Tim Duncan 8th best player ever?

[WillC]

I have combined the rankings of the best players of all-time from nine different publications to create a master list of the best players ever.

One comment that was made in another forum was that Tim Duncan doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 let alone 8th. I personally think he is so good that he almost guaranteed his team a championship. Obviously his great support cast (and coach) helped, but he was genuinely an elite player throughout his career.

Take a look at the rankings and let me know your thoughts. I'd also appreciate your feedback on the rankings of George Gervin, David Robinson, etc.

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.co ... story.html

08 – Tim Duncan
Awards: 4 x NBA champion, 2 x Regular Season MVP, 3 x Finals MVP, 9 x All-NBA 1st Team, 13 x All-Star, 8 x All-Defensive 1st Team, Rookie of the Year
Numbers: 21.4ppg, 11.7rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg
Words: “He excelled as one of the few big guys polished enough to punish players down low and talented enough to guard quicker players on the other end. He made everyone else better and came through when it mattered” (Bill Simmons).

[Nolan]

I think he's a top 10 player but I really don't agree with your list. Putting Kobe and Oscar above Hakeem is just blasphemy.

[WillC]

I think he's a top 10 player but I really don't agree with your list. Putting Kobe and Oscar above Hakeem is just blasphemy.

I'm sure Kobe and Oscar fans would say it is blasphemy if I put Hakeem ahead of them.

You can never please everyone with these lists.

[Donald Kaufman]

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Russell

Those guys are locked into the top 10, for sure. TD's definitely not above any of the above, so yeah, 8th looks about right.

[franktony]

I like your list and i agree with Hakeem's position. People tend to evaluate Hakeem only by his peak years (93-95), not his whole career.

He is pretty overrated by his peak years (93-95) and people forget about the rest. He did not play like that his whole career and he only won the title when Jordan left the league to play baseball.

It's a good list overall. I like it

[NashtyNas]

I like your list and i agree with Hakeem's position. People tend to evaluate Hakeem only by his peak years (93-95), not his whole career.

He is pretty overrated by his peak years (93-95) and people forget about the rest. He did not play like that his whole career and he only won the title when Jordan left the league to play baseball.

It's a good list overall. I like it

HUH????

Career averages: ~22 points, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks (THREE!!), 2.5 assists, and nearly two steals...

and in the playoffs, his points went up to nearly 26.

That's for his CAREER. So, your telling me he is over rated based on that? He's CLEARLY ahead of Kobe, you can make a case for the big O but I'd still take him over Oscar due to position.

[franktony]

I like your list and i agree with Hakeem's position. People tend to evaluate Hakeem only by his peak years (93-95), not his whole career.

He is pretty overrated by his peak years (93-95) and people forget about the rest. He did not play like that his whole career and he only won the title when Jordan left the league to play baseball.

It's a good list overall. I like it

HUH????

Career averages: ~22 points, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks (THREE!!), 2.5 assists, and nearly two steals...

and in the playoffs, his points went up to nearly 26.

That's for his CAREER. So, your telling me he is over rated based on that? He's CLEARLY ahead of Kobe, you can make a case for the big O but I'd still take him over Oscar due to position.

Never said he wasn't great. But some people think he played like that (93-95 stretch) his whole career and it's not true at all. Hakeem avg 31ppg in the playoffs in his championships years. You take his numbers 2 years before and he got 23.8ppg in the playoffs. You get the year before that, he had 18.5ppg shooting 44% FG. Just few examples to tell you what i think.
All I am saying is that people tend to see only the godlike Hakeem (93-95 stretch) and forget about the rest. Not saying that the rest is bad (he had an amazing career), but some young guys think Hakeem played like he did in his peat years his whole career or that he owned Shaq/Robinson or any big of the 80s/90s his whole life and that's just not true.

[Donald Kaufman]

Hakeem was a cut above the rest in an era where there were some amazing centers. He schooled our very own Admiral in the 95 WCF, then took it to a young Shaq in the finals. He had a great career and was a transcendent talent, and for my money he's absolutely a top 10 all-time player, ahead of Kobe and arguably TD as well.

[MAD MAV MAN]

As a Mavs fan, I truly believe TD is true greatness. He and Shaq were the the most dominant players over the last ten years. But I have a question for you Spurs fans. Do you guys really feel as though he is a PF? I know that when David Robinson was the center, he was playing PF but since then I have always felt he was a center. What are yall feelings on this?

[Donald Kaufman]

I think positions are redundant in today's game. He's listed as a 4 but plays more like a 5. If he were drafted to any other team he'd of been a 5 I imagine, he just happened to get drafted to a team that had a HOF center already.

