Recent negative sentiment toward PATFO

[-Sammy-]

I think it might be an interesting conversation for Spurs fans: what do y'all think about the recent trend to criticize PATFO and suggest that their reputations are overblown in the wake of the Leonard fiasco? I posted this in one of the many recent threads on the subject.

[imagump1313]

I have definitely noticed it. Its human nature so I just blow it off. People are hating on them because they are successful, just like everyone all of a sudden hates the Warriors now when everyone thought they were cute and loved them 3 years ago.

I listen to NBA radio while driving at work and one of the hosts, Justin Termine just rips on the Spurs almost daily. He refers to the Leonard situation as that the Spurs "Botched" it and it was all their fault. How could they mistreat their own superstar? The Spurs were soo full of themselves that they treated Leonard like he was a nobody. He absolutely hates Pop saying he is demeaning and condescending to reporters and went soo far to say he wishes the Spurs would miss the playoffs just because we sit players to rest them.

[G R E Y]

Interesting thread and good post about it in the original thread, Sammy. I don't think it's just in the wake of the Leonard fiasco, but that that itself is part of the pattern: whenever something out of the ordinary happens with the Spurs, others try to use it to chip away at the longevity of Spurs’ high standards and success.

Part of it is human nature, as gump says. Another part is the lax approach to news/media and posting. One aspect of it I addressed in my response to the original poster, namely, misrepresenting information by taking it out of context. This is a problem on two fronts in that the original information does not get the basic respect of being presented accurately (something that should be dealt with on the Forum), and that people just respond to whatever is presented before them (if that).

Isolating quotes to skew the original intent is a variation of those who blatantly chose to believe that Tony criticized Leonard's injury when, in fact, had they watched all five minutes of the video (or bothered to include the last part), they'd have to face the proper context of Tony actually supporting Leonard. (That Leonard was reportedly 'furious' with Tony for the comments reflects a deeper issue - either he didn't bother digging further or chose to believe what he wanted for his own reasons. If true, neither is aboveboard; both are telling).

Others still isolate an initial part of a situation to make an unsubstantiated point while ignoring the conclusion which actually disproves said point ie/ saying that LMA requested a trade to try and poke holes in the Spurs culture, while ignoring the fact that LMA and Pop worked things out, and LMA had a resurgent season while being a consummate teammate which actually speaks so well of the Spurs culture.

Then there are the specious comparisons, so general as to render the point useless ie/ LMA and Leonard both asked for trades so there must be something wrong with the Spurs. Even a cursory, two minute look at the details of each situation and the comparison and conclusion fall apart.

EDIT to add Danny's podcast in which what was reported he never actually said: As a show of support for Leonard getting a second opinion, Danny wished he had been more cautious with his groin pull (initial diagnosis), but because he is competitive, he returned too soon and by the end of the season he had a groin tear (final medical exam). And this somehow made headlines as Spurs misdiagnosing him. He even retweeted those who called out the blatant false reporting. The false reporting still somehow gets posted, even though transcripts were provided, and it takes four minutes to verify.

Those who don't bother to click the links to read anything and just spew hatred, however unfounded the reasons, are most transparent but no less frustrating. Outright inaccuracies and lies are repeated and over time are reposted and accepted as fact (any of the above). It’s an element of the GB that sometimes makes it unpleasant to wade through.

Troublesome trends, all, and maybe they’re a slice of a larger issue of a Twitterverse that presents premises as facts, encourages knee-jerk reactions, and the doubling down on narratives without examining their merits. I’d go on a rant about making 1984 required reading for all, but I’ve gone on long enough.

Resorting to bad arguments and misrepresented facts to try to discredit PATFO speaks for itself.

[Donald Kaufman]

Well, our two best players requested trades in consecutive years. Is that all on PATFO? Nope, but they're part of it.

I don't think they should be immune from criticism in losing a top 3 player (when healthy) either. Again, there are many sides to this story, but PATFO are an integral part. They're culpable.

