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Continued from here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1960194&start=1980

Good discussion on Garuba.

I was sending the text when u have closed the topic lol. Continue with this cool discussion

The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ. Garuba is bigger than people think he is close to 6'10 with shoes and because he has a short neck. He always has been a legit interior even more a center than a PF not a wing that has destroyed bigger guys in term on heigh than him since a kid inside with pure physicality, kids that they were two or three years older than him. He is used to bang down low with guys that are 7-footers or close and 250lb or more but at the same time he can defend guards and wings to well he doesn't have weaknees on defense he can cover a lot of ground to help and reading the defense and can protect the rim at elite level. He is a prodigy in that aspect of the game. On offense he is playing in a total diferent rol than when he was playing with the youth teams in a tough place and still contribute in a lot of ways he has been a top-3 player and probably the best since February growing on offense on a team like Real Madrid.

siFy wrote:I was sending the text when u have closed the topic lol. Continue with this cool discussion

The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ. Garuba is bigger than people think he is close to 6'10 with shoes and because he has a short neck. He always has been a legit interior even more a center than a PF not a wing that has destroyed bigger guys in term on heigh than him since a kid inside with pure physicality, kids that they were two or three years older than him. He is used to bang down low with guys that are 7-footers or close and 250lb or more but at the same time he can defend guards and wings to well he doesn't have weaknees on defense he can cover a lot of ground to help and reading the defense and can protect the rim at elite level. He is a prodigy in that aspect of the game. On offense he is playing in a total diferent rol than when he was playing with the youth teams in a tough place and still contribute in a lot of ways he has been a top-3 player and probably the best since February growing on offense on a team like Real Madrid.

Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

Ruzious wrote:

siFy wrote:I was sending the text when u have closed the topic lol. Continue with this cool discussion

The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ. Garuba is bigger than people think he is close to 6'10 with shoes and because he has a short neck. He always has been a legit interior even more a center than a PF not a wing that has destroyed bigger guys in term on heigh than him since a kid inside with pure physicality, kids that they were two or three years older than him. He is used to bang down low with guys that are 7-footers or close and 250lb or more but at the same time he can defend guards and wings to well he doesn't have weaknees on defense he can cover a lot of ground to help and reading the defense and can protect the rim at elite level. He is a prodigy in that aspect of the game. On offense he is playing in a total diferent rol than when he was playing with the youth teams in a tough place and still contribute in a lot of ways he has been a top-3 player and probably the best since February growing on offense on a team like Real Madrid.

Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

siFy wrote:The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ.

Garuba might end up being a fantastic defensive player and better than OG on that end, but this kind of exaggeration just kills your credibility.

OG is one of the best defensive players in the NBA. If the Raptors were better and he didn't miss so many games he'd be in consideration for 1st team all defense. He's statistically the most versatile defender in the last 2 seasons. Can legitimately guard the league's best players 1-5. Elite ISO defender and rates as a top tier defensive player in most advanced stats. Passes the eye test.

Considering the fact that OG has actually proven to be an elite defender at the NBA level maybe we should wait before proclaiming he's "not close" to Usman

Ruzious wrote:

siFy wrote:I was sending the text when u have closed the topic lol. Continue with this cool discussion

The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ. Garuba is bigger than people think he is close to 6'10 with shoes and because he has a short neck. He always has been a legit interior even more a center than a PF not a wing that has destroyed bigger guys in term on heigh than him since a kid inside with pure physicality, kids that they were two or three years older than him. He is used to bang down low with guys that are 7-footers or close and 250lb or more but at the same time he can defend guards and wings to well he doesn't have weaknees on defense he can cover a lot of ground to help and reading the defense and can protect the rim at elite level. He is a prodigy in that aspect of the game. On offense he is playing in a total diferent rol than when he was playing with the youth teams in a tough place and still contribute in a lot of ways he has been a top-3 player and probably the best since February growing on offense on a team like Real Madrid.

Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

I don't see that comparison at all and they have a some things in common like an amazing constancy for the rebounds and that they are tough in the post with an amazing low center of gravity and both can strech the floor Usman has a corner three too lol has been shooting much better with much better release late of the season if you let him alone he is going to shoot he is shooting a 38% from three since December it' the way that his coach use him I see that like a waste for the versatily that this kid has but it is what it is.

