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In our final home game before Christmas, we look to continue our good momentum tonight. To do so, we have to start strong, stay resilient and poised, and play our team-oriented system on both ends for the entire duration. Consistency, competitiveness, and cohesion are central to protecting our court. Let's get after it!

WHERE: AT&T Center, San Antonio, TX

WHEN: Saturday, December 21, 2019, 7:30pm (CT)



MERRY SPURSMAS AND GO SPURS GO!!!

p.s. A hunch, but I think it would benefit us to start LMA and Jakob in our front court tonight.

Sweet Fiesta Spurs colours!

We have to make sure we protect our paint with more ferocity. I like our movement and shot creation, just need more 3s. Also, ball protection is key for us - lots of bunny misses and missed passes that we need to clean up.

Love how Jakob is growing on the defensive end. Once we get him incorporating some more moves into his offensive repertoire, watch out. Love watching him develop:

Trey and Bryn once again providing almost nothing on O combining for 0-4 (Bryn has 2FTs); Rudy is sick so he gets a pass on only one shot (hit a 3); Jakob has 4 blocks but 0 shot attempts on some butterfingers plays and losing the ball; Derrick needs to shoot more. Overcoming missed chances puts more pressure on those guys who are hitting their shots

When we score 61 points at the half, we should expect to be leading or close to it. Can't have so many points in the paint - P&R coverage - and points in transition against - running back on D is not an option or you sit.

Trey is not a strong inside presence, more of a finesse one and we need a more physical presence inside at the 4. Rudy sometimes got caught too far under the basket. LMA and Jakob have done well to contest.

I hope that Mezie, DeMarre, and Lonnie get second half minutes.

We need to make sure as well that we get the D rebounds to limit second chances and drive more at them. Play with intensity and flow.

Spurs twitter is mighty reactionary after every game, but better to step of the ledge and get some perspective - we won the 4th Q. Just kidding. But there's a tendency to act as if the sky is falling when we play poorly, and it's not balanced with credit for good play in wins. Either way, how we get there is instructive.

Well a post-game interview with Pop pretty much laid it out - too many points in the paint and points from our turnovers allowed. Yep, 74-40 in the former, and 36 off the latter. That's 110 points. This when we shot 51.2FG%. Our 18 turnovers and giving up 11 steals, along with being outrebounded 43-36 (including 13-4 on O rebounds) meant we gave them multiple chances to score while giving up chances to score. They ended up 17 more shots, 99-82 and hit them on better percentages.

DeMar, LMA, and DJ were really good in their minutes - engaged, making a concerted effort to keep driving, hitting their Js, facilitating, getting rebounds. Assertive and good balance between getting their own and looking to involve others. DJ hit 2-3 from 3, more than anyone else in the starting unit, both a positive sign and an omen.

But it does hurt us that Bryn isn't hitting his shots, and neither is Trey; they combined for 1-7 tonight. I get that Bryn's in there for spacing, but it only helps when the 3s are falling and 0-6 from them isn't going to cut it. Their 19 and 14 minutes respectively accounts for their lack of performance on O and D as four bench players played more than Bryn and six bench players played more than Trey. Bryn got switched on their drives, and as the second shortest Spur and not a good defender, neither helped; Trey played small and tentative - just not nearly physical enough for a big presence down low. On O I would say overall same thing - he has shown flashes of assertive play on putbacks and cuts for dunks, but on the whole he is more of a finesse player, and we need someone who is more willing or able to do the dirty work.

I'm not convinced that either of them believe they should be starters. They're not playing up to the roles and you get the sense that perhaps the breadth of these roles are becoming a bit daunting. I do wonder to what extent it's a matter of playing through a lull in play, like in Beli's case, or if it's showcasing them (plus Beli) for potential trades. If this is not the case, then perhaps bench roles from which they can springboard is better at this point. If Derrick went back to the bench after starting last season, no reason Bryn couldn't do so either. If either 3 or D are the issues, then Patty of Derrick could fill the role. Just thinking out loud.

So at times we settled into one and done shots too early in the shot clock, but it was also a function of not enough guys making their shots, so those who did had more pressure to score all the more.

Jakob was 3-4, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists, but what these stats don't show are missed chances from bobbled balls and turnovers, something he needs to work on. Jakob had solid defensive presence with his blocks, but at other times he was a bit tentative and not contesting hard. His blocks are from reacting to reading the developing plays, but on a night when we had trouble with P&R defense, we'd get two guards on their ball handler and the big would be too far under the basket to close the gap on the the C who received the pass and drove hard. We did not have nearly hard enough contests in our key. It's one thing to get blocks, these are great, but when opponents get into our key, they should feel pain for doing so. Not dirty, but hard to make them think twice. More grit to go along with the finesse. This wasn't just on Jakob or Trey - neither Rudy nor LMA were the hard nosed defenders down low, though Jakob and LMA defended well outside of the physicality aspect.

