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This is an interesting conversation about Kawhi. Not very flattering on Kawhi's part. I just hope he starts playing again.

https://soundcloud.com/espn-san-antonio/the-hardline-2-28-18-dr-jason-garrett-from-airrosti-and-the-truth-about-kawhi

imagump1313 wrote:This is an interesting conversation about Kawhi. Not very flattering on Kawhi's part. I just hope he starts playing again.

https://soundcloud.com/espn-san-antonio/the-hardline-2-28-18-dr-jason-garrett-from-airrosti-and-the-truth-about-kawhi

Excellent find, imagump, thank you.

When I first heard that Kawhi had been medically cleared 'a while ago' it really hit a nerve. Since brevity is hard for me in the best of times, I took a couple of days to digest it, not be reactionary, and now we know that he had actually been medically cleared to play since before the pre-season! Un **** believable. AND he's had this injury since college. Un **** believable. Now, we could question the validity of Dr. Garrett, but he is giving specific info, he knows the Spurs staff, and he laid out the long-standing and established reputation that the Spurs franchise and medical staff have. If it's legitimate, it should stand up to scrutiny either way. It's well overdue that veiled insinuations about the Spurs staff are being called out.

It was indeed no coincidence that a day after Pop said he didn't expect Kawhi back that Jabari Young tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March. If Jabari knew, it stands to reason that Pop et al did, too, but after an entire season of this staring contest, the line was drawn, the staring contest done. And then Kawhi suddenly returned, something he could have done literally months ago, though kept prolonging (second opinion, then third in NYC, etc.). Jabari Young appears to be connected to the Kawhi camp. Earlier he had tweeted that Kawhi was very different from Timmy and Pop and Spurs would be wise not to expect that same beffie closeness and just let him be who he is (sort of had a bit of an 'or else...' feel to it), like the Spurs hadn't noticed. Two things: one, this is now the fifth person to speak for Kawhi - JY, Pop, R.C., Kawhi's sister, and his business manager uncle; two, this is not the only way that Kawhi and Timmy are different.

Kawhi may be quiet, but he's got a responsibility as a professional and a team member to do his part, both on the court, and in speaking up and clarifying. Timmy was introverted, too, but he was an incredible teammate, a great leader, a player who gave it his all; these are not what I associate with Kawhi, at least not leadership. Dr. Russell was unbelievably frank in saying that Kawhi's teammates are frustrated having to hold the fort when he could be helping, and in saying that he wouldn't pay any player $40+M/year that didn't give it his all - and other teams are keeping a close eye and asking similar questions. This is an amazing shot across the bow. Not that I think the doctor speaks for the Spurs, but I am curious about the timing, the source of the opinion, and about the assertion of leverage.

I'm glad that the previous narrative of oh Spurs have messed up Kawhi's rehab / he has a legitimate beef is being countered; it's a shame that it was floated to justify his frankly far too prolonged return timeline. The integrity of the Spurs, their medical staff, their track record with players' injuries, and Pop was openly called into question. Nobody in the media bothered to question whether any of it was on Kawhi. Makes you wonder where the original venticelli came from. Well we see who has been speaking for the Spurs, and what they have been and are saying (very finally).

I'm just so unimpressed, disappointed really, in his holding his teammates and the season hostage. Even if it's not done in malice, he's giving off a bit of a precious vibe, and this entire needlessly prolonged and slanted affair may just backfire on him. He is, of course, an incredible talent, and we do, of course, need him, but it's also about conduct off the court, how difficulties are handled and resolved, and Kawhi's got some work to do on and off the court. I do hope that he comes back, that he gels well with the rest of our players, that the air gets cleared, but I'm not holding my breath for the third time. You have to go by what a person does, not says, so when I see him out there giving his all is when it'll mean something. It makes me appreciate how everyone else has handled this whole situation all the more, and I can't help but want to cheer the Spurs who've been playing all the more.

tl;dr - how can a player just watch his team grind it out knowing that he can help, that he could have been helping basically all along? Like how do you look at yourself in the mirror and justify that? Some mending is needed, and Kawhi needs to step up. That, and no player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the team.

GREY 1769 wrote:

Spoiler:

When I first heard that Kawhi had been medically cleared 'a while ago' it really hit a nerve. Since brevity is hard for me in the best of times, I took a couple of days to digest it, not be reactionary, and now we know that he had actually been medically cleared to play since before the pre-season! Un **** believable. AND he's had this injury since college. Un **** believable. Now, we could question the validity of Dr. Garrett, but he is giving specific info, he knows the Spurs staff, and he laid out the long-standing and established reputation that the Spurs franchise and medical staff have. If it's legitimate, it should stand up to scrutiny either way. It's well overdue that veiled insinuations about the Spurs staff are being called out.

It was indeed no coincidence that a day after Pop said he didn't expect Kawhi back that Jabari Young tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March. If Jabari knew, it stands to reason that Pop et al did, too, but after an entire season of this staring contest, the line was drawn, the staring contest done. And then Kawhi suddenly returned, something he could have done literally months ago, though kept prolonging (second opinion, then third in NYC, etc.). Jabari Young appears to be connected to the Kawhi camp. Earlier he had tweeted that Kawhi was very different from Timmy and Pop and Spurs would be wise not to expect that same beffie closeness and just let him be who he is (sort of had a bit of an 'or else...' feel to it), like the Spurs hadn't noticed. Two things: one, this is now the fifth person to speak for Kawhi - JY, Pop, R.C., Kawhi's sister, and his business manager uncle; two, this is not the only way that Kawhi and Timmy are different.

Kawhi may be quiet, but he's got a responsibility as a professional and a team member to do his part, both on the court, and in speaking up and clarifying. Timmy was introverted, too, but he was an incredible teammate, a great leader, a player who gave it his all; these are not what I associate with Kawhi, at least not leadership. Dr. Russell was unbelievably frank in saying that Kawhi's teammates are frustrated having to hold the fort when he could be helping, and in saying that he wouldn't pay any player $40+M/year that didn't give it his all - and other teams are keeping a close eye and asking similar questions. This is an amazing shot across the bow. Not that I think the doctor speaks for the Spurs, but I am curious about the timing, the source of the opinion, and about the assertion of leverage.

I'm glad that the previous narrative of oh Spurs have messed up Kawhi's rehab / he has a legitimate beef is being countered; it's a shame that it was floated to justify his frankly far too prolonged return timeline. The integrity of the Spurs, their medical staff, their track record with players' injuries, and Pop was openly called into question. Nobody in the media bothered to question whether any of it was on Kawhi. Makes you wonder where the original venticelli came from. Well we see who has been speaking for the Spurs, and what they have been and are saying (very finally).

I'm just so unimpressed, disappointed really, in his holding his teammates and the season hostage. Even if it's not done in malice, he's giving off a bit of a precious vibe, and this entire needlessly prolonged and slanted affair may just backfire on him. He is, of course, an incredible talent, and we do, of course, need him, but it's also about conduct off the court, how difficulties are handled and resolved, and Kawhi's got some work to do on and off the court. I do hope that he comes back, that he gels well with the rest of our players, that the air gets cleared, but I'm not holding my breath for the third time. You have to go by what a person does, not says, so when I see him out there giving his all is when it'll mean something. It makes me appreciate how everyone else has handled this whole situation all the more, and I can't help but want to cheer the Spurs who've been playing all the more.

tl;dr - how can a player just watch his team grind it out knowing that he can help, that he could have been helping basically all along? Like how do you look at yourself in the mirror and justify that? Some mending is needed, and Kawhi needs to step up. That, and no player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the team.