But Usman is much more athletic than PJ, Garuba is like a traditional big with the pick and roll game finishing inside or try to overpower or outrebound inside that can create a lot of game in the high post with his vision an can handle the ball a little bit especially in transition he has the tendencies of the big mans but he is so versatile that he can defend inside and outside players. The best position for Usman during all his short career has been the Center because that position is the most natural for him and the way he play he can do a lot more

AbC? wrote:

siFy wrote:The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ.

Garuba might end up being a fantastic defensive player and better than OG on that end, but this kind of exaggeration just kills your credibility.

OG is one of the best defensive players in the NBA. If the Raptors were better and he didn't miss so many games he'd be in consideration for 1st team all defense. He's statistically the most versatile defender in the last 2 seasons. Can legitimately guard the league's best players 1-5. Elite ISO defender and rates as a top tier defensive player in most advanced stats. Passes the eye test.

Considering the fact that OG has actually proven to be an elite defender at the NBA level maybe we should wait before proclaiming he's "not close" to Usman

They are diferent yeah maybe I exaggerated but Usman is a much better rim protector and a diferent type of player on defense one is more a wing and other is a big man. Usman is more a type of Ben Wallace player on defense an anchor that can change with everyone and be alert to protect the rim at the same time he is great on invidivual defense defending the guy with the ball but on team defense and off the ball is really good too

siFy wrote:

AbC? wrote:

siFy wrote:The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ.

Garuba might end up being a fantastic defensive player and better than OG on that end, but this kind of exaggeration just kills your credibility.

OG is one of the best defensive players in the NBA. If the Raptors were better and he didn't miss so many games he'd be in consideration for 1st team all defense. He's statistically the most versatile defender in the last 2 seasons. Can legitimately guard the league's best players 1-5. Elite ISO defender and rates as a top tier defensive player in most advanced stats. Passes the eye test.

Considering the fact that OG has actually proven to be an elite defender at the NBA level maybe we should wait before proclaiming he's "not close" to Usman

They are diferent yeah maybe I exaggerated but Usman is a much better rim protector and a diferent type of player on defense one is more a wing and other is a big man. Usman is more a type of Ben Wallace player on defense an anchor that can change with everyone and be alert to protect the rim at the same time he is great on invidivual defense defending the guy with the ball but on team defense and off the ball is really good too

Ben Wallace was an amazingly explosive athlete in his prime years. There was nobody like him. I don't see that at all with Garuba I don't think it's fair to Garuba or Wallace to compare them, tbh.

Really the appeal with Garuba's defense is all about versatility to me. You can legitimately start and finish games with him at center and he'll hold his own there. But he's also fantastic defensively against guards, even smaller quicker guards who make a living attacking switches. In terms of roster construction that makes him a very valuable piece.

Ruzious wrote:

siFy wrote:

AbC? wrote:
Garuba might end up being a fantastic defensive player and better than OG on that end, but this kind of exaggeration just kills your credibility.

OG is one of the best defensive players in the NBA. If the Raptors were better and he didn't miss so many games he'd be in consideration for 1st team all defense. He's statistically the most versatile defender in the last 2 seasons. Can legitimately guard the league's best players 1-5. Elite ISO defender and rates as a top tier defensive player in most advanced stats. Passes the eye test.

Considering the fact that OG has actually proven to be an elite defender at the NBA level maybe we should wait before proclaiming he's "not close" to Usman

They are diferent yeah maybe I exaggerated but Usman is a much better rim protector and a diferent type of player on defense one is more a wing and other is a big man. Usman is more a type of Ben Wallace player on defense an anchor that can change with everyone and be alert to protect the rim at the same time he is great on invidivual defense defending the guy with the ball but on team defense and off the ball is really good too

Ben Wallace was an amazingly explosive athlete in his prime years. There was nobody like him. I don't see that at all with Garuba I don't think it's fair to Garuba or Wallace to compare them, tbh.

I shouldn't say that lol Is a tough comparison yeah and probably not fair put that pressure but I think is that type of player on defense if you let him he can carry a defense.

