GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT)

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GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#1 » by GREY 1769 » Sun Jan 3, 2021 11:07 am

Our final game of three here has one goal: protect home court. We're up against a conference rival that takes nine more threes per game than we do so making sure our D rotations and contesting are crisp is primary. They also have a dangerous inside presence so getting positional strength is key as well. Using our transition game and O versatility will go a long way in imposing our pace. Let's keep the momentum of our improved play going and reward our efforts with a much needed victory.

WHERE: AT&T Center, San Antonio, TX

WHEN: Sunday, January 3, 2021, 6pm (CT)

Earn The Stripes Mode: The fellowship of the court!

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GO SPURS GO!!!
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#2 » by ducler » Sun Jan 3, 2021 8:11 pm

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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#3 » by GREY 1769 » Sun Jan 3, 2021 10:20 pm

Of course:
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#4 » by GREY 1769 » Sun Jan 3, 2021 10:30 pm

Hopefully he heals fully. Weird incident. Hopefully he goes on the road trip. We're still waiting to be able to use our true bubble play starting line-up. Over to you, basketball gods!
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#5 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 12:09 am

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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#6 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 12:18 am

We're too slow to start.

Also, Jakob NEEDS to bloody well dunk.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#7 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 12:39 am

They are 6-11 from 3, 5-6 FTs in the 1st Q.

We are not using our transition game well enough, Rudy needs to take off the blinders and see teammates with arms up wide open in the corners. Two 6-point swings.

Push the ball, finish hard at the rim, get to the FT line.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#8 » by imagump1313 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 1:13 am

Once again Walker and Murray are awful.
OMG, Walker is soo bad defensively also. Just watching highlights of the first half. Almost every Jazz player walks right past him.

I'm glad Vassell is back playing tonight at least.

Poeltl is Poeltl. Even Sean Elliot is making fun of him not being aggressive.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#9 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 1:24 am

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We need to use our strengths of D to O transition - DD WALKS ball up the court time and again.

We need to use our strengths of ball movement and passing - 12 assists with Rudy's tunnel vision missing open teammates time and again, shooting only 2-7.

Increasing the 3 is a focus for us - only 3-10 from 3 ...

PUSH THE DAMN BALL, MOVE THE DAMN BALL, PROTECT THE ARC, PICK UP THE HUSTLE.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#10 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 1:28 am

**** DUNK THE **** BALL, JAKOB YOU GIANT OAF BUNNY. ****!!!
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#11 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 2:22 am

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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#12 » by imagump1313 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 2:23 am

Stayed until the end to watch the young guys.

Vassell needs to play more. Especially when Murray and Walker are doing next to nothing like usual. Vassell was like the 3rd, best player on this team in the preseason games. He was allowed to play loose and comfortable.
Then when the season started they just have him stand in the opposite corner of the ball offensively like he is our 5th option. He has to rush his shots if he is ever allowed to take one and seems to just be rushing everything because he only plays small stretches if at all.

Meanwhile we have to watch Murray and Walker and Poeltl and Eubanks toss up weak ass shot after weak ass shot and never defend anyone.

Jones is raw but is a player. He has more positive effect on a game in 5 minutes than Murray does all game. I'd love to see him play with the regulars instead of Murray just to see.
Samanic is barely good enough to play for Austin
Eubanks is embarassing
Johnson plays like a man. Can you imagine Walker or Murray or Poeltl playing with his aggressiveness?
Lyles is playing a little better. You can tell he is still playing his way into shape.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#13 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 7:27 am

Funny how two people can watch the same game and get different impressions. There's no hiding DJ's poor performance today, but I disagree that he's 'doing next to nothing like usual'. Not sure how many full games you've watched so far, gump, but DJ's actually shown noticeable progress, probably second best only to Keldon.

Lonnie needs to step up. And he need look no farther than his teammate Tre Jones about how to finish with his left hand. It's not some difficult addition to the tool kit. Tre is solid. Nice connection with Devin already.

Devin was terrific in pre-season but has struggled with the speed and physicality of the NBA and he's so far only sat out one game. But when a guy struggles and you want to win, you try someone else. I do agree that his defensive presence almost always makes an impact, but his handles and bad shooting have stood out compared to pre-season. Steep learning curve without Summer League and a longer preparation time.

Luka's issue is he tends to disappear when he doesn't have the ball. He came along well in Austin and looked comfortable there, but he keeps trying to make some stand out, behind the back dribble up and under play that gets swatted. Pump fake and go up strong. That's it. Nice 3 stroke.

Strongly disagree about Trey, especially in relation to where he was before the bubble. How can a guy be playing himself into shape?! Guess those workout videos were suspect. He was supposed to show up in shape. Like everyone else. Even Luka has better muscle tone, and he arrived looking like a beanstalk. No wonder he can't crack a the line-up in a position of need, this when he started last season.

