ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON

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ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#1 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:52 pm

With all the changes the past couple of years, rotations have been an experiment in real time, be it from players out for health reasons, or roster changes, or trying to find the right chemistry. We're far better balanced this season, and so with a mix of vets and young players waiting in the wings, how we manage their minutes and who steps up will be an interesting discussion to revisit.

Sammy brought up a good point in the Game 2 thread about wanting to see Jakob start with LMA. I agree, though the rub is that LMA is both our best PF and C. Had Morris kept his word, think of the balance we'd have had in the front court. That's not to rehash the whole fiasco, it is what it is, but just as a reference point to what we have now, which is a bit of a bind with one player being clearly the best at two positions.

Jakob does yeoman's work and makes a lot of unheralded plays that help the team win: keeping the ball alive on the O boards, setting crushing screens, making good cuts for dunks, and his FT shooting looks improved. But if he starts, and then is subbed, the options are to move LMA to the C, or have Jakob's back-up, two-way signed Drew Eubanks go in.

Carroll, though a capable backup and an improvement defensively, given how he looked in pre-season (all we have to go on at this point) can't really hang with the quick guards and transition game we are implementing. Trey can, but his O game is thus far best described as complementary. So it's a front court by committee, and we're making it work but at any given point either the PF or the C wanes on O. Probably the most potent O combo is Rudy as PF and LMA at C as each can generate his own points. That said, defensively, we're good on the front court. Would a more slow and steady approach have benefited Trey or is having him as the starting PF (partially as a necessity) going to expedite his showing more of his game? He's the one being thrown into the fire this season right now. So far, good rebounding, decent D, and O needs to come along.

Our back court is a blessing of guards who can contribute in various way on both ends, though we're not yet in a position to play Dejounte and Derrick together for long periods as neither can consistently hit the 3 yet, and though Js are coming along, the balance of Dejounte's defense and drives with Bryn's lethal outside threat spaces the court for us well right now. Plus having a one-two punch of PGs who can defend so well is a big benefit. Of course, if LMA continues to give us a couple of 3s most games, it opens the court and forces opposing defenses to have more threats from us to worry about.

But what about Lonnie?? I agree. Fans were chanting his name when he got his first minutes of the season in Game 2. Last season we played Bryn and Derrick in the starting line-up out of necessity, so we're blessed with a 'problem' of incorporating such a talent. It's a known given that the Patty - Beli back court will be phased down, but to expect it after the first few games isn't realistic, as frustrating as that can be. It wouldn't be so glaring if Beli made his shots.

Imagine eventually a combo of Dejounte-Lonnie for the run and gun, or Dejounte-Derrick for the defense (although Lonnie's defense versus the pre-season Rockets was exceptional), or incorporating Bryn with any of them at any point. They do need corporate knowledge seasoning, and Patty and Beli have it in spades, butI really don't think that they will get in the way of the development of our young guys.

DeMar at the SF has been working out well in terms of his getting to his spots and getting his points. If anything, he doesn't have to work as hard for them because we're running more and he doesn't have to handle it as much to facilitate for others.

So we have far better defenders in the line-up, and we have many guards who provide a lot versatility on both ends. Long term, we'll need to address a full time more true SF, and starting C. LMA is that now as we see, but as we phase into getting younger, will Jakob be that guy? As he develops, he needs more range on his shot, and more even more variety to his moves and shots. To his credit, he's reading plays and responding faster this season. He's a smart player and bigs take longer to grow into their full game, so we'll see what his role progresses to.

Luka will eventually be our future PF, and his diverse skill set, though it needs a lot of seasoning, is well suited for a multiple threat game.

Two final points as our season rolls along. With Dejounte back and with his O game growing, the distribution of usage is is already shifting:
Read on Twitter


This isn't affecting LMA or DeMar's scoring so it's a welcome addition. It'll also be affected by mismatch advantages depending on opponent, and what shots opponents give up on any given night. But overall a better balanced and multi-threat O is what we have to look forward to this season.

The other noticeable addition to our game so far is pace. I mentioned in the Game 2 thread how it stood out that we're taking more shots, but didn't realize just how many more possessions we're generating than before:
Read on Twitter


So, very finally, and I don't have an answer to this yet, what's your ideal starting line-up given the current roster? What minutes adjustments would you make, keeping in mind we're on Game 3, and let's say we're giving Lonnie and Carroll consistent minutes.