Charm wrote:

Ruzious wrote:

siFy wrote:I was sending the text when u have closed the topic lol. Continue with this cool discussion

The thing is that OG wish have the defense of Usman. He is not close to Usman in term of defense and IQ. Garuba is bigger than people think he is close to 6'10 with shoes and because he has a short neck. He always has been a legit interior even more a center than a PF not a wing that has destroyed bigger guys in term on heigh than him since a kid inside with pure physicality, kids that they were two or three years older than him. He is used to bang down low with guys that are 7-footers or close and 250lb or more but at the same time he can defend guards and wings to well he doesn't have weaknees on defense he can cover a lot of ground to help and reading the defense and can protect the rim at elite level. He is a prodigy in that aspect of the game. On offense he is playing in a total diferent rol than when he was playing with the youth teams in a tough place and still contribute in a lot of ways he has been a top-3 player and probably the best since February growing on offense on a team like Real Madrid.

Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

Charm and Sify, you guys are obviously pretty high on Garuba.

Curious how high you rank him among all other available prospects in this year's draft?

Hal14 wrote:

Charm wrote:

Ruzious wrote:Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

Charm and Sify, you guys are obviously pretty high on Garuba.

Curious how high you rank him among all other available prospects in this year's draft?

It's tough because a defensive-minded guy really has to be a top-10 defender in the league to be recognized as any kind of star, and that doesn't leave much margin for error. He'll probably rank in the 7-12 range of my final board, but he still has high-leverage games ahead of him, and there's potential for his stock to move either direction.

Hal14 wrote:

Charm wrote:

Ruzious wrote:Like a young taller PJ Tucker - without the corner 3 shot?

I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

Charm and Sify, you guys are obviously pretty high on Garuba.

Curious how high you rank him among all other available prospects in this year's draft?

I don't know much about other kids on this draft only about him lol but if Advija and Hayes were a top 10 picks he is much better than both this kid already has impacted in Euroleague only for the Playoffs versus Efes no one kid of 18-19 has done that maybe only Luka.

I'm sure he is much more mature than a lot of those kids in the draft he always has been more mature that his age says and had played with older people than him since 14 or 15 he go trough a lot of pressure in those years by his coach the fans of his team the level of the leagues he is a professional basketball player already and doesn't look like a kid at all you don't going to have stupid things with him be in one of the best teams in Europe playing at highest level 90 games with only 2-3 days of rest and most important be one of the best players of his team with 18-19 it's really tough. I'm sure he is going to impact inmediately in the team who draft him. His floor is going to be good that's for sure and still have a lot of upside.

Charm wrote:

Hal14 wrote:

Charm wrote:
I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

Charm and Sify, you guys are obviously pretty high on Garuba.

Curious how high you rank him among all other available prospects in this year's draft?

It's tough because a defensive-minded guy really has to be a top-10 defender in the league to be recognized as any kind of star, and that doesn't leave much margin for error. He'll probably rank in the 7-12 range of my final board, but he still has high-leverage games ahead of him, and there's potential for his stock to move either direction.

Well I think about a guy like Robert Williams on the Celtics. Very limited in terms of scoring. He's 6'8" and on offense he's a lob threat off PnR, sets good screens, scores on put-backs and dump offs and is an excellent passing big man who can really hit cutters, kick it out to shooters, etc. Similar offensive game to Garuba except Williams literally has no jump shot whatsoever outside of the paint and also can't really put the ball on the floor and attack off the dribble from outside the paint either.

But, Garuba at least can shoot the ball decently from the outside, can attack off the dribble decently. Williams however is a better lob threat and rim runner with his 7'6" wingspan and 40 inch vertical. But overall, they're similar offensively in a lot of ways.

And both fo them are excellent defenders. Outside of Marcus Smart (2 time defending 1st team all defense), Williams is the best defender on the celtics, really disrupts offenses with his presence inside, can block perimeter jumpers, good rim protector, good help defender, aggressive to wreak havoc on D without making silly mistakes, etc. So some similarities on D as well. Both high energy guys who make smart plays, winning plays. And they don't demand the ball on offense - they both have high impact on the game in many other ways, allowing the other guys on the team to handle the ball more and shoot it more..