Keldon Johnson is the real deal. You can't teach that 100% intensity all the time. It's too bad more players don't have even half of it. More guys need to step up like he has. And if young guys had the hustle he does, they'd force Pop to play them. As it stands, we go with whoever is producing, even if it's away from our desired style of play. More on that...
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#14 » by Phreak50 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 8:04 am

I am one who agrees with Murray being next to useless. At least on offense.

He plays so erratic and loose on the dribble and with his drives. His form on his jumper will almost never be reliable or consistent.

He isn't a creator for others, isn't a good enough shooter to be a 2 guard.

I initially saw the potential with his length and defense but he hasn't come close to living up to it on the offensive end.

I think most Spurs fan will admit that we hype up anyone who is half decently athletic, simply because we've almost never had athletic guards.

Murray probably wouldn't start on 90% of teams in the league.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#15 » by imagump1313 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 2:38 pm

GREY 1769 wrote:Funny how two people can watch the same game and get different impressions. There's no hiding DJ's poor performance today, but I disagree that he's 'doing next to nothing like usual'. Not sure how many full games you've watched so far, gump, but DJ's actually shown noticeable progress, probably second best only to Keldon.


I've watched almost every minute of every game.(I turned the first Laker game off at the end because it was making me want to barf) I watch and judge players by how they play basketball, not with lame stats than can always be skewed to fit arguments. I even commented in a game thread this year about how Murray actually played better. I think I described it as "better than useless, can we get more of that please?" . I'm actually in agreement that he has played slightly better, but better than what? The barely G-League type of game with almost no basketball instincts whatsoever? Phreak50 describes his game almost perfectly.
I think many Spurs fans like you are just soo hopeful and you want soo badly for him to be good that you see things that just aren't there.

GREY 1769 wrote:Lonnie needs to step up. And he need look no farther than his teammate Tre Jones about how to finish with his left hand. It's not some difficult addition to the tool kit. Tre is solid. Nice connection with Devin already.



I actually see improvement in Walker's game also. But it's improvement into a bench player. He is not a starter. He is weak defensively(mostly because of effort and size) and he only drives right going to the basket. Granted, many players can only go one way or the other strongly but good players(IE:starters) can. He is similar to Murray in regards that he doesn't make good basketball decisions, he doesn't make anyone around him better, he cannot see others cutting to the basket. He has a future in the NBA if he keeps improving but its not as a starter.

GREY 1769 wrote:Devin was terrific in pre-season but has struggled with the speed and physicality of the NBA and he's so far only sat out one game. But when a guy struggles and you want to win, you try someone else. I do agree that his defensive presence almost always makes an impact, but his handles and bad shooting have stood out compared to pre-season. Steep learning curve without Summer League and a longer preparation time.


I don't see him struggling with NBA talent. Granted he has a lot to learn but he's not going to learn by sitting around. At least he bodies up people and actually defends NBA caliber players. He has good basketball instincts. His problem right now is he isn't as aggressive as he was in preseason for whatever reason. IMO it looks like he is pressing because of hardly getting a chance to play.
I understand trying to win but what are we trying to win? We haven't won anything with this cast and aren't going to. Lets at least give the kid some time to develop.

GREY 1769 wrote:Luka's issue is he tends to disappear when he doesn't have the ball. He came along well in Austin and looked comfortable there, but he keeps trying to make some stand out, behind the back dribble up and under play that gets swatted. Pump fake and go up strong. That's it. Nice 3 stroke.


I agree, but IMO he is light years away from being an NBA player physically.

GREY 1769 wrote:Strongly disagree about Trey, especially in relation to where he was before the bubble. How can a guy be playing himself into shape?! Guess those workout videos were suspect. He was supposed to show up in shape. Like everyone else. Even Luka has better muscle tone, and he arrived looking like a beanstalk. No wonder he can't crack a the line-up in a position of need, this when he started last season.


He was a reliable player just last year. He just doesn't look the same now. I don't know what he did in the off season. I only know what I see now. Maybe he needed more structure and being around the team which he couldn't. I agree there isn't a good excuse for not being prepared but we are here now.

GREY 1769 wrote:Keldon Johnson is the real deal. You can't teach that 100% intensity all the time. It's too bad more players don't have even half of it. More guys need to step up like he has. And if young guys had the hustle he does, they'd force Pop to play them. As it stands, we go with whoever is producing, even if it's away from our desired style of play. More on that...


If everyone played like him then they wouldn't stand out. Its just human nature I guess. I always want players I like to play with the red ass that Russel Westbrook plays with.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#16 » by GREY 1769 » Mon Jan 4, 2021 6:39 pm

imagump1313 wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:Funny how two people can watch the same game and get different impressions. There's no hiding DJ's poor performance today, but I disagree that he's 'doing next to nothing like usual'. Not sure how many full games you've watched so far, gump, but DJ's actually shown noticeable progress, probably second best only to Keldon.