But Jakob's bad tendencies were indicative of what we need to improve team-wide. He had too many turnovers from not holding on to the ball strongly enough, and this was an offshoot of passes that were a bit behind him or too low. So while our ball protection needs work, so too does good passing. Far too many were too easily picked off or stolen and they resulted in dunk after dunk. The other side of this is fo course we allowed ourselves to get beaten down the court in transition D after we kept giving the ball up.

Beli was in late in the game so his stats are a bit skewed, nevertheless, he led the bench in scoring from connecting on efficient 4-6 (4-5 from 3). He did exactly what he was out there to do. Those who bemoaned his minutes just as he came in as the first sub in for DeMar should also give credit after he played his minutes and filled his role. His defense is what it is, no argument, but his minutes were what they were because he contributed in ways he's out there for.

Rudy, battling illness, was ironically more efficient than in previous games, 3-4 for 6 points, 1-1 from 3, 5 boards, 1 assist, 1 block. Derrick at 5-9 for 10 points, 3 rebounds and 5 assists was a solid complement to DJ (who is much better as a starter in his second go around) though the 3s need to be there more consistently. Solid defense and balance of driving, shooting Js, and involving others. Patty had an off night, but contributed nonetheless (3-7 for 9 points, 2 for team-high 6 attempts from 3) though it's unfair to compare it to the previous game's heroics.

Much is made when Lonnie isn't playing, but frankly he didn't have a good enough defensive showing. He had a bad turnover for which Pop yanked him to have a talk, and then put him back in. This is a critical and surely overlooked sequence of events in the shadow of the result, but it's a teaching moment, one that instills the necessity of playing the right way, one that instills to Lonnie that no matter the score and pull of maybe putting him in to 'play through mistakes' in the hopes of lightning striking again. Playing through mistakes is one thing, learning from them by getting a talking to about them is another. Fact is, Lonnie was out of position on some drives and got beaten, turned it over (team-high 3 in 17 minutes), and when driving, finished with flair rather than fundamentals which resulted in misses. Sometimes he gets caught up in the showing of his athleticism, but pretty drives that miss don't help the team. Much to the consternation of many fans, he HAS to show improvement in the areas coaches need him to to earn more minutes. It shapes a player when he internalizes the connection between minutes and competitive fundamentals.

We had DJ, Lonnie, Beli, Metu, and DeMarre finish the game, and at it looked like a line-up that didn't play together often. Still, there were some turnover issues from errant unfocused passes, and it looked as if at least some of them were more looking to get theirs rather than focusing on running the system. Metu had a nice left baseline drive and dunk, but was 1-5 in missing everything else farther out; DeMarre did well to get fouled but was 1-4FTs.

We stayed with them well in the 1st Q, but the damage had been done in the middle two. Though we won the final Q, it still had the mistakes that created our problems to begin with. The accumulation of these - bad passes, poor ball protection, weak P&R defense, rebounding - put us on our heels and we played like it. Some of these are flat out effort plays, like running back on D after broken plays, and others like ball protection and rebounding require a mindset of holding onto the ball and being aware of who to block out at any given time or hustle after the loose ball.

Responding with more physicality and a higher compete level takes a mindset that we need to keep reinforcing and internalizing. On to the next one with more assertive and focused play.

A lot of good points in your recap.

The fact is the whole team is badly constructed. Nothing fits.

And that's not necessarily anyone's fault, we got what we got and certain guys haven't filled their roles.

Aldridge is a terrible rebounder for his size and role. He gets lazy and too often into bad position to box out. He has given up so many offensive rebounds this season.

He doesn't have any help though. Jakob isn't really a starter with his lack of offense and Lyles isn't a starter on any team in the league. Certainly not at centre or power forward.

Derozan clearly had lots of offensive skill and a knack for finding certain ways to score but for him to be effective we pretty much need the four other guys on the perimeter and we don't have enough good shooters for that nor do I think Pop or the rest of the team want to keep watching his iso ball.

I have to question if this game was just a way to showcase DD and get his trade value worth something. The guys around him looked uninterested to be honest.

If Pop was serious about keeping this team intact and getting the best from them, surely common sense says you run Derozan/Aldridge pick and rolls over and over. You either feed a great mid/long range shooter or you give a great one on one scorer a chance to get to his spots.