This is a great and sobering take on the situation and it's a reminder that the truth is nearly always somewhere between what two sides claim and almost never what initial perceptions suggest.

We tend to dismiss a long and sustained track record of above-board conduct on the part of the FO because things aren't unfolding the way we'd like, but it's easy for our perspectives to be skewed by the fact that the players are the ones out in front, which means action from their side tends to be magnified.

This honestly puts all the pressure on him which I'm not sure how I feel about that.
He is in an almost no-win situation now.
If he comes back and plays well but we exit the playoffs early, people are going to ask why he skipped out on 90% of the season.
If he comes back and still doesn't feel right and is actually injured or suffers a different injury, everyone will assume he is faking.
If he doesn't come back at all people are going to question his heart and leadership.

The only chance this has of turning out well is if he comes back and we make a playoff run. Either beat one of Houston or Golden State or at least give them a hell of a series. Like Garrett says in the interview, I don't know if there is enough time for any of that to happen. For us to have any chance at all of even making the WCF, we would need Leonard playing like he did last year and a lot of luck.
There is basically no chance at all without Leonard playing MVP-type ball in the playoffs and even if he isn't hurt, I dont think he could be in good enough shape to do that this year, at this point.

We might have to wait until next year for all this to blow over but I have faith it will. We have just about run out of time this season though.
Remember, it was just 8-9 months ago most of us had given up on LMA and look at that situation now. I remember posting here that I would have taken a rack of deflated balls in exchange for Aldridge back in June or July. Hopefully this situation turns around that quickly.

BombsquadSammy wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Spoiler:

When I first heard that Kawhi had been medically cleared 'a while ago' it really hit a nerve. Since brevity is hard for me in the best of times, I took a couple of days to digest it, not be reactionary, and now we know that he had actually been medically cleared to play since before the pre-season! Un **** believable. AND he's had this injury since college. Un **** believable. Now, we could question the validity of Dr. Garrett, but he is giving specific info, he knows the Spurs staff, and he laid out the long-standing and established reputation that the Spurs franchise and medical staff have. If it's legitimate, it should stand up to scrutiny either way. It's well overdue that veiled insinuations about the Spurs staff are being called out.

It was indeed no coincidence that a day after Pop said he didn't expect Kawhi back that Jabari Young tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March. If Jabari knew, it stands to reason that Pop et al did, too, but after an entire season of this staring contest, the line was drawn, the staring contest done. And then Kawhi suddenly returned, something he could have done literally months ago, though kept prolonging (second opinion, then third in NYC, etc.). Jabari Young appears to be connected to the Kawhi camp. Earlier he had tweeted that Kawhi was very different from Timmy and Pop and Spurs would be wise not to expect that same beffie closeness and just let him be who he is (sort of had a bit of an 'or else...' feel to it), like the Spurs hadn't noticed. Two things: one, this is now the fifth person to speak for Kawhi - JY, Pop, R.C., Kawhi's sister, and his business manager uncle; two, this is not the only way that Kawhi and Timmy are different.

Kawhi may be quiet, but he's got a responsibility as a professional and a team member to do his part, both on the court, and in speaking up and clarifying. Timmy was introverted, too, but he was an incredible teammate, a great leader, a player who gave it his all; these are not what I associate with Kawhi, at least not leadership. Dr. Russell was unbelievably frank in saying that Kawhi's teammates are frustrated having to hold the fort when he could be helping, and in saying that he wouldn't pay any player $40+M/year that didn't give it his all - and other teams are keeping a close eye and asking similar questions. This is an amazing shot across the bow. Not that I think the doctor speaks for the Spurs, but I am curious about the timing, the source of the opinion, and about the assertion of leverage.

I'm glad that the previous narrative of oh Spurs have messed up Kawhi's rehab / he has a legitimate beef is being countered; it's a shame that it was floated to justify his frankly far too prolonged return timeline. The integrity of the Spurs, their medical staff, their track record with players' injuries, and Pop was openly called into question. Nobody in the media bothered to question whether any of it was on Kawhi. Makes you wonder where the original venticelli came from. Well we see who has been speaking for the Spurs, and what they have been and are saying (very finally).

I'm just so unimpressed, disappointed really, in his holding his teammates and the season hostage. Even if it's not done in malice, he's giving off a bit of a precious vibe, and this entire needlessly prolonged and slanted affair may just backfire on him. He is, of course, an incredible talent, and we do, of course, need him, but it's also about conduct off the court, how difficulties are handled and resolved, and Kawhi's got some work to do on and off the court. I do hope that he comes back, that he gels well with the rest of our players, that the air gets cleared, but I'm not holding my breath for the third time. You have to go by what a person does, not says, so when I see him out there giving his all is when it'll mean something. It makes me appreciate how everyone else has handled this whole situation all the more, and I can't help but want to cheer the Spurs who've been playing all the more.

tl;dr - how can a player just watch his team grind it out knowing that he can help, that he could have been helping basically all along? Like how do you look at yourself in the mirror and justify that? Some mending is needed, and Kawhi needs to step up. That, and no player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the team.

This is a great and sobering take on the situation and it's a reminder that the truth is nearly always somewhere between what two sides claim and almost never what initial perceptions suggest.

We tend to dismiss a long and sustained track record of above-board conduct on the part of the FO because things aren't unfolding the way we'd like, but it's easy for our perspectives to be skewed by the fact that the players are the ones out in front, which means action from their side tends to be magnified.

It goes without saying that I'm not without bias here; I'm team Pop and Spurs. The thing is, I feel so conflicted because I really like Kawhi, and so these developments are disappointing to see. You are right that we do not, of course, know all the details, and the truth is the third pillar between both sides, even if perceptions cause people to solidify their positions without having more info.

It is fascinating, though, to look at the timing of info being disseminated. All was silent, people just accepted Kawhi's injury was taking a bit longer, then the silence grew to anticipation, then discomfort when Kawhi was shelved indefinitely. Then Woj's article brought out the opinions, mostly negative towards the team. Let's keep in mind that the Spurs brass knew all along that Kawhi had been medically cleared since before the pre-season and not a word was leaked. Instead, the Spurs medical staff and FO got called into question about how it was supposedly mishandling Kawhi's injury and their relationship was subsequently frayed.

Pop in a rather tense pre-game presser in mid-January said the relationship is as it always has been. The team encourages players to get second opinions, they do it all the time.

Shortly thereafter, Kawhi's uncle also made a public statement about how there is no issue between Kawhi and the Spurs. Still the rumours of Kawhi being unhappy and there being little trust somehow persisted because of unnamed sources.

The Spurs medical staff got thrown under the bus, despite damage control of no strain in their relationship. Spurs didn't engage in the drama of retaliation, despite knowing what they did.

Kawhi proceeded to get a second second opinion just before and leading up to the end of the AS break in New Jersey.

Around the AS break, R.C. was interviewed and said Rudy would come back when he was medically cleared and Kawhi when he was ready. Seemed like a harmless description, but it turns out it was an important distinction. Rudy returned as projected post-AS break, thanked the Spurs medical staff for the work they did with him to help him get back. For reasons I stated earlier, it was not unreasonable a timeline to expect Kawhi to return as well.