[Compton_Killa10]

As a Mavs fan, I truly believe TD is true greatness. He and Shaq were the the most dominant players over the last ten years. But I have a question for you Spurs fans. Do you guys really feel as though he is a PF? I know that when David Robinson was the center, he was playing PF but since then I have always felt he was a center. What are yall feelings on this?

He was still a 4 after he played beside Rasho and Nazr Mohammed who were both true centers.

[UDRIH14]

Hakeem was a cut above the rest in an era where there were some amazing centers. He schooled our very own Admiral in the 95 WCF, then took it to a young Shaq in the finals. He had a great career and was a transcendent talent, and for my money he's absolutely a top 10 all-time player, ahead of Kobe and arguably TD as well.

yeh you going base of one series to evaluate a player...robinson had the advantage over hakeem b4 that series and if you think hakeem schooled him like that his whole career, then thats just wrong. Same with shaq also.

the only problem i have with most lists is ppl think hakeem, shaq or duncan cant seperate bird/magic in the rankings that these 2 players should be close to each other on the list ranks to make it the immortal 6

i dunno if it is advantage or a disadvantage to limit duncans minutes...because in most comparisons ppl only look at stupid stats, when we all know duncan is not a volume stat padder, he gets his usual minutes and 20/10 to get the win and call it a day instead of playin in scrub minutes when the game is over.

[Donald Kaufman]

Robinson had the advantage over Hakeem? When? In 42 head to head regular season clashes, their numbers are virtually identical, save for a 2ppg average advantage of Hakeem over Robinson. And in the playoffs - where winning and numbers actually count for something - Hakeem slayed Robinson. Need I reproduce them here or are you happy to check for yourself? http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01.

Hakeem was a special player, his post game was out of this world amazing, his D the best I've seen in the modern game. He prowled the floor like a guard. And he won as the man. Robinson, for all his talent, couldn't do that. I rarely see Olajuwon crack the top 20 in most people's sacred lists, which astounds me.

[batmana]

Hakeem has a significant advantage over Robinson in H2H matchups, I've done my own little research on how the centers of the 90s matched up against each other. It's not just that series everyone seems to have in mind. As for Hakeem v. Shaq, it's a bit more different. First of all, Hakeem didn't dominate Shaq as overwhelmingly in the Finals as he did The Admiral, and Shaq took over immediately afterwards. I'm sure you can look it up on basketball-reference if you want to, Shaq outplayed Hakeem career-wise, not the other way around.
As for the top 10, I think Duncan being in it is awesome and sounds just about right:
Jordan, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan,...
I've always wondered though whether Duncan would still be considered the GOAT PF if Karl Malone had won 2 titles... With Malone's amazing longevity and the stats he put, maybe not.
BTW, that list looks like a mess from that point on but I don't have the time to compile my own top 100 right now.

[Donald Kaufman]

Well Hakeem and Shaq are from different eras. Shaq was still in his prime when Hakeem was ready to retire. So it's tough to state with any confidence that Shaq was much better than Hakeem head to head.

[batmana]

Well Hakeem and Shaq are from different eras. Shaq was still in his prime when Hakeem was ready to retire. So it's tough to state with any confidence that Shaq was much better than Hakeem head to head.

To an extent, that is correct. I still think we have a large enough samplesize of games where they were both in their primes (you have to take into account that Hakeem was still in his prime in his 30s). But this is a valid point since, on a similar note, Dwight Howard scored more points than Shaq in their matchups but this only happened after the last game in which Shaq was barely able to move, and on the other hand, Shaq barely played against Dwight in Dwight's early seasons because he was injured for those games.

[Donald Kaufman]

It's rare that rivals are at the peak of their powers at the exact same time. Shaq was dominant in '95 when he faced Dream in the finals, but not to the extent he was in 2000 as a Laker. And obviously Dream was as good as done by then.

And yeah, Dwight was a rookie when Shaq was winding down, so you can't really compare those 2 head to head either.

[batmana]

By the way, Duncan completely owns Shaq in their head-to-head, I'm not sure if there is any other player who so overwhelmingly wins the statistical matchup (having in mind that Duncan was not always playing against Shaq since he had D-Rob or some other center guard him). But their record (including playoffs) is 33-29 in favor of Shaq which just shows you each one of those games was epic. I truly miss Shaq already even though the NBA has not yet entered the post-Shaq era.

[Donald Kaufman]

Yeah Shaq will be missed, more for his personality than his game these days though. I'm looking forward to his commentating career. Dwight seems to want to take the title of NBA class clown now that Shaq has gone but he lacks the humor and charisma to pull it off like Shaq and Barkley before him.