But no, we keep passing the ball around to guys with absolutely no intention to put up a shot.

I get the yanking of Lonnie. But he is making that mistakes because he is scared to be called out of hogging the ball. There's quite a few times in recent games where he has a shot from a decent drive and passes it away because 'its the Spurs way' and he is the young kid still earning his stripes. The 'let him play' comments likely wouldn't come if we were contending but when we are lottery bound, there's no excuse.

And I said it on the general board and will say it again, if you can get some good value for DD and Murray or DD and White you pull the trigger. You can't play them together because neither can space the floor and White struggles to find his own shot.

Murray tonight put a lot of pressure on his teammates because his defenders backed way, way off. He obviously isn't going to become a great shooter overnight but he needs to at least keep the D honest. Otherwise his speed on the drive is pointless as we saw tonight where he got almost nothing.

Forbes is like Mills and every other great shooting guard who lacks height ... They struggle against tall defenders. Again, it's just the way of the league.

A Derozan or Aldridge trade might be enough to get an established player and squeeze into the playoffs but that isn't worth it.

Move DD now (as Chauncy Billups said during the broadcast) because he'll be gone otherwise.

Aldridge is no longer an All-star and maybe do the right thing by him and send him back home to retire in Portland with his buddy Lillard. Bazemore will do, one year left and we get 20 mill to play with.

Derozan is a must. Even for a pick or two and/or a young player. I'd take that rumoured Aaron Gordon trade.

Time to stop delaying the inevitable.

Phreak50 is right on point.

This team blows.

Even though poorly constructed, this team could be decent with the talent it has but no one seems to care or want to change anything.

The coaching staff has turned into pumpkins overnight. We used to make players better with a system, we used to demand at least some type of defensive effort. Pop used to tear into the soul of players when they weren't doing things they were supposed to including the greats. How many times did we see him rip into Duncan, Parker, Ginoibili...etc.? Now we have guys who couldn't hold their jockstraps screwing up and being lazy every 2 minutes of playing time and no one says a thing to them. The only player Pop seems to even try to coach is Lonnie Walker. He looks afraid to say anything to DeRozan or Aldridge because he doesn't want to hurt their feelings but they are the ones who need a giant kick in the ass the most. I keep hoping its because one or both are about to be traded because it makes no sense at all to not hold them accountable if you think you are going to win with this team.

Our future isn't really all sparkles and rainbows like most seem to think.
Murray is overrated to be honest. If we are relying on him to carry this franchise in the future we are in big trouble. He is a role player at best.
Walker is even more overrated than Murray if thats possible. Wow! He can jump really high. That doesn't make him a good basketball player and his so-called basketball IQ is low. They are low first round picks and are what they are.

Forbes is what he is. I've been watching him plenty in college and now here. He will have 1 great game and then disappear for the next 10. Thats just what he is.

Poeltl could work. But just like Mills, we rely on him doing too much because the people that should be carrying this team are not. He's a nice role player that can scrap, get rebounds and play a little defense.

White has regressed big time. IMO its because this team spends too much time catering to Murray. The way White played last lear he deserved minutes and to be a starter. We handed Murray the job that he didnt earn and wasnt ready for this year and I think White took a big confidence hit because of that. Now he tries to do too much when he gets minutes instead of playing like he did last year. This team won't be successful with both White and Murray. One has to go or one has to accept a bench role and I think that should be Murray, but I doubt the Spurs want that because of him being picked and being labeled the franchise savior.

I dont want to hear about how we find gems late in the draft anymore. We got lucky with Leonard. Parker and Ginoibili were because we were the only NBA team invested in foreign players at the time. Now every team does it. Both of them would be top 10 picks if they were in the draft today just like Doncic.

I haven't even watched the last three games. For the first time in my life I am actually not watching games because of how frustrating and unlikable this team is. From the posts Ive seen I haven't missed anything though because it sounds like the same crap I was watching. Nothing is changing which is why its frustrating. I'm rooting for losses and trades at this point and I never thought I would ever say that about this team.

Phreak50 wrote:A lot of good points in your recap.

The fact is the whole team is badly constructed. Nothing fits.

And that's not necessarily anyone's fault, we got what we got and certain guys haven't filled their roles.

Aldridge is a terrible rebounder for his size and role. He gets lazy and too often into bad position to box out. He has given up so many offensive rebounds this season.

He doesn't have any help though. Jakob isn't really a starter with his lack of offense and Lyles isn't a starter on any team in the league. Certainly not at centre or power forward.

