Westbrook's 08/09 Stats

[dre_1614]

One thing I noticed is he has a deadly pull up jumper. Its unguardable, he just needs to learn to keep balanced with it because he gets great elevation.

[BBen]

Yes, his jumper will be very nice when he cleans it up a little. He just needs to get more touches I think. Collison, Shipp, Westbrook and Love all averaged 10 attempts per game so they shared the rock a lot. When you realize that Most of Westbrook's shots came from just scrappy play (defense, rebounds), getting himself open (running through screens or finding the open spot) or breaking down his man off the dribble (he has a wicked hesitation step) his jumper loses relevance. It's probably over-analyzed since it wasn't that much a part of his game and when he starts to shoot it more it won't be so much of a glaring weakness.

[big L]

From what I've seen, he doesn't compare well to Rondo either. They have the same body-type and both came out of college as defensive specialists, so that's where most of the comparison comes from.

The main reason why I'm high on our man Westbrook is for the same reason someone above mentioned: "good things happen when the balls in his hands." You could extend that to say "when he's on the court." He was very effective in the UCLA offense, with or without the ball, but he had a special knack for knowing when to make that extra pass, or even pull back and reset the offense. He will be great with Durant and Green in that sense.

I do think it will take him the regular adjustment period that any pg goes through, and I also think he will have to adjust to a more freewheeling NBA style of play. That's why I say two years. I picture him as a faster version of Brent Barry, minus the outside shot.

[AbdicatedReign]

You start by saying you watched him play and then end by demonstrating you know nothing about him as a player. Catch and shoot? Huh? Doesn't know how to create? What are you talking about man? I can't argue with you because your assertions are just wrong. Maybe you should watch some of those games over.

Did you not say he spent most of his time off the ball, coming off screens, etc? In the games I watched (which were a lot since UCLA is on all the time up here), a ton of his better looking shot attempts were off kick outs/rotation (i.e. catch & shoot), and he clearly had a higher percentage when he was able to get his feet set, anticipate the pass, etc.

And, no, I didn't see a player who could consistently create his own shot at the NBA level. He did OK at UCLA, but his handle definitely slowed his moves down, and he looked rather mechanical on the more advanced dribble moves, often still creating enough separation to finish due to his length/athleticism, but that won't cut it in the NBA.

Feel free to dismiss me as wrong, but all these things will prove themselves once the season starts.

[richboy]

Westbrook is easily the lowest ceiling top 4 pick I've ever seen. When your not even more talented than Rondo what can you say.

The stat guys hit Rondo dead on. Pretty much called him the steal of the draft that season. Rondo ability off the dribble, rebounding, and passing put him ahead of Westbrook by a good amount. That said I couldn't imagine taking Rondo top 4 knowing what I even know now. Imagine we would have laughed if Boston has offered Rondo for the number 4 pick before the draft. Now I would probably jump at that deal.

I've not compared Westbrook a lot to Rondo. Rondo is a pure PG. Rondo had some of the best rebounding and steal numbers for a PG coming into the league since Jkidd. The guy that Westbrook reminds me off at the college level was Keyon Dooling. I think he has more passing capability than Dooling but not close to Rondo. The way they play the game and athleticism to me is extremely comparable. Dooling is a combo guard that is more SG in terms of his skill set. Westbrook is more a little Pg in his skill set.

[dre_1614]

Westbrook is easily the lowest ceiling top 4 pick I've ever seen. When your not even more talented than Rondo what can you say.

The stat guys hit Rondo dead on. Pretty much called him the steal of the draft that season. Rondo ability off the dribble, rebounding, and passing put him ahead of Westbrook by a good amount. That said I couldn't imagine taking Rondo top 4 knowing what I even know now. Imagine we would have laughed if Boston has offered Rondo for the number 4 pick before the draft. Now I would probably jump at that deal.

I've not compared Westbrook a lot to Rondo. Rondo is a pure PG. Rondo had some of the best rebounding and steal numbers for a PG coming into the league since Jkidd. The guy that Westbrook reminds me off at the college level was Keyon Dooling. I think he has more passing capability than Dooling but not close to Rondo. The way they play the game and athleticism to me is extremely comparable. Dooling is a combo guard that is more SG in terms of his skill set. Westbrook is more a little Pg in his skill set.