Instead, in another pre-game presser just post-AS, Pop dropped the heavy but clearly intentional newsflash that he'd be surprised if Kawhi returned this year. You could literally feel the impact of his statement, even if he said it in such a matter of fact way; reporters stood in silence for a couple seconds. If the Spurs got yet another delay of return, they were no longer just going to sit back and take the heat for it.

Jabari Young soon tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March, followed by an ESPN report about 'late March' being a target, and Kawhi was back in SA. Not implying causality there, maybe Kawhi's visit to New Jersey was going to last three weeks anyway, but the release of info stating that Kawhi was telling teammates he was intending to play this year was quick. Along with this, the little tidbit about Kawhi having been cleared to play a while ago and it being his choice as to when he'd return also made its way to public ears, expanding on R.C.'s earlier comments. This wasn't refuted.

Finally, Dr. Garrett, who put his name on record (unlike the 'sources' in the ESPN articles that took shots at Spurs brass) by giving an audio interview most recently on ESPN-SA, provided more specific details that not only were known by the Spurs all along, but like Pop earlier with his post-AS presser, balanced the scales by asserting the Spurs' position. Pop did it with saying it would be a hard decision how late you could try to bring somebody along, and the doctor with really surprising info about the impact of players who don't give it their all on the team and on the player's reputation (already taking a bit of a hit on social media after the Spurs initially got it), about the recovery timeline, about how Kawhi could literally play any time, about the frustration of other players. No refutation of any of this either. Just an amazing, at the very least, redressing of balance here.

Maybe the clearing of air and mending is well in progress. But to get to that point, some public revelations and declarations needed to be aired. It's unfortunate that it reached the point that the Spurs felt it necessary to defend their staff and position, but ironically it was Woj's first ESPN story that created an opening for the Spurs to respond. Had Woj's story not been published, the Spurs would not have revealed anything (since they hadn't before the story was released).

At some point earlier after Woj's article told of Spurs concerns about Kawhi's camp influencing him away from SA, Jabari Young tweeted shortly thereafter that though Kawhi's uncle is his business manager and he takes input from his family, it is Kawhi himself who makes the final decision. Well, whether it is by influence of others of by Kawhi's choice, it seems they have overextended. We'll see the effects of Kawhi leveraging his talent to such an extent, and the Spurs putting out a reminder of what they have to leverage. It would have been great had it not come to this, and hopefully they are on their way and will work it out (seems to be in the best interest of both), but until Kawhi returns or not, and until a contract is presented or not and signed or not, we have the ongoing consequences of a shift in approach by the player and his camp to managing pain, player, and team boundaries, and the team's response so far. Better in the long run that the Spurs see who they're dealing with anyway. If what we know is the tip of the iceberg, what we don't will show in how they work through things.

GREY 1769 wrote:

BombsquadSammy wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Spoiler:

When I first heard that Kawhi had been medically cleared 'a while ago' it really hit a nerve. Since brevity is hard for me in the best of times, I took a couple of days to digest it, not be reactionary, and now we know that he had actually been medically cleared to play since before the pre-season! Un **** believable. AND he's had this injury since college. Un **** believable. Now, we could question the validity of Dr. Garrett, but he is giving specific info, he knows the Spurs staff, and he laid out the long-standing and established reputation that the Spurs franchise and medical staff have. If it's legitimate, it should stand up to scrutiny either way. It's well overdue that veiled insinuations about the Spurs staff are being called out.

It was indeed no coincidence that a day after Pop said he didn't expect Kawhi back that Jabari Young tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March. If Jabari knew, it stands to reason that Pop et al did, too, but after an entire season of this staring contest, the line was drawn, the staring contest done. And then Kawhi suddenly returned, something he could have done literally months ago, though kept prolonging (second opinion, then third in NYC, etc.). Jabari Young appears to be connected to the Kawhi camp. Earlier he had tweeted that Kawhi was very different from Timmy and Pop and Spurs would be wise not to expect that same beffie closeness and just let him be who he is (sort of had a bit of an 'or else...' feel to it), like the Spurs hadn't noticed. Two things: one, this is now the fifth person to speak for Kawhi - JY, Pop, R.C., Kawhi's sister, and his business manager uncle; two, this is not the only way that Kawhi and Timmy are different.

Kawhi may be quiet, but he's got a responsibility as a professional and a team member to do his part, both on the court, and in speaking up and clarifying. Timmy was introverted, too, but he was an incredible teammate, a great leader, a player who gave it his all; these are not what I associate with Kawhi, at least not leadership. Dr. Russell was unbelievably frank in saying that Kawhi's teammates are frustrated having to hold the fort when he could be helping, and in saying that he wouldn't pay any player $40+M/year that didn't give it his all - and other teams are keeping a close eye and asking similar questions. This is an amazing shot across the bow. Not that I think the doctor speaks for the Spurs, but I am curious about the timing, the source of the opinion, and about the assertion of leverage.

I'm glad that the previous narrative of oh Spurs have messed up Kawhi's rehab / he has a legitimate beef is being countered; it's a shame that it was floated to justify his frankly far too prolonged return timeline. The integrity of the Spurs, their medical staff, their track record with players' injuries, and Pop was openly called into question. Nobody in the media bothered to question whether any of it was on Kawhi. Makes you wonder where the original venticelli came from. Well we see who has been speaking for the Spurs, and what they have been and are saying (very finally).

I'm just so unimpressed, disappointed really, in his holding his teammates and the season hostage. Even if it's not done in malice, he's giving off a bit of a precious vibe, and this entire needlessly prolonged and slanted affair may just backfire on him. He is, of course, an incredible talent, and we do, of course, need him, but it's also about conduct off the court, how difficulties are handled and resolved, and Kawhi's got some work to do on and off the court. I do hope that he comes back, that he gels well with the rest of our players, that the air gets cleared, but I'm not holding my breath for the third time. You have to go by what a person does, not says, so when I see him out there giving his all is when it'll mean something. It makes me appreciate how everyone else has handled this whole situation all the more, and I can't help but want to cheer the Spurs who've been playing all the more.

tl;dr - how can a player just watch his team grind it out knowing that he can help, that he could have been helping basically all along? Like how do you look at yourself in the mirror and justify that? Some mending is needed, and Kawhi needs to step up. That, and no player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the team.

This is a great and sobering take on the situation and it's a reminder that the truth is nearly always somewhere between what two sides claim and almost never what initial perceptions suggest.

We tend to dismiss a long and sustained track record of above-board conduct on the part of the FO because things aren't unfolding the way we'd like, but it's easy for our perspectives to be skewed by the fact that the players are the ones out in front, which means action from their side tends to be magnified.

It goes without saying that I'm not without bias here; I'm team Pop and Spurs. The thing is, I feel so conflicted because I really like Kawhi, and so these developments are disappointing to see. You are right that we do not, of course, know all the details, and the truth is the third pillar between both sides, even if perceptions cause people to solidify their positions without having more info.

It is fascinating, though, to look at the timing of info being disseminated. All was silent, people just accepted Kawhi's injury was taking a bit longer, then the silence grew to anticipation, then discomfort when Kawhi was shelved indefinitely. Then Woj's article brought out the opinions, mostly negative towards the team. Let's keep in mind that the Spurs brass knew all along that Kawhi had been medically cleared since before the pre-season and not a word was leaked. Instead, the Spurs medical staff and FO got called into question about how it was supposedly mishandling Kawhi's injury and their relationship was subsequently frayed.