Derozan clearly had lots of offensive skill and a knack for finding certain ways to score but for him to be effective we pretty much need the four other guys on the perimeter and we don't have enough good shooters for that nor do I think Pop or the rest of the team want to keep watching his iso ball.

I have to question if this game was just a way to showcase DD and get his trade value worth something. The guys around him looked uninterested to be honest.

If Pop was serious about keeping this team intact and getting the best from them, surely common sense says you run Derozan/Aldridge pick and rolls over and over. You either feed a great mid/long range shooter or you give a great one on one scorer a chance to get to his spots.

But no, we keep passing the ball around to guys with absolutely no intention to put up a shot.

I get the yanking of Lonnie. But he is making that mistakes because he is scared to be called out of hogging the ball. There's quite a few times in recent games where he has a shot from a decent drive and passes it away because 'its the Spurs way' and he is the young kid still earning his stripes. The 'let him play' comments likely wouldn't come if we were contending but when we are lottery bound, there's no excuse.

And I said it on the general board and will say it again, if you can get some good value for DD and Murray or DD and White you pull the trigger. You can't play them together because neither can space the floor and White struggles to find his own shot.

Murray tonight put a lot of pressure on his teammates because his defenders backed way, way off. He obviously isn't going to become a great shooter overnight but he needs to at least keep the D honest. Otherwise his speed on the drive is pointless as we saw tonight where he got almost nothing.

Forbes is like Mills and every other great shooting guard who lacks height ... They struggle against tall defenders. Again, it's just the way of the league.

A Derozan or Aldridge trade might be enough to get an established player and squeeze into the playoffs but that isn't worth it.

Move DD now (as Chauncy Billups said during the broadcast) because he'll be gone otherwise.

Aldridge is no longer an All-star and maybe do the right thing by him and send him back home to retire in Portland with his buddy Lillard. Bazemore will do, one year left and we get 20 mill to play with.

Derozan is a must. Even for a pick or two and/or a young player. I'd take that rumoured Aaron Gordon trade.

Time to stop delaying the inevitable.

Solid post. The construction such as it is wasn't supposed to be this way, and Morris **** us over makes the point about solidifying grit in the front court with 3&D all the more glaring in a game like yesterday. But it's also largely more the same team as last season which worked better, so I think some internal changes are not working as well as we'd hoped. DD at the 3, for instance, means the ball is not in his hands as much to facilitate, DJ's learning to facilitate, Bryn still off ball but getting zeroed in on is possibly now too big a role for him. More on that in a bit.

DJ as starter is better in the second go around, and in his first full season as PG, there is a LOT to learn.

Agree about LMA, and I think Rudy is starting to fall into that cusp category of vets slightly on the decline, and consistency and bounce are usually the first to go. That said, we gave up a ton of rebounds team-wide, and that's also on positioning and boxing out and effort. Long shots, long rebounds, yet we look surprised as the ball sails over our heads at times. We for sure have to shore up our bigs situation, preferably with an athletic, hard-nosed type.

To that end, I 100% agree about moving DD at some point, but of course it's a two-way street of what teams are willing to give and when. I think he's a place holder, and you bring up a good point about how other guys are reacting to his holding the ball to probe and create. I've noticed it too, and I'm getting this vibe that they're not saying anything but biding their time. Look at how we flow when neither LMA nor DD are on the court. Sure there are mistakes, but there's an energy and synergy from freeing up all the starters rather than ensuring the main two get their pet shots in pet spots.

To gump's point about Pop not calling LMA and DD out, well DD sat the last four minutes or so of a recent game and was absolutely mopey about it. Rudy said DD was just disappointed and it's a sign of wanting to compete, ok whatever. But we HAVE changed how we use him: no more of the late-game ISOing probing and driving or kicking in the air at the last moment. We've moved towards DD as facilitator for others, something he's good at, and have had Rudy, Patty, Bryn, Beli take shots late in games instead. But it's a balance between ripping and instilling confidence when a team isn't doing well. There's SO much info out there about Pop's ability to connect with each individual player that I'm not at all concerned about not seeing him tear them a new one on the bench. Besides, if there are potential trades on the way or if we have to weather the storm, guys have to stay engaged.

I'd like to see more of DJ and Derrick together, which Pop said is coming and we'll see more of, and I think we're nowhere near where these two can or will be; Lonnie HAS to play the right way - that's not about making his game smaller, but about playing hard and with discipline every time he's out there. Last night he was bad on both ends, got a talk from Pop, and was kept out there to play through it. Both are good preparation for when we make more changes and they'll get more time on the court.