Anyways, you might think a guy like that (elite defender, limited on offense to just put-backs, dump offs, setting screens, making good passes and occasional lob/spot up shooting) can't be a star in this league but Robert Williams this season was actually top 10 in the entire NBA in PER, TS%, Rebounding %, Blocks %, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, BPM). Williams BPM was 1st on the Celtics, by far, yes, he was even well ahead of Tatum. Not bad for a 23 year old kid only in his 3rd season (and missed a ton of games to injury his first 2 years).

People would be talking about Williams as a budding star in this league but you don't it as much because he can't seem to stay healthy. He was only able to start 13 games all year and most of the season he was on minutes restriction due to various injury concerns.

Bottom line, Garuba could be like a Robert Williams but a much more durable, less injury prone Robert Williams - less of an above the rim game but more of a shooting/driving threat.

siFy wrote:

Hal14 wrote:

Charm wrote:
I think a (very) optimistic outlook would be something like Kawhi on the perimeter, Draymond in the paint. A more sober expectation is more like you said, a jumbo PJ Tucker.

His 3-point shot has been critiqued to the point that it's probably a bit underrated...a year ago he rarely attempted 3's and shot a worrying 53% from the line. This year he's improved significantly, tripling his 3-point attempt rate and shooting 31% from behind the arc, 64% from the line. He's clearly ahead of where Tucker was at the same age, and even the slightest marginal improvement from here would make him a respectable floor spacer. He's certainly no worse than other top PF-adjacent prospects Mobley, Kuminga, Barnes, Jones, and Johnson.

Charm and Sify, you guys are obviously pretty high on Garuba.

Curious how high you rank him among all other available prospects in this year's draft?

I don't know much about other kids on this draft only about him lol but if Advija and Hayes were a top 10 picks he is much better than both this kid already has impacted in Euroleague only for the Playoffs versus Efes no one kid of 18-19 has done that maybe only Luka.

I'm sure he is much more mature than a lot of those kids in the draft he always has been more mature that his age says and had played with older people than him since 14 or 15 he go trough a lot of pressure in those years by his coach the fans of his team the level of the leagues he is a professional basketball player already and doesn't look like a kid at all you don't going to have stupid things with him be in one of the best teams in Europe playing at highest level and most important be one of the best players of his team with 18-19 it's really tough. I'm sure he is going to impact inmediately in the team who draft him. His floor is going to be good that's for sure and still have a lot of upside.

Basically agree with all this. Deni was ridiculously overrated for how little he produced against serious competition. Hayes also saw relatively modest competition, but at least showed flashes of being a high-volume lead guard type, which can be worth a swing in the top-10. Garuba’s much safer than either, and has an interesting enough ceiling to justify the top-10 pick.

I know I’m being difficult about this, but Garuba just moves differently on the perimeter than any big man I’ve seen, and he moves differently in the paint than any wing I’ve seen. Really defies comparison for me, which makes me feel concerned that i may be underrating him.

Charm wrote:I know I’m being difficult about this, but Garuba just moves differently on the perimeter than any big man I’ve seen, and he moves differently in the paint than any wing I’ve seen. Really defies comparison for me, which makes me feel concerned that i may be underrating him.

If anything it's the opposite. You are over rating him.

What would be Garuba's position on offense in nowadays' NBA? PF?

GSWFan1994 wrote:What would be Garuba's position on offense in nowadays' NBA? PF?

dunkmeister

16+14 Garuba leading Real Madrid to the Acb finals and making a three and a basket plus foul in the clutch. **** monster all the time playing in the Power Forward position that's even more impressive when he is more a center.

I have never seen a kid outmuscling and outrebound guys in the Acb like Garuba at his age what a **** motor he has the mentality that he has is really impressive. 14 rebounds in Europe is really hard, Most young player to catch 14 rebounds in a Acb Playoffs game and the most young who has done a double-double in the Playoff too. He had a double double in the first half and then he has won the game in the cluch well at the same time he almost lost the game with a stupid goaltending trying to catch the rebound of a 3 but he has fixed that play catching an offensive rebound a making a basket plus foul.

And shooting really well. The three isn't going to be a problem for him that's for sure he remember me of Kawhi in that aspect. Amazing how he has improved his shooting during the season