Pop in a rather tense pre-game presser in mid-January said the relationship is as it always has been. The team encourages players to get second opinions, they do it all the time.

Shortly thereafter, Kawhi's uncle also made a public statement about how there is no issue between Kawhi and the Spurs. Still the rumours of Kawhi being unhappy and there being little trust somehow persisted because of unnamed sources.

The Spurs medical staff got thrown under the bus, despite damage control of no strain in their relationship. Spurs didn't engage in the drama of retaliation, despite knowing what they did.

Kawhi proceeded to get a second second opinion just before and leading up to the end of the AS break in New Jersey.

Around the AS break, R.C. was interviewed and said Rudy would come back when he was medically cleared and Kawhi when he was ready. Seemed like a harmless description, but it turns out it was an important distinction. Rudy returned as projected post-AS break, thanked the Spurs medical staff for the work they did with him to help him get back. For reasons I stated earlier, it was not unreasonable a timeline to expect Kawhi to return as well.

Instead, in another pre-game presser just post-AS, Pop dropped the heavy but clearly intentional newsflash that he'd be surprised if Kawhi returned this year. You could literally feel the impact of his statement, even if he said it in such a matter of fact way; reporters stood in silence for a couple seconds. If the Spurs got yet another delay of return, they were no longer just going to sit back and take the heat for it.

Jabari Young soon tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March, followed by an ESPN report about 'late March' being a target, and Kawhi was back in SA. Not implying causality there, maybe Kawhi's visit to New Jersey was going to last three weeks anyway, but the release of info stating that Kawhi was telling teammates he was intending to play this year was quick. Along with this, the little tidbit about Kawhi having been cleared to play a while ago and it being his choice as to when he'd return also made its way to public ears, expanding on R.C.'s earlier comments. This wasn't refuted.

Finally, Dr. Garrett, who put his name on record (unlike the 'sources' in the ESPN articles that took shots at Spurs brass) by giving an audio interview most recently on ESPN-SA, provided more specific details that not only were known by the Spurs all along, but like Pop earlier with his post-AS presser, balanced the scales by asserting the Spurs' position. Pop did it with saying it would be a hard decision how late you could try to bring somebody along, and the doctor with really surprising info about the impact of players who don't give it their all on the team and on the player's reputation (already taking a bit of a hit on social media after the Spurs initially got it), about the recovery timeline, about how Kawhi could literally play any time, about the frustration of other players. No refutation of any of this either. Just an amazing, at the very least, redressing of balance here.

Maybe the clearing of air and mending is well in progress. But to get to that point, some public revelations and declarations needed to be aired. It's unfortunate that it reached the point that the Spurs felt it necessary to defend their staff and position, but ironically it was Woj's first ESPN story that created an opening for the Spurs to respond. Had Woj's story not been published, the Spurs would not have revealed anything (since they hadn't before the story was released).

At some point earlier after Woj's article told of Spurs concerns about Kawhi's camp influencing him away from SA, Jabari Young tweeted shortly thereafter that though Kawhi's uncle is his business manager and he takes input from his family, it is Kawhi himself who makes the final decision. Well, whether it is by influence of others of by Kawhi's choice, it seems they have overextended. We'll see the effects of Kawhi leveraging his talent to such an extent, and the Spurs putting out a reminder of what they have to leverage. It would have been great had it not come to this, and hopefully they are on their way and will work it out (seems to be in the best interest of both), but until Kawhi returns or not, and until a contract is presented or not and signed or not, we have the ongoing consequences of a shift in approach by the player and his camp to managing pain, player, and team boundaries, and the team's response so far. Better in the long run that the Spurs see who they're dealing with anyway. If what we know is the tip of the iceberg, what we don't will show in how they work through things.

Wonderful ruminations, and I concur. We've known who Pop and RC are for a decade + now; it's Kawhi's turn to show us who he is.

BombsquadSammy wrote:Wonderful ruminations, and I concur. We've known who Pop and RC are for a decade + now; it's Kawhi's turn to show us who he is.

I'm like McGee about jet packs. At least I spared you the PowerPoint presentation

Star forward Kawhi Leonard said Wednesday there is no friction between him and the Spurs regarding his treatment for the quadriceps ailment that has limited him to just nine games this season.

"Everything was done as a group," Leonard said of him seeking second opinions. "I don't feel like nothing was friction. I talk to Pop (Spurs coach Gregg Popovich) every day. He knows what the progression were. He knew what I was doing the whole entire time, as well as the front office. We made a group decision, so it was me just going out and saying, 'I am going to go out and do this thing.' "

True but the delay in return has been a source of frustration. Pop and R.C. don't make random media comments that haven't been thought out.

Asked if he would like to finish his career as a Spur, Leonard said. "Yeah. For sure."

Encouraging, but actions speak volumes, as they have up to this point with everything, so we'll see.

Leonard said he is not planning to make the Spurs' three-game road trip that begins on Thursday night against the Warriors.

There was a 'soft' return date of March 8. Now that's even been pushed back to... whenever. Pop's message of it being hard to bring a guy back really late in the season still stands until further notice.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Leonard-denies-reports-of-friction-between-him-12735337.php

It's great that Kawhi finally spoke for himself, but we just need him back on the court ASAP or sooner.

Yes! Kawhi finally speaks. Here is the interview of what Grey talked about.

GREY 1769 wrote:

BombsquadSammy wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Spoiler:

When I first heard that Kawhi had been medically cleared 'a while ago' it really hit a nerve. Since brevity is hard for me in the best of times, I took a couple of days to digest it, not be reactionary, and now we know that he had actually been medically cleared to play since before the pre-season! Un **** believable. AND he's had this injury since college. Un **** believable. Now, we could question the validity of Dr. Garrett, but he is giving specific info, he knows the Spurs staff, and he laid out the long-standing and established reputation that the Spurs franchise and medical staff have. If it's legitimate, it should stand up to scrutiny either way. It's well overdue that veiled insinuations about the Spurs staff are being called out.

It was indeed no coincidence that a day after Pop said he didn't expect Kawhi back that Jabari Young tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March. If Jabari knew, it stands to reason that Pop et al did, too, but after an entire season of this staring contest, the line was drawn, the staring contest done. And then Kawhi suddenly returned, something he could have done literally months ago, though kept prolonging (second opinion, then third in NYC, etc.). Jabari Young appears to be connected to the Kawhi camp. Earlier he had tweeted that Kawhi was very different from Timmy and Pop and Spurs would be wise not to expect that same beffie closeness and just let him be who he is (sort of had a bit of an 'or else...' feel to it), like the Spurs hadn't noticed. Two things: one, this is now the fifth person to speak for Kawhi - JY, Pop, R.C., Kawhi's sister, and his business manager uncle; two, this is not the only way that Kawhi and Timmy are different.

Kawhi may be quiet, but he's got a responsibility as a professional and a team member to do his part, both on the court, and in speaking up and clarifying. Timmy was introverted, too, but he was an incredible teammate, a great leader, a player who gave it his all; these are not what I associate with Kawhi, at least not leadership. Dr. Russell was unbelievably frank in saying that Kawhi's teammates are frustrated having to hold the fort when he could be helping, and in saying that he wouldn't pay any player $40+M/year that didn't give it his all - and other teams are keeping a close eye and asking similar questions. This is an amazing shot across the bow. Not that I think the doctor speaks for the Spurs, but I am curious about the timing, the source of the opinion, and about the assertion of leverage.