About potential trades: Bryn and Beli are on the final year of their contracts, so I DO think they're being showcased while we develop Lonnie. I wonder whether that weighs on Bryn. We have a lot of guards who are bigger and more two-way than he is, and he can't help but notice his role potentially being passed on to several other guys. I also think DD is being showcased, so now he's shown the 1,2,3 positions. LMA's contract is structured in such a way that $7M is guaranteed up until I think Jan. 15, and then his full contract for next season gets guaranteed after that. I wonder how that affects any potential deals.

But in the meantime we're struggling through a really tough schedule to start the season, a PG learning the ropes, and without a player who could have really fit well but **** us over and so we made a last ditch plug and have had to adjust to that as well.

I'm fine with developing Lonnie with a tight leash while we showcase guys to get the best possible deals. This is a team in transition, one on whom once again strange circumstances thwarted the intended roster and we've had to adjust and deal with it. What I'm glad isn't compromised is rushing development and not looking desperate in searching for answers by making huge line-up or minutes changes. Unless or until more changes are made, guys have to suck it up, be accountable, and step up.

GREY 1769 wrote:DJ's learning to facilitate, Bryn still off ball but getting zeroed in on is possibly now too big a role for him.
DJ as starter is better in the second go around, and in his first full season as PG, there is a LOT to learn.

Agreed on Forbes. I like him but the role is too much for him and his inconsistency destroys us.

Murray, I am starting to sour on. I don't think he has a problem learning to facilitate. He is just unable too because everyone just plays off him. On that note, how about an outside shot? For anyone that would listen, I've been harping for 3 years about how Ben Simmons never learned to shoot. The guy literally was in the Philly system for over a year rehabbing and not one person thought "Hey! Maybe we should work on an outside shot?" Its a crime.

Murray had an entire year of rehab also. According to his Instagram and reports with the team, the dude was in the gym every freaking day for a year. NOW everyone wants to say lets work on an outside shot? IMO its too f-ing late now! You had your chance and did nothing. Your shot has improved 0% over an entire year when you had all the time in the world to improve. This coaching staff is as much to blame for wasting an entire year than he is if he was around the facility that much.

I hate Joel Embid but you know what he did while rehabbing and not playing for almost 2 years? He worked on his shot and is an adequate outside shooter.

GREY 1769 wrote:I think Rudy is starting to fall into that cusp category of vets slightly on the decline, and consistency and bounce are usually the first to go.

As much as I love Gay you are right. Unless he has some injury he is hiding, he looks old and slow.

GREY 1769 wrote:To gump's point about Pop not calling LMA and DD out, well DD sat the last four minutes or so of a recent game and was absolutely mopey about it. Rudy said DD was just disappointed and it's a sign of wanting to compete, ok whatever.

I agree with the "whatever" part lol. I actually like DeRozan and Im pretty sure he wants to win. The thing is he has no idea how to win and this coaching staff seems to have no interest in teaching him. Either that, or they are afraid of upsetting him. Either way, its not working. He can get mopey all he wants. Maybe try not sucking and doing things to help the team win and you wont sit?

I've played with plenty of guys just like DeRozan. Really great players who just did not know how to win. They think its all about them, that the reason for losing was because they couldnt make their hero shot. They just cant comprehend times when you absolutely cannot turn the ball over or settle for a lame, weak shot when its time to win a game. Or when its time to defend, even when you arent the best at it. Thats what winners do and guys like DeRozan and Aldridge were never taught. Maybe the staff is trying to teach it and they aren't responding or dont want to. Either way like I said before, its too late now and time to move on.

GREY 1769 wrote: I'd like to see more of DJ and Derrick together, which Pop said is coming and we'll see more of

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this is a between the lines message that DeRozan will be traded because the 3 of them cannot be on the floor together. Especially Murray and DeRozan.

GREY 1769 wrote:About potential trades: Bryn and Beli are on the final year of their contracts, so I DO think they're being showcased while we develop Lonnie.

I'm cool with this but I really hope they arent doing the showcase thing' This isnt 2002. Everyone in the league already knows what Forbes and Belinelli are. We wouldn't be fooling anyone by playing them a little more. Both can really be useful in the right situation as role players.

imagump1313 wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:DJ's learning to facilitate, Bryn still off ball but getting zeroed in on is possibly now too big a role for him.
DJ as starter is better in the second go around, and in his first full season as PG, there is a LOT to learn.

Agreed on Forbes. I like him but the role is too much for him and his inconsistency destroys us.