I'd love to see more Lonnie with any of Dejounte / Derrick or Patty (as opposed to his handling it as a PG like he did in Summer League). That's not to cut out Beli's minutes drastically, he's very good at spot up shots and when he's hitting them the quick easy points are welcome, but incorporate Lonnie more. It is also up to him to show something at both ends when he gets them.

We've heard Trey has a 3 shot, but have yet to really see it. Not sure if it's a confidence issue or just incorporating him into the system and his building a contribution from the D out. But Carroll in a more half court set or a quick 3 here and there is a dynamic we could use as a solid compliment to a grind line-up (say, DJ, Derrick, DC, LMA, Jakob for tall, physical defensive purposes when the situation calls for it).
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#2 » by GREY 1769 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:44 pm

So, the Dejounte-Derrick pairing will happen:
Popovich also said he envisions Murray and fellow defensive-minded guard Derrick White playing together more after Murray gets healthy. With White on the second unit and Murray’s playing time limited, the duo hadn’t shared the court much before Monday’s game against Portland.

“You know it makes us deeper if we can do that,” Popovich said, “but that will take a while.”

https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Murray-to-sit-out-half-of-back-to-backs-14569828.php
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#3 » by Ballings7 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:08 am

That's what I'm looking forward to: White and Murray playing together in the 4th qtr.. floor spacing may be iffy at times as neither are "proven" shooters to the league, but Derrick last season into this season, has gotten better at #3p -- but I'd say, Derrick is probably going to be good enough + having DeMar out there who's overall ability, regardless of three, is a load for any team.

Would liek to see DeMar be more of a threat from three, even its 2 or 3 from 1 or 2 games per week. He did pretty well in one game. Aldridge has definitely been consistent there than since his last 1-2 years with Portland, that should be kept up.

Then Aldridge and Gay or (longer-term) Lyles at PF. Lyles can absolutely shoot the ball, he just has to keep coming along. I like his focus on defense, rebounding, and moving the ball in half-court. Solid and is mobile out there.. an upgrade over Cunningham.

Lonnie I want to see some more of, kinda tough to fit him in consistently I'd say, but he's getting some time... Keldon Johnson spot minutes would be cool -- guy can really play on both ends.

Forbes over the last year, has turned into a damn good, reliable shooter... he's looking elite. Clutch too, not afraid to take big shots and executes well.

Carroll is probably best suited for situational match ups and line-ups, depth... and more of a small four than a big three, at this point. But he can play at the four and space, rebound, be tough on defense when needed. Not a bad guy to have on the bench or spot start at PF with Aldridge at C.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#4 » by GREY 1769 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:52 am

Well after the first eleven games, we have a sense of where we're at. Though fans see no rhyme or reason to the rotations, changes have come in the past, and I have a feeling we'll be on to some more soon. Last season we had Jakob and Dante in the starting slots, and both were eventually replaced.

Trey has been a nice addition to our team, and his rebounding has been steadily strong for the most part. Though he has made some shots, it's getting tough to have him put up less than five shots in most games. He complements LMA well in that he does not need the ball in his hands and does some of the dirty inside work, but with Dejounte still finding his way on O, we pretty much have two starters that are not scoring consistently. This puts a lot of pressure on our efficiency by everyone else, and with our faster pace and higher number of shots, it's not a balance we've so far succeeded in figuring out. Like last season, we replaced the two guys who did not score consistently, and reaped positive rewards.

Dejounte will for sure keep starting, but as he is still developing his O game, now I wonder whether we are not better off with Rudy at the starting PF spot. Today he and Trey both played 22 minutes, but Trey has more of a supportive role with LMA rather than a cohesive one. Rudy has more chemistry with LMA because they've played more together, but also because Rudy is yet another player who can better pass to LMA. Tonight we had some nice alley oop and high-low passes which were good additions to our game. We've kept it really basic in the first ten games, and opened it up a bit more tonight. Everyone in the starting line-up except for Trey got a good amount of shots. Rudy is also a good rebounder, but a far more dynamic scorer, can also hit the 3, and he and DeMar are good at finding one another, too. I'm curious how that would go for us: Dejounte, Bryn, DeMar, Rudy, LMA. We have had several scoring droughts, and I wonder whether this combination could mitigate them.