Get over yourself

[dre_1614]

You start by saying you watched him play and then end by demonstrating you know nothing about him as a player. Catch and shoot? Huh? Doesn't know how to create? What are you talking about man? I can't argue with you because your assertions are just wrong. Maybe you should watch some of those games over.

Did you not say he spent most of his time off the ball, coming off screens, etc? In the games I watched (which were a lot since UCLA is on all the time up here), a ton of his better looking shot attempts were off kick outs/rotation (i.e. catch & shoot), and he clearly had a higher percentage when he was able to get his feet set, anticipate the pass, etc.

And, no, I didn't see a player who could consistently create his own shot at the NBA level. He did OK at UCLA, but his handle definitely slowed his moves down, and he looked rather mechanical on the more advanced dribble moves, often still creating enough separation to finish due to his length/athleticism, but that won't cut it in the NBA.

Feel free to dismiss me as wrong, but all these things will prove themselves once the season starts.

He was a very good creator at UCLA. How often was his man able to stay in front of him, or contest his shot off the dribble? hardly ever. Not to mention IMO he is the best perimeter defender in the whole draft, that makes up for some of the lack of offense we could have got elsewhere.

[wiff]

Westbrooks stats
8pts 4dimes 3rebs 1.5stls .5blks

And I'll even go further
Jeff Green
16pts 7rebs 3dimes 1stl .5blks

Durant
26pts 4rebs 4dimes 1.5stl 1blk with 45%FG

Petro
10pts 8reb 1dimes 1stl 1blk

[BBen]

Abdicated Reign, I was wondering where you were getting your weird arguments because it sounded like you hadn't watched the kid. So I did some thinking and had a flash of insight so I checked Draft Express. It looks like you quoted a lot of your arguments directly from their page.

Abdicated Reign said:
They also both have freakishly long arms and large hands

Why would you mention something weird like big hands? I never noticed that from watching him... maybe it's because:

Draft Express said:
Physically, Westbrook is especially impressive, despite his tweener status. He has solid size at 6-3, an excellent wingspan, and huge hands

Another weird argument you used was that Westbrook is a catch and shoot style player. I'd never use that kind of terminology to describe his game since he attacks the basket so much. Again, striking similarities to this argument and draftexpress.

Abdicated Reign said:
He has zero ability to create shots, for himself or anyone else, is strictly a catch-and-shoot guy

Draft Express said:
As far as his jump-shot is concerned, Westbrook is mostly a catch and shoot player...

Also you almost directly quote from their weaknesses which are as follows:

Weaknesses:

• Not a true point guard
• Undersized for SG position
• Struggles in half-court
• Average ball-handler
• Average shooter
• Ability to create own shot
• Mid-range game
• A starter at PG or SG?
• Needs time to develop

I won't go on... and I'm not pointing this out to humiliate you. I just want to point out the fact that if you're basing your information on draft express you have to realize that the write-up was made BEFORE the tournament on March 5th. It's out-dated.

[AbdicatedReign]

Abdicated Reign, I was wondering where you were getting your weird arguments because it sounded like you hadn't watched the kid. So I did some thinking and had a flash of insight so I checked Draft Express. It looks like you quoted a lot of your arguments directly from their page.

*sigh*

Really? Am I new around here, do people not know me?

Why would you mention something weird like big hands? I never noticed that from watching him... maybe it's because:

You asked me for similarities between Rondo and Westbrook, one of them is limb similarity (even though they differ in height). I remembered reading a feature in SI about why Rondo struggles with his jumper, and it mentioned his absurdly large hands causing problems with getting a consistent release. I noticed the same with Westbrook, especially on his drives/dunks. A player that small has to have very large hands to be able to palm the ball and extend like Westbrook does. It's common sense really for anyone who has played a lot of basketball.

Another weird argument you used was that Westbrook is a catch and shoot style player. I'd never use that kind of terminology to describe his game since he attacks the basket so much. Again, striking similarities to this argument and draftexpress.

It was an evident thing in watching his game. A guy is either better off the dribble, or better off the catch, Westbrook is the latter. Again, not exactly rocket surgery.