Murray, I am starting to sour on. I don't think he has a problem learning to facilitate. He is just unable too because everyone just plays off him. On that note, how about an outside shot? For anyone that would listen, I've been harping for 3 years about how Ben Simmons never learned to shoot. The guy literally was in the Philly system for over a year rehabbing and not one person thought "Hey! Maybe we should work on an outside shot?" Its a crime.

Murray had an entire year of rehab also. According to his Instagram and reports with the team, the dude was in the gym every freaking day for a year. NOW everyone wants to say lets work on an outside shot? IMO its too f-ing late now! You had your chance and did nothing. Your shot has improved 0% over an entire year when you had all the time in the world to improve. This coaching staff is as much to blame for wasting an entire year than he is if he was around the facility that much.

I hate Joel Embid but you know what he did while rehabbing and not playing for almost 2 years? He worked on his shot and is an adequate outside shooter.

Hmm well apparently DJ had been working on his shot last season pre-injury and he and Derrick were two that the staff were most excited about having made the jump. From what I understand of the recovery process, much of it had to do with focusing on the actual leg, and it wasn't until what? August or something when he got full clearance, and started shooting when he was able before the full contact was allowed.

The minutes restriction has also been a factor, as has being in the starting unit, then with different players (trickier to adjust to for a guy learning the PG role, I think) then being quite inconsistent in that role was put in with the bench unit, and now back as a starter. That's a lot of changes.

His stats compared to last season are up across the board except for 3 shooting. Does the extra 1.5 minutes solely account for it? Maybe, but efficiency is better, too. Would it be cheating if I make a distinction between pre- and post-minutes restriction? Because in the latter, but for one game, he has been very good in shooting: 12.8 PPG on 55.3FG%, 29% from 3 (two games 0-0, two games 0-2, one game 1-2, last game 2-3), 87.5%FT; his strongest shooting Q for the season is the 4th at 53.4FG% and 40% from 3, encouraging. Also, his shot distribution is more varied - 15% of his shots are from the 3 so far this season as opposed to 5% last season.

In these last six games free of minutes restrictions, his shot chart shows a good balance of both layup makes, in key Js, out-of-key Js. If you mean the 3 shot, yes, that needs improving, though he is not afraid to shoot it, and has shown good percentages in clutch moments. I am confident he is trending the right way. Even if his numbers are not a huge jump, they are trending the right way across the board. So I'm confident he'll improve his shot over time.

GREY 1769 wrote:I think Rudy is starting to fall into that cusp category of vets slightly on the decline, and consistency and bounce are usually the first to go.

As much as I love Gay you are right. Unless he has some injury he is hiding, he looks old and slow.

He was fighting an illness since the Mexico City game for what it's worth, but yeah, he's serviceable but we can't rely on him as much as we have before.

GREY 1769 wrote:To gump's point about Pop not calling LMA and DD out, well DD sat the last four minutes or so of a recent game and was absolutely mopey about it. Rudy said DD was just disappointed and it's a sign of wanting to compete, ok whatever.

I agree with the "whatever" part lol. I actually like DeRozan and Im pretty sure he wants to win. The thing is he has no idea how to win and this coaching staff seems to have no interest in teaching him. Either that, or they are afraid of upsetting him. Either way, its not working. He can get mopey all he wants. Maybe try not sucking and doing things to help the team win and you wont sit?

I've played with plenty of guys just like DeRozan. Really great players who just did not know how to win. They think its all about them, that the reason for losing was because they couldnt make their hero shot. They just cant comprehend times when you absolutely cannot turn the ball over or settle for a lame, weak shot when its time to win a game. Or when its time to defend, even when you arent the best at it. Thats what winners do and guys like DeRozan and Aldridge were never taught. Maybe the staff is trying to teach it and they aren't responding or dont want to. Either way like I said before, its too late now and time to move on.

Amen about the italicized part. That bold part - truer words haven't been spoken, and agree for the most part about the rest except I think coaches instill our way (never heard him talking about D and its importance so much) but like an older rubber band, you can only stretch so far. DeMar suffers most from not having been developed properly and so his D deficiencies are on full display even as he has good moments. LMA and Rudy have improved their D, but all three would have been far better defenders had we had them from the beginning of their careers. DD is particularly set in his ways as he was not held accountable for that end of the game, same thing for the 3 shot. So much was given to him without his having earned it that it's now shocking to him to sit even as he hasn't always deserved end-of-game minutes.

The other part of the dynamic is that we have to make balance team needs with making sure DD's content enough to ride it out until whenever it is we make a deal. This holding pattern is not that constructive for the team long term, I think, as I get the sense that other players are picking up on the dynamic of here now, but until... when? and all its requirements. Doing right by the team and by the player sometimes has contradictory or at least not fully aligned interests.