Trey with an outside shot as a PF alongside Jakob who is great at keeping O possessions alive, and on a more movement-oriented bench may be solid. If the question is who scores, well we have Derrick, Patty, Lonnie and DeMarre in various combinations, all of whom can either shoot from the outside or slash, all of whom can pass.

We now have had Dejounte and Derrick for a few minutes together to end the eleventh game, along with Lonnie and Metu plus Beli. Very quick, bouncy, and assertive on O, and Dejounte and Derrick got their hands on several passes. The game was well out of hand, but they played hard and played to their athleticism.

I'm not 100% sold on DeMar at the 3, but he's been efficient and getting to his spots and still scoring. We're still not running as much as we could in the starting unit, but when LMA made the effort to beat his man, when Rudy was in he found LMA down low for easy baskets.

My tough D lineup: Dejounte, Derrick, Demarre, LMA, Jakob. Tall, solid on the perimeter, and meeting a hard presence down low.

I'd love it if Dejounte were now in at least 25 or so minutes, and Derrick up to around 30 minutes with the hope that they play more together. This then opens up minutes for Lonnie with Patty / Bryn. I'd love it if DeMar's sub could be Demarre more than Beli now has it. I get it's also situational, but Lonnie and DeMarre can help us on both ends. I feel bad for Beli but it's now his responsibility to earn his way back to the line-up (I wonder if we're showcasing him for a potential trade and so benching him or shortening his minutes looks bad to that intent? So does him shooting poorly, of course, so it's a pickle).

There's precedent for changes to the starting line-up and rotations, though I think it happened at a later point with Dante than with Jakob last season. I think we need some better D and O balance, and think some changes I've been pondering may help lock us in better together.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#5 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:12 pm

I will continue to reiterate these points in the hope that some type of butterfly effect manifests them. Simply put, the starting line-up isn't gelling as well as it needs to, and I hope that either Rudy or Jakob replace Trey as a starter. We have shown that we play far better together when either is with LMA, and the familiar synergy brings out a far better collective effort and results.

The festively hirsute duo of DeMarre and Lonnie have to have regular minutes, preferably taking more of Beli's. At this point, though he's averaging fewest in his career, it's deserved, but the minutes he is getting is demoralizing to the team. I'm sorry, but you can see it in the body language. When he's scoring as many points playing as we are watching, it's an issue.

Trey is a serviceable Swiss army type, but he plays like he doesn't want to interfere rather than be assertive. These are not necessarily bad, as he plays to his strengths of rebounding and making a 3 here and there. But we get rebounding and some scoring from Jakob, and Rudy is far better at creating for himself. And both are more connected on O with LMA and result in a more engaged LMA.

Beli is a scorer suffering from a bad case of jinxitis and while you don't want to demoralize a guy, the balance of helping the team has to tip the scales at this point.

With Trey and Beli it's like we are catering to their smaller overall games whereas we are at a point of needing to service the team needs and cater more to the broader games of DeMarre and Lonnie.

DeMarre and Lonnie are already better defenders than Beli, with DeMarre capable of making 3s, and Lonnie's otherworldly athleticism and drives altering defenses in our favour.

Finally, the ball in Dejounte's or Patty's or Rudy's hands rather than DeMar's late in games gives us a higher chance of maintaining possessions and scoring.

May these words resonate and find favourable ears and results.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#6 » by Baphomet » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:21 pm

GREY 1769 wrote:Trey is a serviceable Swiss army type, but he plays like he doesn't want to interfere rather than be assertive. These are not necessarily bad, as he plays to his strengths of rebounding and making a 3 here and there. But we get rebounding and some scoring from Jakob, and Rudy is far better at creating for himself. And both are more connected on O with LMA and result in a more engaged LMA.


This is a very good point, and encapsulates my issues with Trey as well. I like Trey's game, but he does play with a certain passivity that at times belies his abilities and what this team could use from him. While his boards are up, I noticed that despite getting more minutes per game than he has over his whole career, he's taking fewer shots. It speaks of either minor on-court chemistry issues, or a coaching design that isn't quite working out at present. I trust it to be fixed as the season goes on.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#7 » by GREY 1769 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:56 pm

Baphomet wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:Trey is a serviceable Swiss army type, but he plays like he doesn't want to interfere rather than be assertive. These are not necessarily bad, as he plays to his strengths of rebounding and making a 3 here and there. But we get rebounding and some scoring from Jakob, and Rudy is far better at creating for himself. And both are more connected on O with LMA and result in a more engaged LMA.