I've watched almost every minute of every game.(I turned the first Laker game off at the end because it was making me want to barf) I watch and judge players by how they play basketball, not with lame stats than can always be skewed to fit arguments. I even commented in a game thread this year about how Murray actually played better. I think I described it as "better than useless, can we get more of that please?" . I'm actually in agreement that he has played slightly better, but better than what? The barely G-League type of game with almost no basketball instincts whatsoever? Phreak50 describes his game almost perfectly.
I think many Spurs fans like you are just soo hopeful and you want soo badly for him to be good that you see things that just aren't there.

GREY 1769 wrote:Lonnie needs to step up. And he need look no farther than his teammate Tre Jones about how to finish with his left hand. It's not some difficult addition to the tool kit. Tre is solid. Nice connection with Devin already.



I actually see improvement in Walker's game also. But it's improvement into a bench player. He is not a starter. He is weak defensively(mostly because of effort and size) and he only drives right going to the basket. Granted, many players can only go one way or the other strongly but good players(IE:starters) can. He is similar to Murray in regards that he doesn't make good basketball decisions, he doesn't make anyone around him better, he cannot see others cutting to the basket. He has a future in the NBA if he keeps improving but its not as a starter.

GREY 1769 wrote:Devin was terrific in pre-season but has struggled with the speed and physicality of the NBA and he's so far only sat out one game. But when a guy struggles and you want to win, you try someone else. I do agree that his defensive presence almost always makes an impact, but his handles and bad shooting have stood out compared to pre-season. Steep learning curve without Summer League and a longer preparation time.


I don't see him struggling with NBA talent. Granted he has a lot to learn but he's not going to learn by sitting around. At least he bodies up people and actually defends NBA caliber players. He has good basketball instincts. His problem right now is he isn't as aggressive as he was in preseason for whatever reason. IMO it looks like he is pressing because of hardly getting a chance to play.
I understand trying to win but what are we trying to win? We haven't won anything with this cast and aren't going to. Lets at least give the kid some time to develop.

GREY 1769 wrote:Luka's issue is he tends to disappear when he doesn't have the ball. He came along well in Austin and looked comfortable there, but he keeps trying to make some stand out, behind the back dribble up and under play that gets swatted. Pump fake and go up strong. That's it. Nice 3 stroke.


I agree, but IMO he is light years away from being an NBA player physically.

GREY 1769 wrote:Strongly disagree about Trey, especially in relation to where he was before the bubble. How can a guy be playing himself into shape?! Guess those workout videos were suspect. He was supposed to show up in shape. Like everyone else. Even Luka has better muscle tone, and he arrived looking like a beanstalk. No wonder he can't crack a the line-up in a position of need, this when he started last season.


He was a reliable player just last year. He just doesn't look the same now. I don't know what he did in the off season. I only know what I see now. Maybe he needed more structure and being around the team which he couldn't. I agree there isn't a good excuse for not being prepared but we are here now.

GREY 1769 wrote:Keldon Johnson is the real deal. You can't teach that 100% intensity all the time. It's too bad more players don't have even half of it. More guys need to step up like he has. And if young guys had the hustle he does, they'd force Pop to play them. As it stands, we go with whoever is producing, even if it's away from our desired style of play. More on that...


If everyone played like him then they wouldn't stand out. Its just human nature I guess. I always want players I like to play with the red ass that Russel Westbrook plays with.

Well like I said, gump, without getting into stats, it's funny how people can look at the same thing and come to such diverse conclusions. I think DJ's passing in transition is better - moving the ball ahead sooner, driving much more assertively and kicking out right to where teammates are; his scoring - efficiency both Js and at the rim - importnat given he's driving more like he's been told to, but also both where he shoots from and balance between when to pass or shoot is better; his defense is still solid. He's not as good in half court. Derrick thrives in both. And I've watched most of the games on opponent streams and DJ gets credit often by commentators for his improved game. Fans of other teams here notice him, too. Are you sure you aren't also seeing him with a skewed POV and fitting criticisms to fit a bias? He's flawed and not a pure PG but barely G-league type of game?

Lonnie's improved with finishing at the right but his right hand dominance is maddening. Agree that he's be better with these minutes off the bench as he could use his speed bursts to overtake other bench players. Yeah he's still in the process of growing his game but agree he's not a starter, at least not right now. That's the issue with Lonnie right now - bursts here and there rather than really putting his mark on a game,any game, like each of DJ, Keldon already have. He's starting by default with Derrick out and when he returns in earnest, Lonnie will go back to his bench role. Where he progresses from there we'll see.

Devin only sat one game so far, the one Derrick returned. I don't think that's any indication about how the actual rotation would be with DW back for good. He's terrific in team D, understands where to be, rotates really well and makes an impact like when he prevented Gobert of all people from scoring down low last night. But on man D? Yeah it's too fast for him right now. And his terrific efficiency from pre-season has yet to return. Despite that, he's getting more regular minutes sooner than any of DJ, Derrick, Lonnie, even Keldon ever had at this point so he's not really sitting around. But positionally at the 3 he has a harder ceiling to crack right now. We're not in the shoot ourselves in the foot business. If he has a great stretch of games he'll get more minutes, like Keldon, for instance. What I do agree with is less usage for, say, Rudy and more for Devin when they're out there.

