Sometimes the truth hurts!

[D5150]

if you are trying to equate superstar status with salary you are not paying very close attention to the nba. that formula simply does not work

[wiff]

if you are trying to equate superstar status with salary you are not paying very close attention to the nba. that formula simply does not work

I can say there are bad contracts given to players who are on the wrong side of 30 ala Chris Webber, Ben Wallace. Sure those are bad contracts.

But seriously who thought T-Macs contract was going to stink by the time the guy turns 29.

And I want you to find an article published somewhere that says the sentiment his last two years of his contract (and prime) his contract was going to suck.

Find this or admit you were talking out of your ass. Because that is the most absurd statement I have read in here from a non-troll.

No GM gives you 45 mil expecting you to stink.

Why shouldn't I expect T-Mac to be a superstar during the season that he is 28?

Keep spinning your statement Benji.

[Dick Tate]

I tell you who thought he'd be a superstar: the Rockets organization. Otherwise they wouldn't have given him $18,257,750 for 2008 would they?

The Sonics paid Wally Szczerbiak $12M. Who got the better deal?

[BenjaminH]

Wiff, you are the one saying that you thought McGrady would be a superstar this year. On the other hand, I did not think he would be (- he has exceeded expectations). But your opinion is, at best, disingenuous because you've spent the majority of this thread criticizing McGrady. Please try to be a little bit more forthcoming. Did you really think McGrady would be a superstar this year? Or did you think he would underachieve for his contract? The two are incompatible. Do you understand?

(Also, I would appreciate it if you watch your potty-mouth. That kind if language is unbecoming.)

BBen, you are right that there is a strong correlation between contract size and expectations. But as D5150 noted, it is at best a correlation, and far from an identity relation.

I should also note now that McGrady broke his fourth quarter slump last night. But the real hero was Carl Landry. He is an incredible offensive rebounder and his last play was probably the best defensive play so far in the playoffs - in probably the second best game so far in the playoffs. At the time, I didn't really understand why we traded him. We probably won't get equal value for the 31st overall pick. I know that we really didn't have room for him on our roster, so I kind of understand it. But, in retrospect, he would be a great Sonic.

[BBen]

if you are trying to equate superstar status with salary you are not paying very close attention to the nba. that formula simply does not work

Hahahahaha

Tmac (28 years old) salary, 2008: $18,257,750
Kobe Bryant (29 years old) salary, 2008: $19,490,625

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. If you want to argue after that has been presented to you go for it.

[D5150]

HAHAHAHAHA?

thats mature.

you made a comparison between two players. not exactly an iron clad argument, especially since you included arguably the games best player.

but thank you for presenting me with that. i appreciate your attempt to educate me ball boy.

[wiff]

Wiff, you are the one saying that you thought McGrady would be a superstar this year. On the other hand, I did not think he would be (- he has exceeded expectations). But your opinion is, at best, disingenuous because you've spent the majority of this thread criticizing McGrady.

(Also, I would appreciate it if you watch your potty-mouth. That kind if language is unbecoming.)

What freakin' thread are you reading Benji? I do not think T-Mac is a superstar, that is my point.

But I don't agree with you that the majority of fans felt his last two years of his contract were going to be bloated. I think most fans felt his contract was warranted. Now try to keep up Benji I hate having to review point by point so you can follow along with the rest of the class.

T-Mac is a good player in the league, not a great player and no where near superstar.

And yes there are expectations that come with contract size. That's why you don't see Luke Ridnour making 10mil a year.

[BenjaminH]

Wiff, I think I understand you better now. I was saying that nobody expected McGrady to be a superstar this season. You disagreed and asked me to search for some articles for you (as if articles would accurately express our fan expectations in the first place!). This was very confusing precisely because you were arguing earlier that McGrady was not a superstar. On the one hand, (it seemed) you thought he was a superstar when I said he wasn't, yet you also do not think he is. (You can understand why you confused everybody. You were not expressing yourself clearly; your response to my earlier post was incredibly vague and misleading. So, I will emphasis, please be more forthcoming in the future.)

Now I see that what you were actually disagreeing with was whether the majority of fans thought the tail end of his contract were going to be overpriced. I can admit that is a closer call. I would be very surprised if the majority of fans sincerely believed that he would be a superstar, if by superstar we mean he is at least mentioned in the MVP conversation. Here is my estimation. The majority of fans thought he would be a superstar the first year, and then taper off into a mere all-star ... which is pretty accurate. The injuries set him back, but I definitely consider him an all-star caliber player when healthy. So, Wiff, we still disagree a little bit, but not as much as we initially thought.

[D5150]

if i could just clarify my point:

disapointment is a function of expectation.

if you expect a guy to perform like a "superstar" night in night out just because he is paid like one, you are likely to be disapointed. there are many players in the league that are paid like superstars but are not. there are also players who perform like superstars but are not paid like superstars. salary is irrelevent (well, not to the people writing the checks, but you get my point), some guys cash in on ONE good season, some guys strike while the iron is hot, and some guys are 7 feet tall.

paid like a superstar doesn't equal performs like a superstar in every case.

[BenjaminH]

I concur.

[Joel Embust]

Meanwhile we have a piece of **** team that barely won 20 games.

Enough said.