This is a very good point, and encapsulates my issues with Trey as well. I like Trey's game, but he does play with a certain passivity that at times belies his abilities and what this team could use from him. While his boards are up, I noticed that despite getting more minutes per game than he has over his whole career, he's taking fewer shots. It speaks of either minor on-court chemistry issues, or a coaching design that isn't quite working out at present. I trust it to be fixed as the season goes on.

It turns out that even with Trey's less active / more complementary O role, we're I think top 5 in O. It's that we're bottom 5 in D that's a glaring issue. Now, much has been said about Beli and his missing shot, and it's true, and that missing shot makes his poor defense all the more glaring.

But it turns out that the other player whose defense is poor is Bryn, but I think this has been less a focal point up to now because he's been contributing steadily on O with around 14PPG, making him our third leading scorer.

The uncomfortable elephant in the room is this:
Getting physically overpowered at times also has been an issue for the team’s perimeter defenders. When starting shooting guard Bryn Forbes is on the court, opponents are scoring 117 points per 100 possessions, tied for the worst mark on the team with reserve guard Marco Belinelli.

https://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/As-losses-mount-for-Spurs-players-vow-to-14846870.php

And this:
Read on Twitter


I've seen +/- stats where Bryn on the court with DJ, Derrick, and Patty were all negative and positive with him off the court. There's a lot that goes into that, but broadly we see a pattern.

Conundrum:
Read on Twitter


In the Bruno Passos tweet above, he suggested moving Bryn to the bench, DeMar back to the 2, and bringing DeMarre to the starting 3. The trade off is better defense but at what cost to the O?

I think doing the above but also swapping Rudy in for Trey balances out the scoring issue, and bolsters the defense. At some point, though, the guys we have are individually going to have to commit to better communication and effort on the defensive end. We do it in the middle to end of games, just don't start with it, and that's as much a mental aspect as anything else.

Pop has several times said that Bryn's play has earned him a career in the NBA. I'm sure I'm reading too much into it that he didn't say 'with the Spurs' in those times, especially since he's said he hopes we re-sign him when asked about it.

But I do think it's curious given that we have a glut of guards in the system that both Bryn and Beli on the final year of their contracts are getting meaningful minutes. Bryn you can justify more given where he's come from to get to this point, given his understanding of our system, given his important spot up 3 and drives that defenses have to respect. Beli had a decent half last game, and reverted back to looking up to see the offensive bottom. I think we're gearing up for a trade and expiring contracts of sharp shooters may be nice extra incentives to match salaries or dangle to those who need players in these roles. Beli said in the summer in an interview with an Italian paper that he'd love to re-sign with us, and I'd hate to see Bryn go, but with both if we can get better, we have to look at it. This is all speculation on my part and just looking at the roster. I've not heard anything about these two specifically being shopped.

We're clearly moving on from players who do that one single thing very well at the detriment of other areas, and looking at our drafts and acquisitions (and attempts), we are moving more towards more versatile players who can play at both ends.

So, we'll see if we make any trades, but in the meantime, it would be interesting to see a line-up of DJ, DeMar, DeMarre, Rudy, LMA (if not starting, then at some point together) as I think it gives us more balance of D and O. I haven't noticed this as much but I've read others saying DeMarre looks a bit lost at times in our system and makes up for it with hustle. I don't know to what extent his limited minutes are a function of absorbing our system more slowly or what. No question we need to get better defensively, and it's a matter of individual focus and effort as much as anything else, line-up changes included.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#8 » by Baphomet » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:33 pm

It's a precarious balancing act. In a perfect world we'd be able to acquire a good 3&D wing player to plug into the starting line-up who could provide some of Bryn's shooting ability with some much needed defensive steel, but as with any good player, they come at a cost. I feel like a trade is coming, but the who and where are a mystery to me right now.

I have no idea what to expect from DeMarre at this point thanks to his very limited time on the court, but it's clear that the rotations need some balancing and a shake-up so it's possible he can be that guy. He showed enough in the Dallas loss to give at least some cause for optimism in increasing his role, given that his energy and hustle got us back within a few points. If his issues turn out to be systemic, it's difficult to really know without him hitting the floor a bit more. I don't think it can hurt.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#9 » by Baphomet » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:55 pm

GREY 1769 wrote:At some point, though, the guys we have are individually going to have to commit to better communication and effort on the defensive end. We do it in the middle to end of games, just don't start with it, and that's as much a mental aspect as anything else.