I'd be really happy with a young big prospect, something that strengthens the 3,4 especially, maybe the 5, someone tenacious and athletic.

GREY 1769 wrote: I'd like to see more of DJ and Derrick together, which Pop said is coming and we'll see more of

I am keeping my fingers crossed that this is a between the lines message that DeRozan will be traded because the 3 of them cannot be on the floor together. Especially Murray and DeRozan.

Agree about these three sharing the floor not being our long-term direction. And connected to the above point about DD and development, he's the cautionary tale we have to avoid with Lonnie and make sure that when his time comes, he has fundamentals down on both ends. He's not there yet, and so DD has some solid skills as you've mentioned that fill a need for us, but our guys that we've had since the draft will also not be as deficient on one end. Some may counter with "Well what about Bryn?" - sure, but he's an undrafted SG we're relying on, too, until our young guys are better ready.

GREY 1769 wrote:About potential trades: Bryn and Beli are on the final year of their contracts, so I DO think they're being showcased while we develop Lonnie.

I'm cool with this but I really hope they arent doing the showcase thing' This isnt 2002. Everyone in the league already knows what Forbes and Belinelli are. We wouldn't be fooling anyone by playing them a little more. Both can really be useful in the right situation as role players.

Fair point. It's really just speculation on my part, and Jeff McDonald said as much about Beli. Ok. They are what they are, but at the same time, while the younger guys develop, these two also have to show they can get out of their respective ruts. Beli looks to be on the right side of doing so, Bryn - oof. Let's hope he gets through to the other side.

The roster is more imbalanced due to the off-season screw job - NBA really HAS to look into the moratorium and consequences for situations like ours - and we have a lot of decisions to make as far as some players who are place holders to be blunt about it, and so it's both a transitional time and a time when we're sort of waiting for the changes we know will at some point happen. We all thought there would be a more stable foundation coming into this year, so perhaps the way things have developed expedites what we were expecting, but yeah, there are changes coming, and I think that the deals we make keep solidifying the 3,4,5 positions with more athletic two-way players who fit around DJ, Derrick, Quinn, Lonnie, KJ, Luka, Jakob, Metu, Drew -- and Bala FIBA Patty! (Love him, had to have him in the group).

Games like this last one get people reacting far more because we look far worse, but we've also played far better in ohter games and trending better of late, so if we can stay the course, the changes will come at times when it's optimal for us to take best advantage of our assets and strengthen our roster with players that fit the direction we're continuing to progress towards.

Well put.

But we will have to agree to disagree on Murray.
They dude was in the gym all spring before last season was over and summer, Yes he had to physically rehab the injury but you dont need to be in a game to work on shooting. Its mechanics and repetition and form and practice. Per my example of Embid. He used his off time wisely and became a better player. Simmons did not. Murray did not.

Anyone that has coached basketball will tell you that you dont become a better shooter in games. Its what you do off the court that helps. A game is not teaching time, it is execution time.

I saw countless Instagrams of him playing, going one on one with Timmy even. He wasn't cleared for full contact until August yes, but he was playing long before that. There is zero improvement from his rookie year until now. There is no excuse for that if he is serious about becoming a great player.

Sure maybe he can try again this summer but he isnt going to get any better at it now. So another entire wasted year so for me I believe the entire Spurs organization is at fault for that. Not just Murray(unless the team wanted him to work on it and he didnt, none of us know that)

You could say the same about DeRozan. I saw countless videos of him over the summer driving past guys going to the basket. Choosing to not work on an outside shot. IMO, he doesn't care to change or get better. I agree he is older and maybe set in his ways, but his ways are loser ways and that only proves my point that we need to move on from him also.

imagump1313 wrote:Well put.

But we will have to agree to disagree on Murray.
They dude was in the gym all spring before last season was over and summer, Yes he had to physically rehab the injury but you dont need to be in a game to work on shooting. Its mechanics and repetition and form and practice. Per my example of Embid. He used his off time wisely and became a better player. Simmons did not. Murray did not.

Anyone that has coached basketball will tell you that you dont become a better shooter in games. Its what you do off the court that helps. A game is not teaching time, it is execution time.

I saw countless Instagrams of him playing, going one on one with Timmy even. He wasn't cleared for full contact until August yes, but he was playing long before that. There is zero improvement from his rookie year until now. There is no excuse for that if he is serious about becoming a great player.