[BenjaminH]

Sonics-FAN: What do you think it is enough for? Are you trying to say that Seattle fans are not in a good place to criticize a team like Houston, a team that the longest winning streak this season and finished with a .671 record? If so, you are right. But certainly we can say more as long as we keep in mind that Houston was much more successful than us this season.

Wiff I take it you hold two theses:
(1) McGrady was expected to be a superstar this year.
(2) McGrady is not a superstar this year.

Correct me if I am wrong. These are the two you seem to be trying to make cases for, and perhaps not distinguishing them is why you accidentally (?) confused everybody. And perhaps you would like to try to make stronger cases for them at this point.

I find (1) very hard to believe. At the very least, the majority of fans did not expect him to be a superstar. A fringe all-star is a more reasonable expectation, even for Houston fans. I cannot imagine a rational Houston fan honestly believing that McGrady had a shot at the MVP. (But, of course, it would be very hard for you to give evidence to the contrary - evidence that the majority of fans, in fact, expected to be a superstar this year.)

I agree with you on (2), but I maintain that he exceeded expectations. At the very start of the season, he was as good as any player in the league, averaging like 33 a game and the Rockets were winning. Then he was injured for a long time, and we agree that being injury-prone is his Achilles heel. However, when he returned, maintaining that winning streak, he was again one of the best players in the league. Superstar? Probably not, but close. (Commentators, at least, brought him into MVP top ten rankings. In many ways, he probably had a better season than guys like Dirk, Pierce, Ray Allen, Chauncey, Nash, and Boozer.) At least all-star caliber. And in my opinion, played better than most people expected. In fact, being the catalyst for most of the win streak is enough to exceed expectations.

[D5150]

now we will probably hear the argument that the win streak was more a result of the play of guys like scola, landry, alston, etc.

t-mac is what he is. an athletic, allstar caliber, injury prone wing player. if he were not making 18 mil per, he probably wouldn't get criticized as much as he does. but like i said before, just because a guy is paid like a superstar, doesn't mean he is one.

[Joel Embust]

Sonics-FAN: What do you think it is enough for? Are you trying to say that Seattle fans are not in a good place to criticize a team like Houston, a team that the longest winning streak this season and finished with a .671 record? If so, you are right. But certainly we can say more as long as we keep in mind that Houston was much more successful than us this season.

We can, if it's in a respectful way. We shouldn't "make fun" of a .671 team when all our team has done is win 20 games. We should be ashamed and admire the way the Rockets have played without their 20/10 player.

[wiff]

-= original quote snipped =-

We can, if it's in a respectful way. We shouldn't "make fun" of a .671 team when all our team has done is win 20 games. We should be ashamed and admire the way the Rockets have played without their 20/10 player.

Sorry but I don't get the whole "we should be ashamed and admire" part of this.

Yes I get the Sonics are not a very good team. So therefore since they happen to be my favorite team (and not very good) I should not be able to state my opinion about other players or teams in the league?

Am I in here claiming the Sonics are a much better franchise? No.

I'm simply calling out a player in the league who I feel is over rater.

Jesus you guys are as bad as big brother and the thought police.

[BenjaminH]

The problem is that your so-called opinions are not very well thought out. Perhaps you could respond to my earlier remarks so we could get a better idea of what your opinion consists of. Hopefully our dialogue will clarify the issue. (It already helped to clear up what seemed to be an incoherent position, that you thought that McGrady both is and is not a superstar. Your opinion sounds a lot more coherent now.) Of course you have a first amendment right to free speech. I think we were objecting to your remarks being distasteful, which is well within your right to free speech. So, bringing up free speech is kind of irrelevant. (Of course, you will not be arrested for something you post.) But I'm not very concerned with that anyway. You did not say anything offensive. I'm more concerned with your opinion of McGrady and why you think he is overrated.

[wiff]

The problem is that your so-called opinions are not very well thought out. Perhaps you could respond to my earlier remarks so we could get a better idea of what your opinion consists of. Hopefully our dialogue will clarify the issue. (It already helped to clear up what seemed to be an incoherent position, that you thought that McGrady both is and is not a superstar. Your opinion sounds a lot more coherent now.) Of course you have a first amendment right to free speech. I think we were objecting to your remarks being distasteful, which is well within your right to free speech. So, bringing up free speech is kind of irrelevant. (Of course, you will not be arrested for something you post.) But I'm not very concerned with that anyway. You did not say anything offensive. I'm more concerned with your opinion of McGrady and why you think he is overrated.

You know what I find interesting Benji is that out of all the posters in here you are the only other member who has a hard time understanding my posts or my opinion, repeatedly.

No one else seems to have a hard time following what I am trying to say. And it's funny that when ever I put you in a corner and ask you to come up with some sort of proof of a statement you made then all of a sudden the,

[D5150]

honestly wiff, sometimes your unreasonable desire to "get your point across" just rings hollow.

please dont start with the whole first amendment/free speech argument.

and that picture (you know which one i am talking about) is in poor taste. AND it has no business being posted on a forum dedicated to the sonics and the nba. damnit man, you have got to know when to let up.

when will you realize what "going to far" means.

posting that picture was bullsh*t.

mods, please lock.

[Sweezo]

I open this thread and find neo-nazis staring back at me? Someone in here has some growing up to do...