And real quick, tangentially related to this, I just had a quick look at our basic offensive stats per quarter: 27th in the league in first quarter points, middle of the pack in the second and fourth quarters, but FIRST in the league by a good margin in points in the third quarter. Very basic and cursory stat that could easily be an early season statistical anomaly (or completely meaningless), but it would add more evidence to this team's almost predictably timed lapses in intensity and mentality.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#10 » by GREY 1769 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:29 pm

So the Patty and Bryn back court worked well enough on O, but was the gamble on the other end. We can't fault their effort on defense, and if that alone extended to other players we'd be better off. When the effort wasn't there, there was a price to pay.

At the end of the first quarter last game, Dejounte went over a screen, poked the ball from behind the ball handler, and ran ahead to take a pass for a dunk. Perfect D to O transition. Our opponent proceeded to pass down the court, and the shooter beat Bryn to his spot and hit an end of Q shot. Pop promptly replaced Bryn with DeMarre. That's what we need more of. The effort, and the consequence for lack of it. You can't get after each guy the same way, true, and Pop knows that, but guys can't also trade good O for lack of effort on D. It's not a matter of replacing one for the other but supplementing, and to whatever extent there's a lack because of effort, whoever it is hopefully rides pine.

The Patty and Bryn back court was a match-up, and addressed our slower starts. I don't think we'll see them start tonight, but I do like Jakob back as a starter next to LMA. They play better together and off of one another.

For defense, at some point soon I hope we see more of the Deounte-Derrick back court together as they were in practice before the season began.

Now that doesn't necessarily mean Patty and Bryn together.

Dear Pop - I think it is time to unleash Lonnie. It is good for him and good for the team, and for team morale to have guys who can contribute in different ways step in and see if they can step up. To whatever extent minutes are a combination of earning them balanced with playing through mistakes, around at least 10 minutes a game is a good start. Take a couple of minutes from Bryn, a couple from DeMar, and around five from Beli. Same for DeMarre who, if he can be discouraged from pointlessly dribbling, has shown he can make up for lack of system understanding with defensive effort and the occasional 3 and a drive.

It's just a better balance if we incorporate them more, and do so each game. We know what we're getting from the current rotations, and at #4, our O isn't the problem. Our defense needs it, and I think guys who are getting fewer minutes are hungry to prove they can contribute.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#11 » by GREY 1769 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:42 pm

So at a quarter of the season in or thereabouts, this is where our players stand individually:
Read on Twitter


Lonnie, DeMarre, Drew, Mezie, and Keldon have to be in a TBD category until they get more meaningful minutes, but for the rest, and even given the requisite caveats of contexts, they pass the eye test.

Beli's on an island of one, and Bryn even with great O and necessary spacing is still a defensive issue and it may be time to trim his minutes a bit as well -- not down to Beli's level, but enough to give Lonnie and DeMarre meaningful playing time each game. DeMar is having his most efficient season so far, but is still at the wrong end defensively. No surprise about Dejounte, but Jakob being so unassuming may in fact surprise that he is quietly putting together a very solid defensive effort game in, game out. Despite starting many games until recently and being a good rebounding surprise and hitting spot up 3s, Trey is about where it seemed he was; his smaller, more specific role is better suited to our needs. Jakob and LMA together is working better for us. LMA is getting some criticism for sporadic energy this season, but even with these ups and downs, he should get up to a net positive with more games with Jakob. His numbers when both he and DeMar are in are a concern, and when we stagger them I think we're better (have to find specific numbers that show it, but I do recall reading them recently).

Derrick as a starter has provided some familiarity and a pace that is more fitting with the current group. Dejounte's sometimes too-fast-for-others pace, some ball handling issues, and decision making of when to get others involved (but didn't) or take it himself has him on the second unit right now. He already showed some good signs of holding up and waiting for teammates rather than barreling into multiple defenders last game, and is saying all the right things in his current role. I think it's temporary but necessary for the team to settle in, especially as the line-up has kept changing with his not playing back-to-backs, but at least he's playing with guys who run more and he's still getting his full minutes. Derrick's the better P&R PG right now, and has better chemistry with LMA, so it's a good switch.

I'd love to see more of the Dejounte and Derrick tandem, though, especially when we need D stops that give our help D a better chance to step in.