I actually agree with a lot of what people are saying in that thread: we're great because we drafted Timmy. That's it. He's the common thread through our titles, and we started becoming just another team when he retired.

[G R E Y]

Thanks for proving the point. Amazing lol

[Donald Kaufman]

There's a point?

[UDRIH14]

the side of the story is the media aint disclosing about kawhis camp which they are hiding from the masses...

his new agency run by some father and son partnership, they are worth 3.2b and just bought out that agency for 5m-10m, they mainly deal with nfl clients, now looking at expanding into nba with kawhi as their first client

from that 9th game onwards, he went through 8 doctors, that 8th doctor recommended by the agency mainly deals with nfl clients who diagnose him and saying what he wanted to hear to get that all clear to shut down...from that date he rehabilitated his own method which had nothing to do with the spurs or never updated them on progress, yet the media/camp make it seem the spurs are responsible for his lingering injury when he was rehabbing on his own for more then half the season....

dont have a problem with patfo how they run their organization, but that should get rid of that favoritism bs with t he veterans on the team...especially when it comes to handing out loyalty contracts to players who continue to stink it up but living on pass contributions is lame at the expense of emerging players who leave for other teams cause they got low balled...

[popfan]

Interesting conversations are more of what this board needs.

I'll offer several reasons for the trend.

1. PATFO is not mainstream NBA

Jerry West is mainstream. He's a southerner. He's the bagman for the NBA. His job is to turn water into wine which he does with copious amount of help of the NBA front office. LAL and GS are his greatest successes. West is an NBA insider. His teams are supposed to win NBA titles and they do.

Mike D'Antoni is mainstream. Mike is Italian. His disregard for defense and fixation on scoring brings joy to the NBA. He creates teams that are intended to rival West's teams in the playoffs. His teams are not supposed to win NBA titles and they don't.

PATFO is not mainstream. Pop's parents are Serbian and Croatian. Pop's actually turns water into wine without the help of the NBA front office. He defies the commish. He objects to trades intended to aide West (eg, Pau Gasol to LAL). His sits players. He avoids drafting players from mainstream colleges opting instead choosing foreign players or players from small colleges. He speaks Russian (I believe, no?). He regularly criticizes Trump. Nevertheless, his teams win NBA titles though they're not supposed to.

2. Phil Jackson effect

Jackson -- a crusty Nordic bully from Wyoming -- likes to belittle rivals that beat him. Look at LeBron. LBJ dismissed Jackson & the NYK prompting Jackson's infantile "posse" rant in an attempt to de-legitimize LBJ's partners. Beat Jackson and he'll belittle you.

After coaching several dynasties, Jackson (through his Kobe-led Lakers) started losing to Pop's Spurs. Jackson's infantile response was that real greatness was in dynasties, ie, winning back to back titles was the path to enlightenment, a sign of true greatness. Jackson was a great coach. He clearly had a better rapport with Rodman than Pop did. Yet PATFO created its success from nothing. Jackson merely benefited from West's work with LAL and from MJ's greatness. Jackson -- threatened by the Spurs success -- has publicly promoted his legacy at the expense of Pop. With Jackson's failure as a GM, his legacy and legitimacy has taken a hit. Yet there still some who will beat his drum.

3. Kick 'em when they're down

PATFO sits atop the NBA despite the recent success of GS. (Organizationally, GS is structured more like a disruptor than a major corporation.) Look at all the coaches and executives in the NBA who started under PATFO. Pop is the US Olympic coach. Look at the incredible success of Kawhi. In 2018, it could be argued that PATFO is unofficially running a third of the NBA. Yet in his professional prime, Pop just lost his wife. He's nearly 70. He's facing his mortality. In addition, his best player (Kawhi) just betrayed the Spurs for riches. It must be a tough time for Pop.