I'm glad that the previous narrative of oh Spurs have messed up Kawhi's rehab / he has a legitimate beef is being countered; it's a shame that it was floated to justify his frankly far too prolonged return timeline. The integrity of the Spurs, their medical staff, their track record with players' injuries, and Pop was openly called into question. Nobody in the media bothered to question whether any of it was on Kawhi. Makes you wonder where the original venticelli came from. Well we see who has been speaking for the Spurs, and what they have been and are saying (very finally).

I'm just so unimpressed, disappointed really, in his holding his teammates and the season hostage. Even if it's not done in malice, he's giving off a bit of a precious vibe, and this entire needlessly prolonged and slanted affair may just backfire on him. He is, of course, an incredible talent, and we do, of course, need him, but it's also about conduct off the court, how difficulties are handled and resolved, and Kawhi's got some work to do on and off the court. I do hope that he comes back, that he gels well with the rest of our players, that the air gets cleared, but I'm not holding my breath for the third time. You have to go by what a person does, not says, so when I see him out there giving his all is when it'll mean something. It makes me appreciate how everyone else has handled this whole situation all the more, and I can't help but want to cheer the Spurs who've been playing all the more.

tl;dr - how can a player just watch his team grind it out knowing that he can help, that he could have been helping basically all along? Like how do you look at yourself in the mirror and justify that? Some mending is needed, and Kawhi needs to step up. That, and no player, no matter how talented, is bigger than the team.

This is a great and sobering take on the situation and it's a reminder that the truth is nearly always somewhere between what two sides claim and almost never what initial perceptions suggest.

We tend to dismiss a long and sustained track record of above-board conduct on the part of the FO because things aren't unfolding the way we'd like, but it's easy for our perspectives to be skewed by the fact that the players are the ones out in front, which means action from their side tends to be magnified.

It goes without saying that I'm not without bias here; I'm team Pop and Spurs. The thing is, I feel so conflicted because I really like Kawhi, and so these developments are disappointing to see. You are right that we do not, of course, know all the details, and the truth is the third pillar between both sides, even if perceptions cause people to solidify their positions without having more info.

It is fascinating, though, to look at the timing of info being disseminated. All was silent, people just accepted Kawhi's injury was taking a bit longer, then the silence grew to anticipation, then discomfort when Kawhi was shelved indefinitely. Then Woj's article brought out the opinions, mostly negative towards the team. Let's keep in mind that the Spurs brass knew all along that Kawhi had been medically cleared since before the pre-season and not a word was leaked. Instead, the Spurs medical staff and FO got called into question about how it was supposedly mishandling Kawhi's injury and their relationship was subsequently frayed.

Pop in a rather tense pre-game presser in mid-January said the relationship is as it always has been. The team encourages players to get second opinions, they do it all the time.

Shortly thereafter, Kawhi's uncle also made a public statement about how there is no issue between Kawhi and the Spurs. Still the rumours of Kawhi being unhappy and there being little trust somehow persisted because of unnamed sources.

The Spurs medical staff got thrown under the bus, despite damage control of no strain in their relationship. Spurs didn't engage in the drama of retaliation, despite knowing what they did.

Kawhi proceeded to get a second second opinion just before and leading up to the end of the AS break in New Jersey.

Around the AS break, R.C. was interviewed and said Rudy would come back when he was medically cleared and Kawhi when he was ready. Seemed like a harmless description, but it turns out it was an important distinction. Rudy returned as projected post-AS break, thanked the Spurs medical staff for the work they did with him to help him get back. For reasons I stated earlier, it was not unreasonable a timeline to expect Kawhi to return as well.

Instead, in another pre-game presser just post-AS, Pop dropped the heavy but clearly intentional newsflash that he'd be surprised if Kawhi returned this year. You could literally feel the impact of his statement, even if he said it in such a matter of fact way; reporters stood in silence for a couple seconds. If the Spurs got yet another delay of return, they were no longer just going to sit back and take the heat for it.

Jabari Young soon tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March, followed by an ESPN report about 'late March' being a target, and Kawhi was back in SA. Not implying causality there, maybe Kawhi's visit to New Jersey was going to last three weeks anyway, but the release of info stating that Kawhi was telling teammates he was intending to play this year was quick. Along with this, the little tidbit about Kawhi having been cleared to play a while ago and it being his choice as to when he'd return also made its way to public ears, expanding on R.C.'s earlier comments. This wasn't refuted.

Finally, Dr. Garrett, who put his name on record (unlike the 'sources' in the ESPN articles that took shots at Spurs brass) by giving an audio interview most recently on ESPN-SA, provided more specific details that not only were known by the Spurs all along, but like Pop earlier with his post-AS presser, balanced the scales by asserting the Spurs' position. Pop did it with saying it would be a hard decision how late you could try to bring somebody along, and the doctor with really surprising info about the impact of players who don't give it their all on the team and on the player's reputation (already taking a bit of a hit on social media after the Spurs initially got it), about the recovery timeline, about how Kawhi could literally play any time, about the frustration of other players. No refutation of any of this either. Just an amazing, at the very least, redressing of balance here.

Maybe the clearing of air and mending is well in progress. But to get to that point, some public revelations and declarations needed to be aired. It's unfortunate that it reached the point that the Spurs felt it necessary to defend their staff and position, but ironically it was Woj's first ESPN story that created an opening for the Spurs to respond. Had Woj's story not been published, the Spurs would not have revealed anything (since they hadn't before the story was released).

At some point earlier after Woj's article told of Spurs concerns about Kawhi's camp influencing him away from SA, Jabari Young tweeted shortly thereafter that though Kawhi's uncle is his business manager and he takes input from his family, it is Kawhi himself who makes the final decision. Well, whether it is by influence of others of by Kawhi's choice, it seems they have overextended. We'll see the effects of Kawhi leveraging his talent to such an extent, and the Spurs putting out a reminder of what they have to leverage. It would have been great had it not come to this, and hopefully they are on their way and will work it out (seems to be in the best interest of both), but until Kawhi returns or not, and until a contract is presented or not and signed or not, we have the ongoing consequences of a shift in approach by the player and his camp to managing pain, player, and team boundaries, and the team's response so far. Better in the long run that the Spurs see who they're dealing with anyway. If what we know is the tip of the iceberg, what we don't will show in how they work through things.

I think this is all fair, but I think your admitted bias isn't allowing you to analyze PATFO's reactions fairly. I think the truth is that Pop knew this team wasn't good at the beginning of the season. We beat up on an easy schedule, and looked pretty as the 3rd seed, but the signs were there that this team wasn't good without Kawhi, and the last 1/3 of our schedule loomed on everyone's mind. So PATFO was/is rightfully worried about the image of Spur's culture/excellence. Kawhi is the reason this team won 67 and then 61 games the last two years, not the "Spurs Machine", without him, we're a fringe, 45 win, playoff contender, and this extended injury exposes that.

Thanks, imagump, for the video!

inDe_eD wrote:

Spoiler:

GREY 1769 wrote:

BombsquadSammy wrote:
This is a great and sobering take on the situation and it's a reminder that the truth is nearly always somewhere between what two sides claim and almost never what initial perceptions suggest.

We tend to dismiss a long and sustained track record of above-board conduct on the part of the FO because things aren't unfolding the way we'd like, but it's easy for our perspectives to be skewed by the fact that the players are the ones out in front, which means action from their side tends to be magnified.