Lonnie was flat out incredible in his minutes last game, and you could feel the energy he provides and how it lifts the team and propels teammates to run in the drafting of his spirited effort on both ends. We need all we can get of this right now and he seems to be that central guy who's bursting to fill that role.

DeMarre doesn't always provide O consistently but he doesn't settle either (mixes up Js with drives) and is ever dependable on D. His physicality and consistent defensive effort are also energy points from which we have and should continue to feed off of more.

Lonnie and DeMarre as the first off the bench subs for the 2 and 3 could work with Dejounte (especially Lonnie) given that we put Rudy in as the first sub in for Jakob and LMA stays on the floor and provides O rebounding chances.

We have not finished games strong, so whatever we've been doing needs a shake-up. If we're running and slashing from D to O transition or more movement-oriented scoring chances, then DeMar slowing things down to create needs to happen less late in games. He's not getting the calls he should, but we can't rely on whistles as you never know which way they'll go. Any one of Patty, Rudy, or even LMA (depending on whether he has it going) are viable options. Better to ride the hot hand than give it to the familiar one for its own sake. We know what we've got with the latter and that we need to improve. We have other options to try to that end.

I like the changes we've made so far, and hope mainly that we now incorporate Lonnie and DeMarre a bit more, and more consistently. We have them, and they've shown they can raise both the floor and ceiling, so let's use them.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#12 » by Ballings7 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:46 pm

Yeah Carroll and Lonnie really need to play a bit more each game. Belinelli should switch rotation-frequency with Carroll. Keldon Johnson, if had to decide, would start sharing minutes with Belinelli in the least.

It'd be ideal if later in the season Walker will have played well enough to start next to White, and in his development be a utility-wing on both ends with energy and athleticism, scoring at SG, but not being soley-reliant on offense to break the flow and balance. Bring Forbes off the bench and play with Mills, Gay, Carroll, Lyles, Murray (for now) as a shooter and defensive pest to 2nd units.

This would be ideal for starting line-up:

White
Walker
DeRozan
Aldridge
Poetl

Forbes starting and finishing games should end soon. Like said, that was good and worked when it was forced to basically play him last season... but that isn't something that was going to be sustainable. Develop Walker more to take his spot by giving him regular rotation minutes as a defender, ball-mover/handler, and scorer with good athleticism and decent size at SG. Then, to supplant Forbes offensive, and upgrade on his defensive shortcomings -- Start Lonnie at SG.

I think its time to start mixing in the younger players into the rotation for the vets to be complimented and the other way around.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#13 » by Ballings7 » Sun Dec 1, 2019 11:16 pm

The lack of collective size in the backcourt/wing in the active rortation, continues to hurt this team on both ends.. mainly due to Mills, Belinelli, and Forbes. Also collectively are relatively one-dimensonal offensively at the same time. The necessary defense + offense complimentary pieces are just not really present to do this with good results.

White plays bigger than his size, but without proper size complimentary around him, will also get exposed naturally at times more than he should.

Detroit is a big team with some athletes and are favorable to take advantage of that.

Walker and Carroll not playing at all so far in the Detroit game is beyond me, and feeds into the above. Keldon Johnson is another guy who with some reps at times (like over Belinelli), has the tools on both ends to produce more naturally and in diferent than areas. He also has NBA-level confidence. Play him!

Pop is playing too many undersized wings in the rotation, and not nearly enough wings with decent or better size, who are available and are not bad players or have the tools to produce in other areas given the time. That's not going to hold up well over the long-term. That lack of size will be exploited on both ends when the reliance on them in being part of the rotation every game -- rather than just spurts or less regular-rotation minutes.

Two or all of Mills, Belinelli, Forbes have their shot off and their all in the rotation? Thats three players who don't bring much else to the game, while they aren't being complimented at the same time.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#14 » by GREY 1769 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 9:05 pm

Ballings7 wrote:The lack of collective size in the backcourt/wing in the active rortation, continues to hurt this team on both ends.. mainly due to Mills, Belinelli, and Forbes. Also collectively are relatively one-dimensonal offensively at the same time. The necessary defense + offense complimentary pieces are just not really present to do this with good results.

White plays bigger than his size, but without proper size complimentary around him, will also get exposed naturally at times more than he should.

Detroit is a big team with some athletes and are favorable to take advantage of that.