After Pop's wife died, I noticed a trend. Nearly all of Pop's assistant coaches were invited to interview for jobs. I thought "the buzzards are circling...perhaps they're testing our assistants to see if Rome is ready to fall." Then Kawhi's new agent started the rumors about Kawhi wanting to leave. Simultaneous, Magic Johnson (who's already been slapped by the NBA for tampering) ranted about how his Lakers would pull stars from other teams. Meanwhile Tony Parker made his customary threat to leave the Spurs as he approached free agency...nothing new with Tony. Combined, it seemed harsh considering that Pop was surely struggling with the loss of his wife.

Nothing could bring more joy to the Lakers brass (past and present) than to dismantle PATFO. (Note: the Lakers hate the Spurs.) Nothing could do more for Brett Brown's career in Philadelphia than to pick off the pieces of the Spurs org, which he's tried in the past including a run on Manu. Nothing could make the Warriors happier than to watch PATFO collapse, knowing that Lacomb has been publicly pimping his org for years as the non-mainstream heir-apparent to PATFO despite having no resemblance to PATFO. (If you disbelieve this, then take note of Kerr's anti-Trump remarks which conspicuously follow Pop's remarks or take note of West's wily attempt to dislodge Chip Engelland from the Spurs when Kerr was first hired. He's some speculation -- if Pop retires as US Olympic coach, Lacomb will be the first to promote witless, pot-smoking Kerr as Pop's successor to insure that Warriors populate the US Olympic team for years to come.) Nothing could make Tony Parker happier than to distance himself from Pop and the NBA as he prepares for full-time team ownership in the Euroleague. Nothing could make Kawhi's uncle/agent happier than to force the Spurs to trade Kawhi so that his uncle can make a splash in the NBA.

Rivals have been poking at the Spurs for years. They have their agendas. After losing his wife, Pop is facing difficult personal and professional decisions as he approaches 70. There are people in the NBA who dislike PATFO, who viewed this summer as the time to make their move -- kick 'em when they're down.

[G R E Y]

Interesting conversations are more of what this board needs.

Spoiler:

I'll offer several reasons for the trend.

1. PATFO is not mainstream NBA

Jerry West is mainstream. He's a southerner. He's the bagman for the NBA. His job is to turn water into wine which he does with copious amount of help of the NBA front office. LAL and GS are his greatest successes. West is an NBA insider. His teams are supposed to win NBA titles and they do.

Mike D'Antoni is mainstream. Mike is Italian. His disregard for defense and fixation on scoring brings joy to the NBA. He creates teams that are intended to rival West's teams in the playoffs. His teams are not supposed to win NBA titles and they don't.

PATFO is not mainstream. Pop's parents are Serbian and Croatian. Pop's actually turns water into wine without the help of the NBA front office. He defies the commish. He objects to trades intended to aide West (eg, Pau Gasol to LAL). His sits players. He avoids drafting players from mainstream colleges opting instead choosing foreign players or players from small colleges. He speaks Russian (I believe, no?). He regularly criticizes Trump. Nevertheless, his teams win NBA titles though they're not supposed to.

2. Phil Jackson effect

Jackson -- a crusty Nordic bully from Wyoming -- likes to belittle rivals that beat him. Look at LeBron. LBJ dismissed Jackson & the NYK prompting Jackson's infantile "posse" rant in an attempt to de-legitimize LBJ's partners. Beat Jackson and he'll belittle you.

After coaching several dynasties, Jackson (through his Kobe-led Lakers) started losing to Pop's Spurs. Jackson's infantile response was that real greatness was in dynasties, ie, winning back to back titles was the path to enlightenment, a sign of true greatness. Jackson was a great coach. He clearly had a better rapport with Rodman than Pop did. Yet PATFO created its success from nothing. Jackson merely benefited from West's work with LAL and from MJ's greatness. Jackson -- threatened by the Spurs success -- has publicly promoted his legacy at the expense of Pop. With Jackson's failure as a GM, his legacy and legitimacy has taken a hit. Yet there still some who will beat his drum.