It goes without saying that I'm not without bias here; I'm team Pop and Spurs. The thing is, I feel so conflicted because I really like Kawhi, and so these developments are disappointing to see. You are right that we do not, of course, know all the details, and the truth is the third pillar between both sides, even if perceptions cause people to solidify their positions without having more info.

It is fascinating, though, to look at the timing of info being disseminated. All was silent, people just accepted Kawhi's injury was taking a bit longer, then the silence grew to anticipation, then discomfort when Kawhi was shelved indefinitely. Then Woj's article brought out the opinions, mostly negative towards the team. Let's keep in mind that the Spurs brass knew all along that Kawhi had been medically cleared since before the pre-season and not a word was leaked. Instead, the Spurs medical staff and FO got called into question about how it was supposedly mishandling Kawhi's injury and their relationship was subsequently frayed.

Pop in a rather tense pre-game presser in mid-January said the relationship is as it always has been. The team encourages players to get second opinions, they do it all the time.

Shortly thereafter, Kawhi's uncle also made a public statement about how there is no issue between Kawhi and the Spurs. Still the rumours of Kawhi being unhappy and there being little trust somehow persisted because of unnamed sources.

The Spurs medical staff got thrown under the bus, despite damage control of no strain in their relationship. Spurs didn't engage in the drama of retaliation, despite knowing what they did.

Kawhi proceeded to get a second second opinion just before and leading up to the end of the AS break in New Jersey.

Around the AS break, R.C. was interviewed and said Rudy would come back when he was medically cleared and Kawhi when he was ready. Seemed like a harmless description, but it turns out it was an important distinction. Rudy returned as projected post-AS break, thanked the Spurs medical staff for the work they did with him to help him get back. For reasons I stated earlier, it was not unreasonable a timeline to expect Kawhi to return as well.

Instead, in another pre-game presser just post-AS, Pop dropped the heavy but clearly intentional newsflash that he'd be surprised if Kawhi returned this year. You could literally feel the impact of his statement, even if he said it in such a matter of fact way; reporters stood in silence for a couple seconds. If the Spurs got yet another delay of return, they were no longer just going to sit back and take the heat for it.

Jabari Young soon tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March, followed by an ESPN report about 'late March' being a target, and Kawhi was back in SA. Not implying causality there, maybe Kawhi's visit to New Jersey was going to last three weeks anyway, but the release of info stating that Kawhi was telling teammates he was intending to play this year was quick. Along with this, the little tidbit about Kawhi having been cleared to play a while ago and it being his choice as to when he'd return also made its way to public ears, expanding on R.C.'s earlier comments. This wasn't refuted.

Finally, Dr. Garrett, who put his name on record (unlike the 'sources' in the ESPN articles that took shots at Spurs brass) by giving an audio interview most recently on ESPN-SA, provided more specific details that not only were known by the Spurs all along, but like Pop earlier with his post-AS presser, balanced the scales by asserting the Spurs' position. Pop did it with saying it would be a hard decision how late you could try to bring somebody along, and the doctor with really surprising info about the impact of players who don't give it their all on the team and on the player's reputation (already taking a bit of a hit on social media after the Spurs initially got it), about the recovery timeline, about how Kawhi could literally play any time, about the frustration of other players. No refutation of any of this either. Just an amazing, at the very least, redressing of balance here.

Maybe the clearing of air and mending is well in progress. But to get to that point, some public revelations and declarations needed to be aired. It's unfortunate that it reached the point that the Spurs felt it necessary to defend their staff and position, but ironically it was Woj's first ESPN story that created an opening for the Spurs to respond. Had Woj's story not been published, the Spurs would not have revealed anything (since they hadn't before the story was released).

At some point earlier after Woj's article told of Spurs concerns about Kawhi's camp influencing him away from SA, Jabari Young tweeted shortly thereafter that though Kawhi's uncle is his business manager and he takes input from his family, it is Kawhi himself who makes the final decision. Well, whether it is by influence of others of by Kawhi's choice, it seems they have overextended. We'll see the effects of Kawhi leveraging his talent to such an extent, and the Spurs putting out a reminder of what they have to leverage. It would have been great had it not come to this, and hopefully they are on their way and will work it out (seems to be in the best interest of both), but until Kawhi returns or not, and until a contract is presented or not and signed or not, we have the ongoing consequences of a shift in approach by the player and his camp to managing pain, player, and team boundaries, and the team's response so far. Better in the long run that the Spurs see who they're dealing with anyway. If what we know is the tip of the iceberg, what we don't will show in how they work through things.

I think this is all fair, but I think your admitted bias isn't allowing you to analyze PATFO's reactions fairly. I think the truth is that Pop knew this team wasn't good at the beginning of the season. We beat up on an easy schedule, and looked pretty as the 3rd seed, but the signs were there that this team wasn't good without Kawhi, and the last 1/3 of our schedule loomed on everyone's mind. So PATFO was/is rightfully worried about the image of Spur's culture/excellence. Kawhi is the reason this team won 67 and then 61 games the last two years, not the "Spurs Machine", without him, we're a fringe, 45 win, playoff contender, and this extended injury exposes that.

Well the intention was about presenting what was put out in the media, by whom, and when, because the timing and messages were interesting and worthy of parsing through given that Pop and R.C. do not speak without premeditation. The slant of what I presented is mitigated to the extent I'm aware of it. I have no insider info, but if there's one coach and team that by the weight of a hard-earned reputation based on results is not concerned about image, it's Pop and the Spurs. I'm not sure how you can say what you think the truth of what Pop knew or didn't is. We were projected to be a powerhouse this season, deep at every position.

I disagree that the Spurs system has nothing to do with the team's success, that Kawhi is the sole reason for the team's success, or that the system is a failure because we are struggling - relative to previous years - this season. On the contrary, it's amazing we are where we are considering we have lost 175+ games to injury this season, considering we have had 22 different starting line-ups this season. And that's a tribute to the system we have had in place for years, well before Kawhi got here (since he was around 6 or so, actually), one amenable to playing style changes and to new players.

So while stars are the go-to clutch players that we do not have to rely on this year, consider the Cavs without LBJ, GSW without Durant/Curry, Houston without Harden/Paul for most of the season, then take starters out of the line-up on a rotating basis, then take out the key bench player for over two months, where do you honestly think they'd be?

Of course Kawhi makes us a contender, but where we are given all we've been through exposes just how central the Spurs system is to still being in the playoff run. That's not image; that's the substance of the Spurs.

GREY 1769 wrote:

Star forward Kawhi Leonard said Wednesday there is no friction between him and the Spurs regarding his treatment for the quadriceps ailment that has limited him to just nine games this season.

"Everything was done as a group," Leonard said of him seeking second opinions. "I don't feel like nothing was friction. I talk to Pop (Spurs coach Gregg Popovich) every day. He knows what the progression were. He knew what I was doing the whole entire time, as well as the front office. We made a group decision, so it was me just going out and saying, 'I am going to go out and do this thing.' "

True but the delay in return has been a source of frustration. Pop and R.C. don't make random media comments that haven't been thought out.

Asked if he would like to finish his career as a Spur, Leonard said. "Yeah. For sure."

Encouraging, but actions speak volumes, as they have up to this point with everything, so we'll see.

Leonard said he is not planning to make the Spurs' three-game road trip that begins on Thursday night against the Warriors.