Walker and Carroll not playing at all so far in the Detroit game is beyond me, and feeds into the above. Keldon Johnson is another guy who with some reps at times (like over Belinelli), has the tools on both ends to produce more naturally and in diferent than areas. He also has NBA-level confidence. Play him!

Pop is playing too many undersized wings in the rotation, and not nearly enough wings with decent or better size, who are available and are not bad players or have the tools to produce in other areas given the time. That's not going to hold up well over the long-term. That lack of size will be exploited on both ends when the reliance on them in being part of the rotation every game -- rather than just spurts or less regular-rotation minutes.

Two or all of Mills, Belinelli, Forbes have their shot off and their all in the rotation? Thats three players who don't bring much else to the game, while they aren't being complimented at the same time.


Lonnie ended up playing 16 minutes (last four in the 3rd Q, and all of the fourth Q) and was impactful. Can / should those minutes be spread out throughout the whole game? Yes. DeMarre I'll address below.

I think we all agree that of the three, Beli is the most one-dimensional, though his off-ball movement does keep defenses moving and creates more space for others. Still, if he keeps missing like he has been, his minutes should be the first cut.

Patty is having the most efficient season of his career, and his drives, passes, 3s, knowledge of the system, and overall energy is exactly what we need.

Bryn, I think, is the next guy who needs a minutes reduction / cap. Last season with Bryn filling in as emergency PG, it was DeMar who handled and distributed the ball a lot for us at the 2. This season with Bryn firmly at the 2 spot, he is scoring more per game but at lower efficiency, and getting exploited on D. At 6'2", mismatches hurt us. Because he is a floor spacer, expanded his O game, and has earned Pop's trust, he is our starting 2 guard, but down the line there's is something to be said for putting him into a role better suited for him like we were able to with Patty this season and he is thriving.

Ideally I think Bryn is a bench energy, quick points guy and in order to limit the impact of his deficiencies, guys with a bigger overall toolkit, especially defensively, need to eat into some of his minutes, and eventually the starting position as well.

Once Dejounte's minutes restriction is lifted - we have ZERO back-to-backs in December - we can try the DJ / Derrick backcourt more.

Some combination of DJ/Lonnie (which we've seen on the bench unit), Patty/Lonnie (same) and Derrick/Lonnie will need to be given more time to gel. That's not to say that Bryn should be cut out, but a few minutes from Beli and Bryn gives Lonnie a consistent 10 minutes minimum per game. I don't think Lonnie is the saviour fans hype him up to be right now, but he does need room to grow, and has proven with his good play on both ends that he deserves a shot. People forget how hard other guys coming up had to work to get regular minutes, and so it is with Lonnie. Ten minutes minimum per game. We can and should find them for him.

The glut of guards ideally offsets somewhat our lighter bigs rotation, and gives other options should one guys not have it going. We have more options to explore with combinations that give us a better balance of D and O bite. Yes, Bryn spaces the floor with his 3s, but if they're not falling, we may want to explore more the less used options so far.

With Bryn and Beli on their final contract years and us moving more towards players with more versatile games (as we've tried to do in the off-season 3 and 4 positions), I expect that the December 15 date will have to explore some options that perhaps get packaged with DeMar. We've made something like eight trades in many years, but we also can't lose an asset for nothing if we're still far apart on re-signing DeMar.

Some things I've noticed: I can't for the life of me understand why it is taking DeMarre so long to learn our O system. Dante came in and was serviceable; Trey missed a month during the summer with an illness and was serviceable. And while DC has been good on D and we can play him in spots on that alone, he still at times has to be guided by the PGs about where to go to start the play. It's bizarre.

- Last season around this time, Pop inserted Rudy as a starter and this helped turn our season around. Rudy has skills and can make an impact, but I do think he looks a step less bouncy, and as guys get older their consistency wanes a bit. I don't mind him starting (tonight he will likely have to), but he doesn't have as big a role as last season and the numbers show it: about three fewer minutes and two fewer points, going from third scorer to fifth so far this season, on worse efficiency, especially from the arc. It's small, but the extra juice can come from one of the younger guys, and so it'll likely have to come form the backcourt unless or until we can get more O from Jakob.

- Jakob is now our best defensive anchor, and Dejounte is right up there with him. Something to explore.

- White's numbers and efficiency, especially in 3s is up from 33.8% last season to 42.2% this season so far. He needs to shoot it more from the arc.