Also you almost directly quote from their weaknesses which are as follows:

Again, fairly obvious. He has glaring weaknesses that clearly Draftexpress and anyone else with two eyes can pick out.

I just want to point out the fact that if you're basing your information on draft express you have to realize that the write-up was made BEFORE the tournament on March 5th. It's out-dated.

Well, thanks for the tip. I learned how to formulate my own opinions a long time ago. Plus, you missed a key element. If I was copying my information from Draftexpress, wouldn't I have compared him to Barbosa and Shannon Brown instead of Rondo?

Anyway, all you've done is say I'm off base and my arguments are "weird" without ever addressing them. It's fine however, continue with your ad hominem arguments.

[dre_1614]

Abdicated Reign, I was wondering where you were getting your weird arguments because it sounded like you hadn't watched the kid. So I did some thinking and had a flash of insight so I checked Draft Express. It looks like you quoted a lot of your arguments directly from their page.

*sigh*

Really? Am I new around here, do people not know me?

Why would you mention something weird like big hands? I never noticed that from watching him... maybe it's because:

You asked me for similarities between Rondo and Westbrook, one of them is limb similarity (even though they differ in height). I remembered reading a feature in SI about why Rondo struggles with his jumper, and it mentioned his absurdly large hands causing problems with getting a consistent release. I noticed the same with Westbrook, especially on his drives/dunks. A player that small has to have very large hands to be able to palm the ball and extend like Westbrook does. It's common sense really for anyone who has played a lot of basketball.

Another weird argument you used was that Westbrook is a catch and shoot style player. I'd never use that kind of terminology to describe his game since he attacks the basket so much. Again, striking similarities to this argument and draftexpress.

It was an evident thing in watching his game. A guy is either better off the dribble, or better off the catch, Westbrook is the latter. Again, not exactly rocket surgery.

Also you almost directly quote from their weaknesses which are as follows:

Again, fairly obvious. He has glaring weaknesses that clearly Draftexpress and anyone else with two eyes can pick out.

I just want to point out the fact that if you're basing your information on draft express you have to realize that the write-up was made BEFORE the tournament on March 5th. It's out-dated.

Well, thanks for the tip. I learned how to formulate my own opinions a long time ago. Plus, you missed a key element. If I was copying my information from Draftexpress, wouldn't I have compared him to Barbosa and Shannon Brown instead of Rondo?

Anyway, all you've done is say I'm off base and my arguments are "weird" without ever addressing them. It's fine however, continue with your ad hominem arguments.

I have to agree with BBen here, its obvious watching Westbrook that his strong suit on offense is slashing to the hoop. He gets more layups than almost any other guard in college. I have all of his games from the NCAA tournament. I can show you all his shots if you want?

[dre_1614]

Ill give you a sample, Ill list every single one of his shots in the NCAA tourney, and if you arent satisfied, or dont think it proves anything Ill actually go through each game and show you all of his shots.

Rd 1: Miss Valley St: No play-by-play

Rd 2: Texas A&M:
missed Three Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Three Point Jumper
missed Three Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup

Rd 3: W Kentucky:
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Dunk Shot
missed Two Point Jumper
made Three Point Jumper
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Three Point Jumper

Rd 4: Xavier:
made Two Point Dunk Shot
made Two Point Layup
missed Three Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
made Three Point Jumper
made Two Point Layup
missed Three Point Jumper

Rd 5: Memphis:
made Two Point Jumper
made Three Point Jumper
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Jumper
missed Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
missed Three Point Jumper
made Two Point Layup
missed Two Point Layup
made Three Point Jumper

Jump shots 5-20 shooting
Layups/Dunks 17-33 shooting

Now of course some of those were in transition, and some of those jump shots were stop and pop. But none of those stats I showed you suggest he is a better catch and shoot player compared to off the dribble. I could go on a UCLA bruins forums and post a poll and ask what is Russell better at catch and shoot, or off the dribble? I guarantee you it will be in BBen's favor.

[AbdicatedReign]

I'm sorry, I should have clarified.

I was talking about his shooting form when I mention the now infamous term "catch and shoot", meaning he was a better jumpshooter off the catch than off the dribble. I wasn't saying that was his offensive strong suit, nor was I making a comparison between his shooting ability and his driving ability, those were separate points.

[dre_1614]

I'm sorry, I should have clarified.