3. Kick 'em when they're down

PATFO sits atop the NBA despite the recent success of GS. (Organizationally, GS is structured more like a disruptor than a major corporation.) Look at all the coaches and executives in the NBA who started under PATFO. Pop is the US Olympic coach. Look at the incredible success of Kawhi. In 2018, it could be argued that PATFO is unofficially running a third of the NBA. Yet in his professional prime, Pop just lost his wife. He's nearly 70. He's facing his mortality. In addition, his best player (Kawhi) just betrayed the Spurs for riches. It must be a tough time for Pop.

After Pop's wife died, I noticed a trend. Nearly all of Pop's assistant coaches were invited to interview for jobs. I thought "the buzzards are circling...perhaps they're testing our assistants to see if Rome is ready to fall." Then Kawhi's new agent started the rumors about Kawhi wanting to leave. Simultaneous, Magic Johnson (who's already been slapped by the NBA for tampering) ranted about how his Lakers would pull stars from other teams. Meanwhile Tony Parker made his customary threat to leave the Spurs as he approached free agency...nothing new with Tony. Combined, it seemed harsh considering that Pop was surely struggling with the loss of his wife.

Nothing could bring more joy to the Lakers brass (past and present) than to dismantle PATFO. (Note: the Lakers hate the Spurs.) Nothing could do more for Brett Brown's career in Philadelphia than to pick off the pieces of the Spurs org, which he's tried in the past including a run on Manu. Nothing could make the Warriors happier than to watch PATFO collapse, knowing that Lacomb has been publicly pimping his org for years as the non-mainstream heir-apparent to PATFO despite having no resemblance to PATFO. (If you disbelieve this, then take note of Kerr's anti-Trump remarks which conspicuously follow Pop's remarks or take note of West's wily attempt to dislodge Chip Engelland from the Spurs when Kerr was first hired. He's some speculation -- if Pop retires as US Olympic coach, Lacomb will be the first to promote witless, pot-smoking Kerr as Pop's successor to insure that Warriors populate the US Olympic team for years to come.) Nothing could make Tony Parker happier than to distance himself from Pop and the NBA as he prepares for full-time team ownership in the Euroleague. Nothing could make Kawhi's uncle/agent happier than to force the Spurs to trade Kawhi so that his uncle can make a splash in the NBA.

Rivals have been poking at the Spurs for years. They have their agendas. After losing his wife, Pop is facing difficult personal and professional decisions as he approaches 70. There are people in the NBA who dislike PATFO, who viewed this summer as the time to make their move -- kick 'em when they're down.

Well thanks for contributing to it. I'm not sure to what extent their respective ethnic backgrounds impact their positions in the NBA landscape (mainstream or otherwise), but the patterns that people see are interesting nonetheless.

I do think the Spurs have done things their own way, and being a smaller market team has in some ways helped facilitate that: a sort of out of the way team that is not a natural national media draw with a system in place that sometimes was defiant to the ways of the NBA if these countered the team ethos (DNPs are classic). That the NBA itself has made improvements to the schedule (fewer back-to-back games, and four games in five nights, etc.) shows that we have been ahead of the curve in looking out for players' longevity. It was blatant at times, and the Spurs paid the price for it, literally, but here we are.

I'm not convinced that there's some underlying malice in trying to break apart the PATFO mystique, such as it is, maybe a dislike from a competitive standpoint (even if personal dislike is a factor to some extent). The vultures circle when there's even a hint of cracks (really these are just issues a team deals with), mistaking lack of perfection for decline when the standards are what they have ever been and adhering to them continues. While there's criticism of the Spurs way, it doesn't stop teams from trying to get a piece of it, be it by coach hirings or player acquisitions. You can tell, though, which teams are part way committed to a culture core or skip steps.

To the point about there being a mystique, the irony is that it's really not a secret, but sticking to what drives it is hard. Doing so for so long has reaped the rewards it has for us - and that goes beyond championships, even if these are considered the pinnacle, but the way we get there is at the heart of it.