I went back and read Euro scouting reports on Luka thinking that this level might be too overwhelming for him mentally and it taking time to adjust (that's part of the reason, not the whole for the slower development) but nope, the tendencies to disappear without the ball and lack of consistent tenacity were there also. That was the knock on Lonnie and he's gotten better, I think. But I don't get how getting dined by Pop and Timmy and drafted by the Spurs doesn't make one want to jump out of themselves with excitement and improve in all the ways the team outlines, but we did do our due diligence. Also looked at that draft again. Keldon was obviously a steal, but outside of Matisse, I'm not that impressed with the players that were drafted after Luka so here's hoping he puts it together. We sorely need a talent influx at the 4 (and 5 but we'll have to look elsewhere).

Someone on Twitter pointed out an apparent lack of desire and I agree. Does Trey actually love basketball? I mean you have to to get to the NBA, but he keeps showing flashes of another level and then levels down. I'm not convinced he loves enough to grind behind the scenes and absolutely make the most of this, his third shot in the NBA with a team that will absolutely put a player on a path to succeed. The team structure is a good point. The team ensures contact with players in the off-season, but it does boil down to personal motivation. What a pity that someone with his skill set doesn't have the mindset to measure.

And I guess to finish up, the Keldon comment was meant more about the team compete level. We lost it early in this game, and I'm putting some thoughts together as to why I think that is, but guys like Trey, Luka on the one end and Lonnie and even at times Jakob when he's too tentative on the other of the passive scale need to develop or get a fire lit under their arses. Force Pop to play you and refuse to be outcompeted.

Gump, I think I owe you a beer - or was that a keg? - for our bet. You were right about Bryn :wink:
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#17 » by imagump1313 » Tue Jan 5, 2021 12:55 am

GREY 1769 wrote:Well like I said, gump, without getting into stats, it's funny how people can look at the same thing and come to such diverse conclusions. I think DJ's passing in transition is better - moving the ball ahead sooner, driving much more assertively and kicking out right to where teammates are; his scoring - efficiency both Js and at the rim - importnat given he's driving more like he's been told to, but also both where he shoots from and balance between when to pass or shoot is better; his defense is still solid. He's not as good in half court. Derrick thrives in both. And I've watched most of the games on opponent streams and DJ gets credit often by commentators for his improved game. Fans of other teams here notice him, too. Are you sure you aren't also seeing him with a skewed POV and fitting criticisms to fit a bias? He's flawed and not a pure PG but barely G-league type of game?


Yeah, maybe barely G-league is a little harsh. :D
We have another what? Another 68 games to evaluate him more thoroughly but I just don't see him amounting to much of an NBA player. Phreak50 is absolutely right in saying Murray couldn't start for 90% of NBA teams right now. I want him to succeed as a Spurs fan, I really do.
You mentioned his transition passing is better. Moving the ball sooner. He is a freaking NBA player. This is grade school stuff that 6th graders know how to do and we are wasting time with him learning how to do it now. I first soured on him when he had an entire season off with his injury and he didn't improve his jump shot one ounce. Yet he still thinks he is going to take over the franchise. Like I said, we have a whole season to see how much he wants to improve. I'll let it play out.

GREY 1769 wrote:Lonnie's improved with finishing at the right but his right hand dominance is maddening. Agree that he's be better with these minutes off the bench as he could use his speed bursts to overtake other bench players. Yeah he's still in the process of growing his game but agree he's not a starter, at least not right now. That's the issue with Lonnie right now - bursts here and there rather than really putting his mark on a game,any game, like each of DJ, Keldon already have. He's starting by default with Derrick out and when he returns in earnest, Lonnie will go back to his bench role. Where he progresses from there we'll see.


Agreed. I'm hoping he returns to the bench when White returns. We knew when we drafted him that he was raw. He has many of the same issues that Murray has in that he really doesn't know how to positively effect a game. He mostly just drifts around to the point where sometimes you don't even know he is out there(until the other team gets an easy basket, lol) He is also too small to be anything other than a 2 guard in the NBA and he doesn't shoot or defend well enough to do that consistently. Again we have the rest of the year to evaluate him but right now his ceiling looks like a role player or at best a 6th man.

GREY 1769 wrote:Devin only sat one game so far, the one Derrick returned. I don't think that's any indication about how the actual rotation would be with DW back for good. He's terrific in team D, understands where to be, rotates really well and makes an impact like when he prevented Gobert of all people from scoring down low last night. But on man D? Yeah it's too fast for him right now. And his terrific efficiency from pre-season has yet to return. Despite that, he's getting more regular minutes sooner than any of DJ, Derrick, Lonnie, even Keldon ever had at this point so he's not really sitting around. But positionally at the 3 he has a harder ceiling to crack right now. We're not in the shoot ourselves in the foot business. If he has a great stretch of games he'll get more minutes, like Keldon, for instance. What I do agree with is less usage for, say, Rudy and more for Devin when they're out there.