Sure maybe he can try again this summer but he isnt going to get any better at it now. So another entire wasted year so for me I believe the entire Spurs organization is at fault for that. Not just Murray(unless the team wanted him to work on it and he didnt, none of us know that)

You could say the same about DeRozan. I saw countless videos of him over the summer driving past guys going to the basket. Choosing to not work on an outside shot. IMO, he doesn't care to change or get better. I agree he is older and maybe set in his ways, but his ways are loser ways and that only proves my point that we need to move on from him also.

Though Bryn has plateaued of late, this may be another Bryn-like type of debate. We see what we see on IG, but we don't know what we don't see on it. I'm surprised you think his shot hasn't improved as the stats show it has in pretty much all areas and more distances, but I guess not enough for it to make enough of a difference? I think the numbers show he's trending the right way - far better efficiency on all shots - though I admit the post-minutes restriction so far is a small sample size.

At this point, DJ has about 20% usage. I think once he settles into his position more and once we make roster changes (everyone in most games gets fewer shots than the main two right now), we'll see how he progresses. It's interesting we're looking at the same player and getting such different impressions. I guess it's a more younger generation thing, but I'm weary when guys post all these progress videos. To his credit, DJ has also shown a competitiveness and shooting to back it up (DD is a different animal entirely - he hasn't backed up the long shot in games ever, so his off-season and interview claims have no weight). We do disagree about him at the moment, but I have a lot of hope based on what I've seen. Time will tell.

GREY 1769 wrote:Though Bryn has plateaued of late, this may be another Bryn-like type of debate. We see what we see on IG, but we don't know what we don't see on it. I'm surprised you think his shot hasn't improved as the stats show it has in pretty much all areas and more distances, but I guess not enough for it to make enough of a difference? I think the numbers show he's trending the right way - far better efficiency on all shots - though I admit the post-minutes restriction so far is a small sample size.

At this point, DJ has about 20% usage. I think once he settles into his position more and once we make roster changes (everyone in most games gets fewer shots than the main two right now), we'll see how he progresses. It's interesting we're looking at the same player and getting such different impressions. I guess it's a more younger generation thing, but I'm weary when guys post all these progress videos. To his credit, DJ has also shown a competitiveness and shooting to back it up (DD is a different animal entirely - he hasn't backed up the long shot in games ever, so his off-season and interview claims have no weight). We do disagree about him at the moment, but I have a lot of hope based on what I've seen. Time will tell.

What I see are teams that barely pay attention to him unless he drives. Then more times than not, whoever is guarding him is more athletic than him and he either gets blocked, takes a bad shot or turns it over.
I don't expect him to shoot like a Curry but at least be some type of threat.
I really don't pay attention to stats because they can be skewed to fit a persons argument. I judge with my own eyes what I see. Call me an old man.

For years I thought Danny Green missed every three he took but it actually wasn't that bad.

imagump1313 wrote:

GREY 1769 wrote:Though Bryn has plateaued of late, this may be another Bryn-like type of debate. We see what we see on IG, but we don't know what we don't see on it. I'm surprised you think his shot hasn't improved as the stats show it has in pretty much all areas and more distances, but I guess not enough for it to make enough of a difference? I think the numbers show he's trending the right way - far better efficiency on all shots - though I admit the post-minutes restriction so far is a small sample size.

At this point, DJ has about 20% usage. I think once he settles into his position more and once we make roster changes (everyone in most games gets fewer shots than the main two right now), we'll see how he progresses. It's interesting we're looking at the same player and getting such different impressions. I guess it's a more younger generation thing, but I'm weary when guys post all these progress videos. To his credit, DJ has also shown a competitiveness and shooting to back it up (DD is a different animal entirely - he hasn't backed up the long shot in games ever, so his off-season and interview claims have no weight). We do disagree about him at the moment, but I have a lot of hope based on what I've seen. Time will tell.

What I see are teams that barely pay attention to him unless he drives. Then more times than not, whoever is guarding him is more athletic than him and he either gets blocked, takes a bad shot or turns it over.
I don't expect him to shoot like a Curry but at least be some type of threat.
I really don't pay attention to stats because they can be skewed to fit a persons argument. I judge with my own eyes what I see. Call me an old man.

For years I thought Danny Green missed every three he took but it actually wasn't that bad.

Ha! Call me an annoyingly hopeful lady, old man!

Bet you a pint DJ's shot improves first at least to the point that it keeps defenses honest and they have to guard it by the end of this season.

GREY 1769 wrote:Bet you a pint DJ's shot improves first at least to the point that it keeps defenses honest and they have to guard it by the end of this season.

Okay, I really hope he does improve but I doubt it will happen during the season.