There was a 'soft' return date of March 8. Now that's even been pushed back to... whenever. Pop's message of it being hard to bring a guy back really late in the season still stands until further notice.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Leonard-denies-reports-of-friction-between-him-12735337.php

It's great that Kawhi finally spoke for himself, but we just need him back on the court ASAP or sooner.

We need him back when he's ready to be back. Rushing him back is just foolish.

Nolan wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Star forward Kawhi Leonard said Wednesday there is no friction between him and the Spurs regarding his treatment for the quadriceps ailment that has limited him to just nine games this season.

"Everything was done as a group," Leonard said of him seeking second opinions. "I don't feel like nothing was friction. I talk to Pop (Spurs coach Gregg Popovich) every day. He knows what the progression were. He knew what I was doing the whole entire time, as well as the front office. We made a group decision, so it was me just going out and saying, 'I am going to go out and do this thing.' "

True but the delay in return has been a source of frustration. Pop and R.C. don't make random media comments that haven't been thought out.

Asked if he would like to finish his career as a Spur, Leonard said. "Yeah. For sure."

Encouraging, but actions speak volumes, as they have up to this point with everything, so we'll see.

Leonard said he is not planning to make the Spurs' three-game road trip that begins on Thursday night against the Warriors.

There was a 'soft' return date of March 8. Now that's even been pushed back to... whenever. Pop's message of it being hard to bring a guy back really late in the season still stands until further notice.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Leonard-denies-reports-of-friction-between-him-12735337.php

It's great that Kawhi finally spoke for himself, but we just need him back on the court ASAP or sooner.

We need him back when he's ready to be back. Rushing him back is just foolish.

It's not about rushing; this is as not rushed as it gets. I just wish he could feel confident enough in his readiness to be out there already.

GREY 1769 wrote:

Nolan wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:True but the delay in return has been a source of frustration. Pop and R.C. don't make random media comments that haven't been thought out.


Encouraging, but actions speak volumes, as they have up to this point with everything, so we'll see.


There was a 'soft' return date of March 8. Now that's even been pushed back to... whenever. Pop's message of it being hard to bring a guy back really late in the season still stands until further notice.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Leonard-denies-reports-of-friction-between-him-12735337.php

It's great that Kawhi finally spoke for himself, but we just need him back on the court ASAP or sooner.

We need him back when he's ready to be back. Rushing him back is just foolish.

It's not about rushing; this is as not rushed as it gets. I just wish he could feel confident enough in his readiness to be out there already.

And I'm sure he feels the same way. We can't take this out on Kawhi, not fair to him and we have no clue what he's going through.

Nolan wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Nolan wrote:
We need him back when he's ready to be back. Rushing him back is just foolish.

It's not about rushing; this is as not rushed as it gets. I just wish he could feel confident enough in his readiness to be out there already.

And I'm sure he feels the same way. We can't take this out on Kawhi, not fair to him and we have no clue what he's going through.

Kawhi was taking hits on social media, however fair or not. But even the FO, which likely has some clue what he's going through, was taking him to account of late, so it's not a matter of taking anything out on Kawhi (unless you meant me, but were too polite to say. It's ok, I can face it even if I stand by my position, admittedly heated though it has been) about their finding a balance between his self-interests and that of the team.

GREY 1769 wrote:Thanks, imagump, for the video!

inDe_eD wrote:

Spoiler:

GREY 1769 wrote:It goes without saying that I'm not without bias here; I'm team Pop and Spurs. The thing is, I feel so conflicted because I really like Kawhi, and so these developments are disappointing to see. You are right that we do not, of course, know all the details, and the truth is the third pillar between both sides, even if perceptions cause people to solidify their positions without having more info.

It is fascinating, though, to look at the timing of info being disseminated. All was silent, people just accepted Kawhi's injury was taking a bit longer, then the silence grew to anticipation, then discomfort when Kawhi was shelved indefinitely. Then Woj's article brought out the opinions, mostly negative towards the team. Let's keep in mind that the Spurs brass knew all along that Kawhi had been medically cleared since before the pre-season and not a word was leaked. Instead, the Spurs medical staff and FO got called into question about how it was supposedly mishandling Kawhi's injury and their relationship was subsequently frayed.

Pop in a rather tense pre-game presser in mid-January said the relationship is as it always has been. The team encourages players to get second opinions, they do it all the time.

Shortly thereafter, Kawhi's uncle also made a public statement about how there is no issue between Kawhi and the Spurs. Still the rumours of Kawhi being unhappy and there being little trust somehow persisted because of unnamed sources.

The Spurs medical staff got thrown under the bus, despite damage control of no strain in their relationship. Spurs didn't engage in the drama of retaliation, despite knowing what they did.

Kawhi proceeded to get a second second opinion just before and leading up to the end of the AS break in New Jersey.

Around the AS break, R.C. was interviewed and said Rudy would come back when he was medically cleared and Kawhi when he was ready. Seemed like a harmless description, but it turns out it was an important distinction. Rudy returned as projected post-AS break, thanked the Spurs medical staff for the work they did with him to help him get back. For reasons I stated earlier, it was not unreasonable a timeline to expect Kawhi to return as well.

Instead, in another pre-game presser just post-AS, Pop dropped the heavy but clearly intentional newsflash that he'd be surprised if Kawhi returned this year. You could literally feel the impact of his statement, even if he said it in such a matter of fact way; reporters stood in silence for a couple seconds. If the Spurs got yet another delay of return, they were no longer just going to sit back and take the heat for it.

Jabari Young soon tweeted that Kawhi intended to return in March, followed by an ESPN report about 'late March' being a target, and Kawhi was back in SA. Not implying causality there, maybe Kawhi's visit to New Jersey was going to last three weeks anyway, but the release of info stating that Kawhi was telling teammates he was intending to play this year was quick. Along with this, the little tidbit about Kawhi having been cleared to play a while ago and it being his choice as to when he'd return also made its way to public ears, expanding on R.C.'s earlier comments. This wasn't refuted.

Finally, Dr. Garrett, who put his name on record (unlike the 'sources' in the ESPN articles that took shots at Spurs brass) by giving an audio interview most recently on ESPN-SA, provided more specific details that not only were known by the Spurs all along, but like Pop earlier with his post-AS presser, balanced the scales by asserting the Spurs' position. Pop did it with saying it would be a hard decision how late you could try to bring somebody along, and the doctor with really surprising info about the impact of players who don't give it their all on the team and on the player's reputation (already taking a bit of a hit on social media after the Spurs initially got it), about the recovery timeline, about how Kawhi could literally play any time, about the frustration of other players. No refutation of any of this either. Just an amazing, at the very least, redressing of balance here.

Maybe the clearing of air and mending is well in progress. But to get to that point, some public revelations and declarations needed to be aired. It's unfortunate that it reached the point that the Spurs felt it necessary to defend their staff and position, but ironically it was Woj's first ESPN story that created an opening for the Spurs to respond. Had Woj's story not been published, the Spurs would not have revealed anything (since they hadn't before the story was released).