I actually can understand why they couldn't get him in the game vs LA because of their size and Aldridge being out. What bothers me sometimes is that IMO he is far more advanced basketball-wise than Murray and Walker at this early stage so I want him to be in the mix for minutes. Not in Austin. Like I keep saying, this is an evaluation season so lets evaluate. Throw him into the fire. We are not borderline contenders who could afford to ease rookies in slowly. We aren't winning anything this season. I am afraid they are going to sit him all year of **** him to Austin, then next season we will be like "Ok, now lets see what he can do"
He has shown enough maturity already that he can handle NBA talent. Why waste time. This season can be soo useful to our future if we do things right and not play DeRozan, Aldridge and Gay 30 minutes a night.

GREY 1769 wrote:I went back and read Euro scouting reports on Luka thinking that this level might be too overwhelming for him mentally and it taking time to adjust (that's part of the reason, not the whole for the slower development) but nope, the tendencies to disappear without the ball and lack of consistent tenacity were there also. That was the knock on Lonnie and he's gotten better, I think. But I don't get how getting dined by Pop and Timmy and drafted by the Spurs doesn't make one want to jump out of themselves with excitement and improve in all the ways the team outlines, but we did do our due diligence. Also looked at that draft again. Keldon was obviously a steal, but outside of Matisse, I'm not that impressed with the players that were drafted after Luka so here's hoping he puts it together. We sorely need a talent influx at the 4 (and 5 but we'll have to look elsewhere).


I don't hate Samanic or given up on him. He just looks many light years away from being an NBA player both physically and mentally. I would say Austin is good for him for now.

GREY 1769 wrote:Someone on Twitter pointed out an apparent lack of desire and I agree. Does Trey actually love basketball? I mean you have to to get to the NBA, but he keeps showing flashes of another level and then levels down. I'm not convinced he loves enough to grind behind the scenes and absolutely make the most of this, his third shot in the NBA with a team that will absolutely put a player on a path to succeed. The team structure is a good point. The team ensures contact with players in the off-season, but it does boil down to personal motivation. What a pity that someone with his skill set doesn't have the mindset to measure.


Only Lyles know the truth. It could have been that because of the injury and the covid world and the haste in which the season was thrown together that things got away from him and he didn't take his training seriously. For weeks they said the season was going to start in mid January. Then because of TV money at the last minute they pushed it to before Christmas. Maybe in the back of his mind he thought he had more time? Still not a good excuse but he has shown maturity or desire problems before. All I know is he looks out of shape. Again IMO its an evaluation year so hopefully he catches up and gets back to helping us.

GREY 1769 wrote:And I guess to finish up, the Keldon comment was meant more about the team compete level. We lost it early in this game, and I'm putting some thoughts together as to why I think that is, but guys like Trey, Luka on the one end and Lonnie and even at times Jakob when he's too tentative on the other of the passive scale need to develop or get a fire lit under their arses. Force Pop to play you and refuse to be outcompeted.

Gump, I think I owe you a beer - or was that a keg? - for our bet. You were right about Bryn :wink:


I dont remember exactly what the bet was. Was it that he would be as up and down in Milwaukee as he was here? That is just the player he is.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#18 » by GREY 1769 » Tue Jan 5, 2021 2:14 am

imagump1313 wrote:
GREY 1769 wrote:Well like I said, gump, without getting into stats, it's funny how people can look at the same thing and come to such diverse conclusions. I think DJ's passing in transition is better - moving the ball ahead sooner, driving much more assertively and kicking out right to where teammates are; his scoring - efficiency both Js and at the rim - importnat given he's driving more like he's been told to, but also both where he shoots from and balance between when to pass or shoot is better; his defense is still solid. He's not as good in half court. Derrick thrives in both. And I've watched most of the games on opponent streams and DJ gets credit often by commentators for his improved game. Fans of other teams here notice him, too. Are you sure you aren't also seeing him with a skewed POV and fitting criticisms to fit a bias? He's flawed and not a pure PG but barely G-league type of game?


Yeah, maybe barely G-league is a little harsh. :D
We have another what? Another 68 games to evaluate him more thoroughly but I just don't see him amounting to much of an NBA player. Phreak50 is absolutely right in saying Murray couldn't start for 90% of NBA teams right now. I want him to succeed as a Spurs fan, I really do.
You mentioned his transition passing is better. Moving the ball sooner. He is a freaking NBA player. This is grade school stuff that 6th graders know how to do and we are wasting time with him learning how to do it now. I first soured on him when he had an entire season off with his injury and he didn't improve his jump shot one ounce. Yet he still thinks he is going to take over the franchise. Like I said, we have a whole season to see how much he wants to improve. I'll let it play out.