With more O-oriented guards getting their minutes adjusted especially if they're not making their shots, we have options to go the breadth/depth route with different back court combinations. Some more practice this month could prove fruitful to those explorations.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#15 » by UDRIH14 » Wed Dec 4, 2019 11:54 am

walker needs to be first of the bench or slotted into starting lineup

i wonder what the spurs could get if they dealt dd, lma, murray, mills, belli, forbes... these guys are deadweight empty stats...

im done with murray, he hasnt improve much, baskets is still attack teh rim, he needs to develop a jumpshot badly, too bad the spurs dont have a strong big who can set good high screens so he can roll to the basket like parker, other then that his a black hole on offense out there who cant stretch the floor, just like that other scrub DD whose afraid to shoot the 3...
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#16 » by Baphomet » Wed Dec 4, 2019 5:24 pm

UDRIH14 wrote:walker needs to be first of the bench or slotted into starting lineup

i wonder what the spurs could get if they dealt dd, lma, murray, mills, belli, forbes... these guys are deadweight empty stats...

im done with murray, he hasnt improve much, baskets is still attack teh rim, he needs to develop a jumpshot badly, too bad the spurs dont have a strong big who can set good high screens so he can roll to the basket like parker, other then that his a black hole on offense out there who cant stretch the floor, just like that other scrub DD whose afraid to shoot the 3...


It would be way too soon to give up on Murray. Expectations need to be tempered as he continues to get back into the swing of things after the torn ACL and being sidelined for a whole season. He's had a difficult run of games, sure, but he started the season off very well all things considered and deserves some time. For a team that has struggled all season long defensively, to trade an all-defensive caliber player would be foolish to say the least. We just extended his contract at good value, so, short of him recruiting Uncle Dennis as his agent, I don't think he's going anywhere.

I agree that PATFO need to look at some trade options, though. DeMar will almost certainly be on the block, but besides the Magic I'm not sure if there are any willing takers.
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Re: ROTATIONS IN THE 2019-2020 SEASON 

Post#17 » by Ballings7 » Thu Dec 5, 2019 12:10 am

Giving up Murray would be ridiculous and a shock... Murray's first real season was supposed to be last year after the year before where he was officially in the rotation (17-18), and that set him back a bit. All the work he did in 2018 summer, never got to be displayed or refined on.

Aside from that, Murray's defensive ability, rebounding, ability to get to the rim with flashes of a jumper + work committment, are valuable, and his personality/approach are by all indications really good.

Aside from that, team can't keep giving away / goin away from defenders and getting undersized wings who are offensively-biased. Team doesn't have enough size in general on the wing as it is.

Not gonna lie, Kyle Anderson or Danny Green (re-signing) would be nice on this team right now. Kyle at nearly 40 million isn't really that bad in comparison to a number of other contracts. I'm not getting into choosing him or the mone,y it didn't happen for whatever reason, but to continue -- Kyle isn't the ideal defensive forward, but he's versatile, smart, and has enough agility to defend the bigger SFs and quicker PFs, plus be a good guy in switching defense. I've moved on for awhile from them both, but, losing every single solid and versatile defensive wing in your rotation and not having too much to retain that, has been tough for this team and pretty exposing. Defense isn't all about individuals, but it certainly will help and is required a little bit at each position, to collectively have a paced and capable group defensively.

Losing them BOTH basically took out a lot of defensive clout and reliability the team had, heading into 18-19. Not including kawhi since that was its own situation.

Look at Toronto this year (no Kawhi), and last year. They are absolutely NOT the defensive teams they have been without the personnel they've gotten. Is everyone a good defender and unflawed? No, but there is one at least, capable defender at every position into the bench -- and then some. Very impressive and pretty awesome. Like, getting Rondae Hollis-Jefferson basically off the scrap heap when he got fazed out in Brooklyn. People say "he can't shoot", no, he actually CAN but isn't a sharpshooter and has his own solid downhill and post-game, too... aside from his defense and rebounding. He's a guy I wish was signed.

But, just some thoughts and reflection.. still, team has to get better and it really can be done from within as have seen a bit in the Clippers and Rockets wins. Murray is likely to be a big part of that over the next year and a half. Keldon should come up in a similar manner, he's not a scrub prosect and fell. Lonnie is already showing why he should of been in the rotation, and needs to stay in it to grow. Derrick is already established and will get better. Maybe Luka gets some time later on.. so, will be fun to see it all.
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