At some point earlier after Woj's article told of Spurs concerns about Kawhi's camp influencing him away from SA, Jabari Young tweeted shortly thereafter that though Kawhi's uncle is his business manager and he takes input from his family, it is Kawhi himself who makes the final decision. Well, whether it is by influence of others of by Kawhi's choice, it seems they have overextended. We'll see the effects of Kawhi leveraging his talent to such an extent, and the Spurs putting out a reminder of what they have to leverage. It would have been great had it not come to this, and hopefully they are on their way and will work it out (seems to be in the best interest of both), but until Kawhi returns or not, and until a contract is presented or not and signed or not, we have the ongoing consequences of a shift in approach by the player and his camp to managing pain, player, and team boundaries, and the team's response so far. Better in the long run that the Spurs see who they're dealing with anyway. If what we know is the tip of the iceberg, what we don't will show in how they work through things.

I think this is all fair, but I think your admitted bias isn't allowing you to analyze PATFO's reactions fairly. I think the truth is that Pop knew this team wasn't good at the beginning of the season. We beat up on an easy schedule, and looked pretty as the 3rd seed, but the signs were there that this team wasn't good without Kawhi, and the last 1/3 of our schedule loomed on everyone's mind. So PATFO was/is rightfully worried about the image of Spur's culture/excellence. Kawhi is the reason this team won 67 and then 61 games the last two years, not the "Spurs Machine", without him, we're a fringe, 45 win, playoff contender, and this extended injury exposes that.

Well the intention was about presenting what was put out in the media, by whom, and when, because the timing and messages were interesting and worthy of parsing through given that Pop and R.C. do not speak without premeditation. The slant of what I presented is mitigated to the extent I'm aware of it. I have no insider info, but if there's one coach and team that by the weight of a hard-earned reputation based on results is not concerned about image, it's Pop and the Spurs. I'm not sure how you can say what you think the truth of what Pop knew or didn't is. We were projected to be a powerhouse this season, deep at every position.

I disagree that the Spurs system has nothing to do with the team's success, that Kawhi is the sole reason for the team's success, or that the system is a failure because we are struggling - relative to previous years - this season. On the contrary, it's amazing we are where we are considering we have lost 175+ games to injury this season, considering we have had 22 different starting line-ups this season. And that's a tribute to the system we have had in place for years, well before Kawhi got here (since he was around 6 or so, actually), one amenable to playing style changes and to new players.

So while stars are the go-to clutch players that we do not have to rely on this year, consider the Cavs without LBJ, GSW without Durant/Curry, Houston without Harden/Paul for most of the season, then take starters out of the line-up on a rotating basis, then take out the key bench player for over two months, where do you honestly think they'd be?

Of course Kawhi makes us a contender, but where we are given all we've been through exposes just how central the Spurs system is to still being in the playoff run. That's not image; that's the substance of the Spurs.

I appreciate you being so articulate, it’s a breath of fresh air from the general board. That being said, I still disagree. I’d be willing to side with you about Pop and RC not being concerned about image if they hadn’t said anything, but the fact is, they didn’t stay tight-lipped on this, and instead spoke multiple times about how weird this injury was, and that Kawhi was responding slowly, and whatever else I’m forgetting. This is a front office that has never felt the need to explain themselves to anybody, and yet they did here, why? Is it because Kawhi’s a prima donna? Is it because they suddenly feel the need to air out dirty laundry? I can’t think of a reason for doing this that doesn’t involve protecting the Spurs brand. Speaking about Kawhi doesn’t improve team morale, or help with winning games, this was clearly an image thing. By the way, we were actually projected to win 6 fewer games than we did last year, and that was with the assumption of a healthy Kawhi.

I guess we’re talking about team success in different terms. If you want to say that having a winning record is successful, in a league were 8/30 teams are intentionally losing, then cool, I guess we’ve had a successful season. Success to me, is actually contending. Without Kawhi, we’re on pace to drop from a 7.13 SRS last year to a 2.4 SRS this year, an SRS mark that would be the worst in the last 20 years, when we tanked for Duncan in 97’. The dropoff hasn’t just been bad, it’s been colossal. In fact, it proves that Kawhi is one of, if not the most impactful ceiling raisers in the game. If we had gotten to see it, I think we could have had healthy Kawhi, but the same number of lost games to injuries (distributed to other key players), the same number of different lineups, and the same sucky schedule, and we’d be fighting for the 1st and 2nd seeds. My point is, it’s not that we’ve had a bad year, it’s that we’ve been without Kawhi.

GREY 1769 wrote:

Nolan wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:It's not about rushing; this is as not rushed as it gets. I just wish he could feel confident enough in his readiness to be out there already.

And I'm sure he feels the same way. We can't take this out on Kawhi, not fair to him and we have no clue what he's going through.

Kawhi was taking hits on social media, however fair or not. But even the FO, which likely has some clue what he's going through, was taking him to account of late, so it's not a matter of taking anything out on Kawhi (unless you meant me, but were too polite to say. It's ok, I can face it even if I stand by my position, admittedly heated though it has been) about their finding a balance between his self-interests and that of the team.

The thing that's so unreasonable about this entire Kawhi situation, and let me be clear that I'm not accusing you individually Grey, is that we have almost slave-level expectations of these guys, and the general fan response is always to identify with the team. Almost every fan will use terms like "My Spurs", "My team", and pronouns like "us", "we", "our", and then demand that a guy be loyal, or re-sign with us because we drafted him, or whatever else. It's really weird to me that the first instinct isn't to put ourselves in the guy's shoes. From everything I've read on Tendinopathy, it hurts like hell. You can be cleared for any physical activity, but that doesn't mean that it won't be painful. If I'm Kawhi and everyone on the Spurs is telling me it's fine, it's just going to hurt for a while, my eyebrows shoot up and off my head. No doubt Kawhi knows what happened to Isaiah Thomas last year (played through injury). Where was the loyalty there? Because IT cannibalized himself for his team (losing his sister and his tooth, and then experiencing serious hip pain), he lost out on probably $100-$150 million dollars. Any one criticizing Kawhi for being as careful as possible about this lacks empathy imo. 99.99999% of the population in his situation, would do the same thing.

inDe_eD wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:

Nolan wrote:
And I'm sure he feels the same way. We can't take this out on Kawhi, not fair to him and we have no clue what he's going through.

Kawhi was taking hits on social media, however fair or not. But even the FO, which likely has some clue what he's going through, was taking him to account of late, so it's not a matter of taking anything out on Kawhi (unless you meant me, but were too polite to say. It's ok, I can face it even if I stand by my position, admittedly heated though it has been) about their finding a balance between his self-interests and that of the team.

The thing that's so unreasonable about this entire Kawhi situation, and let me be clear that I'm not accusing you individually Grey, is that we have almost slave-level expectations of these guys, and the general fan response is always to identify with the team. Almost every fan will use terms like "My Spurs", "My team", and pronouns like "us", "we", "our", and then demand that a guy be loyal, or re-sign with us because we drafted him, or whatever else. It's really weird to me that the first instinct isn't to put ourselves in the guy's shoes. From everything I've read on Tendinopathy, it hurts like hell. You can be cleared for any physical activity, but that doesn't mean that it won't be painful. If I'm Kawhi and everyone on the Spurs is telling me it's fine, it's just going to hurt for a while, my eyebrows shoot up and off my head. No doubt Kawhi knows what happened to Isaiah Thomas last year (played through injury). Where was the loyalty there? Because IT cannibalized himself for his team (losing his sister and his tooth, and then experiencing serious hip pain), he lost out on probably $100-$150 million dollars. Any one criticizing Kawhi for being as careful as possible about this lacks empathy imo. 99.99999% of the population in his situation, would do the same thing.

Preaching to the choir my man!!!