GREY 1769 wrote:Lonnie's improved with finishing at the right but his right hand dominance is maddening. Agree that he's be better with these minutes off the bench as he could use his speed bursts to overtake other bench players. Yeah he's still in the process of growing his game but agree he's not a starter, at least not right now. That's the issue with Lonnie right now - bursts here and there rather than really putting his mark on a game,any game, like each of DJ, Keldon already have. He's starting by default with Derrick out and when he returns in earnest, Lonnie will go back to his bench role. Where he progresses from there we'll see.


Agreed. I'm hoping he returns to the bench when White returns. We knew when we drafted him that he was raw. He has many of the same issues that Murray has in that he really doesn't know how to positively effect a game. He mostly just drifts around to the point where sometimes you don't even know he is out there(until the other team gets an easy basket, lol) He is also too small to be anything other than a 2 guard in the NBA and he doesn't shoot or defend well enough to do that consistently. Again we have the rest of the year to evaluate him but right now his ceiling looks like a role player or at best a 6th man.

GREY 1769 wrote:Devin only sat one game so far, the one Derrick returned. I don't think that's any indication about how the actual rotation would be with DW back for good. He's terrific in team D, understands where to be, rotates really well and makes an impact like when he prevented Gobert of all people from scoring down low last night. But on man D? Yeah it's too fast for him right now. And his terrific efficiency from pre-season has yet to return. Despite that, he's getting more regular minutes sooner than any of DJ, Derrick, Lonnie, even Keldon ever had at this point so he's not really sitting around. But positionally at the 3 he has a harder ceiling to crack right now. We're not in the shoot ourselves in the foot business. If he has a great stretch of games he'll get more minutes, like Keldon, for instance. What I do agree with is less usage for, say, Rudy and more for Devin when they're out there.


I actually can understand why they couldn't get him in the game vs LA because of their size and Aldridge being out. What bothers me sometimes is that IMO he is far more advanced basketball-wise than Murray and Walker at this early stage so I want him to be in the mix for minutes. Not in Austin. Like I keep saying, this is an evaluation season so lets evaluate. Throw him into the fire. We are not borderline contenders who could afford to ease rookies in slowly. We aren't winning anything this season. I am afraid they are going to sit him all year of **** him to Austin, then next season we will be like "Ok, now lets see what he can do"
He has shown enough maturity already that he can handle NBA talent. Why waste time. This season can be soo useful to our future if we do things right and not play DeRozan, Aldridge and Gay 30 minutes a night.

GREY 1769 wrote:I went back and read Euro scouting reports on Luka thinking that this level might be too overwhelming for him mentally and it taking time to adjust (that's part of the reason, not the whole for the slower development) but nope, the tendencies to disappear without the ball and lack of consistent tenacity were there also. That was the knock on Lonnie and he's gotten better, I think. But I don't get how getting dined by Pop and Timmy and drafted by the Spurs doesn't make one want to jump out of themselves with excitement and improve in all the ways the team outlines, but we did do our due diligence. Also looked at that draft again. Keldon was obviously a steal, but outside of Matisse, I'm not that impressed with the players that were drafted after Luka so here's hoping he puts it together. We sorely need a talent influx at the 4 (and 5 but we'll have to look elsewhere).


I don't hate Samanic or given up on him. He just looks many light years away from being an NBA player both physically and mentally. I would say Austin is good for him for now.

GREY 1769 wrote:Someone on Twitter pointed out an apparent lack of desire and I agree. Does Trey actually love basketball? I mean you have to to get to the NBA, but he keeps showing flashes of another level and then levels down. I'm not convinced he loves enough to grind behind the scenes and absolutely make the most of this, his third shot in the NBA with a team that will absolutely put a player on a path to succeed. The team structure is a good point. The team ensures contact with players in the off-season, but it does boil down to personal motivation. What a pity that someone with his skill set doesn't have the mindset to measure.


Only Lyles know the truth. It could have been that because of the injury and the covid world and the haste in which the season was thrown together that things got away from him and he didn't take his training seriously. For weeks they said the season was going to start in mid January. Then because of TV money at the last minute they pushed it to before Christmas. Maybe in the back of his mind he thought he had more time? Still not a good excuse but he has shown maturity or desire problems before. All I know is he looks out of shape. Again IMO its an evaluation year so hopefully he catches up and gets back to helping us.

GREY 1769 wrote:And I guess to finish up, the Keldon comment was meant more about the team compete level. We lost it early in this game, and I'm putting some thoughts together as to why I think that is, but guys like Trey, Luka on the one end and Lonnie and even at times Jakob when he's too tentative on the other of the passive scale need to develop or get a fire lit under their arses. Force Pop to play you and refuse to be outcompeted.

Gump, I think I owe you a beer - or was that a keg? - for our bet. You were right about Bryn :wink:


I dont remember exactly what the bet was. Was it that he would be as up and down in Milwaukee as he was here? That is just the player he is.