I was talking about his shooting form when I mention the now infamous term "catch and shoot", meaning he was a better jumpshooter off the catch than off the dribble. I wasn't saying that was his offensive strong suit, nor was I making a comparison between his shooting ability and his driving ability, those were separate points.

That is true, what I thought you meant was he was better at catching and shooting than going to the hoop which he is very good at.

He needs to work on his balance when he pulls up off the dribble no question.

[BBen]

Well, thanks for the tip. I learned how to formulate my own opinions a long time ago. Plus, you missed a key element. If I was copying my information from Draftexpress, wouldn't I have compared him to Barbosa and Shannon Brown instead of Rondo?

If you weren't copying would you know who they compare him to? Come on man, give it a rest. I don't care if you use draftexpress to evaluate players, just don't be surprised when you get caught in an argument and don't have any ammo since you didn't watch the guy.

EDIT: I'm also kinda confused that you just read the negatives and ignored the nice stuff they wrote about him. I guess you're just a pessimist who decided you didn't like him based on part of the stuff a pundit wrote in an old article.

[AbdicatedReign]

If you weren't copying would you know who they compare him to? Come on man, give it a rest. I don't care if you use draftexpress to evaluate players, just don't be surprised when you get caught in an argument and don't have any ammo since you didn't watch the guy.

Well, naturally, if someone accuses me of using a site's information as my own, I'm going to go and read the article. Quite dense, you are.

And I've yet to find myself in an argument, because you've presented no evidence/opinions of any sort. You continue to reach for this baseless claim that I regurgitated my opinion, and have yet to actually say anything of use/substance.

EDIT: I'm also kinda confused that you just read the negatives and ignored the nice stuff they wrote about him. I guess you're just a pessimist who decided you didn't like him based on part of the stuff a pundit wrote in an old article.

*Perhaps I "ignored the nice stuff" because I was speaking for myself? Nah, crazy talk, right? *sigh* Please, think what you want. I've no interest in proving my "innocence" based on your half-baked theory.

If you want to enter into a discussion, let me know. Instead you just repeatedly demonstrate that you have nothing interesting to offer.

[richboy]

Westbrook is easily the lowest ceiling top 4 pick I've ever seen. When your not even more talented than Rondo what can you say.

The stat guys hit Rondo dead on. Pretty much called him the steal of the draft that season. Rondo ability off the dribble, rebounding, and passing put him ahead of Westbrook by a good amount. That said I couldn't imagine taking Rondo top 4 knowing what I even know now. Imagine we would have laughed if Boston has offered Rondo for the number 4 pick before the draft. Now I would probably jump at that deal.

I've not compared Westbrook a lot to Rondo. Rondo is a pure PG. Rondo had some of the best rebounding and steal numbers for a PG coming into the league since Jkidd. The guy that Westbrook reminds me off at the college level was Keyon Dooling. I think he has more passing capability than Dooling but not close to Rondo. The way they play the game and athleticism to me is extremely comparable. Dooling is a combo guard that is more SG in terms of his skill set. Westbrook is more a little Pg in his skill set.

Get over yourself

Don't be mad because I said the truth.

[dre_1614]

Westbrook is easily the lowest ceiling top 4 pick I've ever seen. When your not even more talented than Rondo what can you say.

The stat guys hit Rondo dead on. Pretty much called him the steal of the draft that season. Rondo ability off the dribble, rebounding, and passing put him ahead of Westbrook by a good amount. That said I couldn't imagine taking Rondo top 4 knowing what I even know now. Imagine we would have laughed if Boston has offered Rondo for the number 4 pick before the draft. Now I would probably jump at that deal.

I've not compared Westbrook a lot to Rondo. Rondo is a pure PG. Rondo had some of the best rebounding and steal numbers for a PG coming into the league since Jkidd. The guy that Westbrook reminds me off at the college level was Keyon Dooling. I think he has more passing capability than Dooling but not close to Rondo. The way they play the game and athleticism to me is extremely comparable. Dooling is a combo guard that is more SG in terms of his skill set. Westbrook is more a little Pg in his skill set.

Get over yourself

Don't be mad because I said the truth.

are you a psychic?
Fact is nobody knows what type of player he is going to be in the NBA, just like every other prospect.