Well DJ got drafted 29th after one season of college for similar reasons other players in that range do - potential. I don't want to write him off as what he is he is just yet given what he's shown so far this season, but I have found some interesting data and it looks as if that evaluation you're talking about is in full force and DJ is being given a chance to show he can run a team. This will be his second full year in doing so and basic P&R should be a staple in the tool kit. I guess the passing ahead was in comparison to what he used to do, and what guys like Rudy and to a lesser extent DeMar still don't on fast breaks.

Agree about Lonnie's and DJ's vision / reading the game / impact on the game. I do think Lonnie's shown some flashes - again like DJ - but putting it together consistently will be his - or rather their - next step. Their situations are so similar: raw, drafted later than projected, injured, a tantalizing collection of skills which each has to work to coalesce. He'll thrive from the bench and it will help him see the game better over time, too.

Someone pointed out on Twitter that Luka was like the fourth option in Austin and even then he looked far more composed in the eight or so games I watched. Agree that Austin as more of a #1 or #2 option is a nice progression for him.

I think all the signs point to Devin sticking around. It's so clear that he along with Derrick is already in the smartest defenders on the team category. You can see him thinking, reading, and reacting in the right way. And when he does, it's like sunlight parting an overcast sky -- so that's what sound, proper, smart, responsible D looks like! And he'll get more chances as the season progresses. He's clearly trending the right way.

The bet was two seasons ago, I believe. I thought Bryn would put it all together and have a more rounded game. You gave him credit for bulking up and being durable for the year, but said he is what he is and not to expect a higher ceiling. Well... yeah I lost that one :lol: Can you imagine if he were a FA after last season? He was shooting at around 40% from 3 and we would have to have paid him. Funny how timing works. Phew! Happy for him with the Bucks, though. Good spot and good role for him.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#19 » by imagump1313 » Tue Jan 5, 2021 5:15 am

GREY 1769 wrote:The bet was two seasons ago, I believe. I thought he'd put it all together and have a more rounded game. You gave him credit for bulking up and being durable for the year, but said he is what he is and not to expect a higher ceiling. Well... yeah I lost that one :lol: Can you imagine if he were a FA after last season? He was shooting at around 40% from 3 and we would have to have paid him. Funny how timing works. Phew! Happy for him with the Bucks, though. Good spot and good role for him.


Ahhh! I wish I wasn't right about him. Bucks fans are really hating on him right now. He seems like a good guy. Thank goodness we didn't resign him and waste cap space though.
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Re: GAME DAY, BALA! GAME 6: SPURS VS. JAZZ, 3-1-2021, 6PM (CT) 

Post#20 » by GREY 1769 » Tue Jan 5, 2021 10:04 am

Oof! That's the TL;DR version.

If fans know the strengths of this opponent, of course whichever Spurs assistant scouted the game does, too. The things we did well from the game before and the spirit with which we did them both left us rather early.

They made more 3s than we attempted at the half, by which point we lost the wind in our sails, and the same thing by the end of the game - 21 made 3s for them to 19 attempted by us, on which we connected a woeful six. In the previous game Keldon nearly matched our entire team's output in this one after connecting on 5-9 from the arc. He didn't attempt any in this game, but drove relentlessly instead all while providing stellar D once again. We can't expect him to do everything for us.

We kept miscommunicating on D so our rotations were late resulting in far too many open 3s. But we've been lucky. There is a pattern of a systemic issue unfolding:
Read on Twitter


I just watched the GSW play some hard D and in a post-game interview Dre was asked about influencing the young guys to defend the arc so well and he said he doesn't focus on that specifically - if you defend, you defend. We need a hardass voice like that in the group, not just from Pop. Vets like Dre make the young guys fall in line in the best way. We have a lot of good guys, and while most are on the same D page, all it takes is one player not doing the right thing and the whole D scheme falls apart. And it did again and again.

DeMar's body language wasn't great in this game. He was visibly frustrated on a fast break in which he dribbled the ball and with DJ ahead on his left he passed just when Lonnie flew from behind to take pass for a layup attempt. Three Spurs within the narrow width of the key on a fast break. Textbook.

On the D end, we had D intelligence like this:
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DeMar has long had a habit of looking busy fighting to go over screens but then when he's prevented he just... stops! He faces the action that just went past him and... watches. Sweet Baby Jesus give me strength. There have been times when it's been impressed upon him to not abandon the play and he caught up to the ball handler so as to not allow a difficult choice for the big and others, but this screen issue is more often than not the case.

What struck me in this game is that the fight left us rather early and that's frankly concerning. With Derrick out and DJ struggling epically, the ball handling duties also went to DeMar. And that's fine, he's good at it, but he kept on walking the ball up the court. Like literally walking it up. WALKING. THE. BALL. UP. THE. COURT. It drives me **** batty. Last season we didn't really have a clear identity as to what kind of team we were with this half transition, half half-court style that didn't coalesce as the two kept interfering with one another. The first wanted to take over; the second didn't want to let go. By the time of the bubble play, it sorted itself out and the renewed energy from the uptempo style rejuvenated and galvanized everyone. It was clear which was now to be the dominant force.

DeMar scored well enough, but the more he handles the ball, the more his preferred way of getting points is rearing its head again. Re-enter the friction with the bubble style of play, re-enter this agent of fracture, re-enter the waning confidence. The vets on the bench are important to us having another solid supporting cast that is on the whole positively consistent and collectively productive:
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And while I'm admittedly partial to and so biased about Patty, he's been all kinds of wonderful:
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He's also our best 3-point scorer connecting on 53.6% :o of his 4.7 attempts per game. His usage is only 16.5%, too. Patty's also one of the few Spurs who can make the 3 from his dribble. Pretty much the perfect complementary game to what we're trying to achieve with bubble ball.

But Rudy and DeMar are both reverting back more to their long-ingrained styles of play and it frankly conflicts with that of what we're after. Why is DeMar allowed to let opponents set up on D, waste the clock waiting for the play to unfold, then we pass around the arc under pressure and heave a late clock shot or drive into multiple defenders. Our O looked so laboured, too out of sync trying to create something out of over-orchestrated but ultimately less well executed plays.

Why does Rudy keep having tunnel vision when he gets the ball, dribbling up the court or too long while wide open teammates wave their arms only to watch him heave contested shots. We had multiple possessions in which both DeMar and Rudy didn't give the ball to anybody before they shot it. Nobody else touching the ball is vet hierarchy. It's fine if it's the best play, but if it happens enough times it communicates that whatever the vets choose is 'the right play' takes others out of the team concept, the one where more teammates take on a bigger responsibility for the outcome. Combine unintelligent, poor-effort D with slow, hog-ball O and it makes for a wedge between what we say we want to be and what are. Can't have that.

We are far better suited to the D-to-O transition game that is based on a more egalitarian, ball movement oriented style. When we get over 30 assists, our winning record is proportionately stellar. Instead, here's a sample size of what we were doing:
Read on Twitter


In one of the first two games we won, I mentioned how we looked like an early version of of the 2014 beautiful game team - more in intent than same execution, but there were some positive results.
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This intrusion of old style of play is having a ripple effect on the team. We are supposed to be taking more 3s. However:
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and:
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So fewer taken, fewer made, and here's how we're getting them:
Read on Twitter


There's also a stat I'm still hunting down that shows how many of our 3s are from off the dribble rather than from a pass and the majority are from the latter. While that's not necessarily bad, we do need more of the former, and when we don't pass enough, we're clearly not going to get those 3s going.

Lonnie as gump and I have discussed is a developing player who needs to stand out more. The book on him was a tendency to disappear on both ends, and while consistency is better, there are still issues that stand out:
Read on Twitter


One play does not a bad defender make. But it's just one example of out of position (this tends to happen enough for me to have made note of it in other game threads) and ball watching (the DeMar D special) that needs attention and better focus. Some have D smarts coming into the league; others need to work on them a little harder.

On O, he's been noticeably muted. This is one indication:
Read on Twitter


Yikes. He's too athletic and strong to allow this trend to continue.

DJ. This game needs to be flushed. Full stop. So here's a look at a broader pattern. Cover your eyes, gump:
Read on Twitter


The conversation continues with ideas that the Spurs perhaps wanting more of a sample size of what DJ can do with the bubble style (after struggling with the half court sets last season) and that this may not be his ideal role, rather Bruno Passos suggests DJ becoming a more slasher / shooter type like maybe Barton.

It's early, but all of these indicate an imbalance, one we're searching for, but as we do we tend to play in a way that reverts to comfortable habits which may be a hindrance to achieving it.

We are doing some things well:
Read on Twitter


*First four games*
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We have to get back to and have faith in developing what we do best: D to O transition, ball movement, more purposeful passing, more 3s. We've gotten away from all of these and it's affecting other team aspects of the game like rebounding, competitiveness, and hustle. We play better and with a stronger spirit when we buy in to bubble-style play.

Context matters to our ups and downs as well. We've yet to get our starting line-up playing together. We're down two starters, and have two new starters (three if you count Jakob). So this is once again a new season with shortened preparation and we're having to get by while implementing a new style with new players and new tendencies to get used to. We're resorting to 6'6" Keldon at the 4 for God's sake. I mean, he's been spectacular, and perhaps we're over-relying on him.

I think with Derrick out we will see Devin get more minutes and hopefully he gets less tentative on O as he gets more comfortable. Focusing on Silver and Black linings here.

Our turnstile starting group is marched only by the difficulty in the early schedule. Beginning the season away, we returned home for a hello single game before turning back around on the road for the second game of our first back to back. Then a three-game home stand against the defending champs and a strong conference opponent, and now a five-game road trip, starting out west for two tough LA games, then onto another back-to-back in Minny, ending with a game in OKC. So five conference opponents across three cities in eight nights. Brutal. But if we can stay together, weather the scheduling storm and the challenge of developing cohesion amidst changing line-ups while remaining competitive and even keeled, we'll have put ourselves in a stronger position going forward. We have the personnel to do it. More have to step up the right bubble style way for us.
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