Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[brownbobcat]

Of course the average success rate matters. If you're going to make a comparative comment like "atrocious". Atrocious is a relative term that relies a comparison. That comparison has to have a field of values. The field of values would have an average.

That average then dictates if you're atrocious or not.

Expectations matter. Be honest, would you consider the 2022-23 season closer to "atrocious" or "acceptable"?
If Barnes had turned out to be exactly like the average 4th pick, would you be satisfied with that?

It all matters, I'm not debating that.

Expectations matters.
Average hit rate matters.

If the average hit rate on 2nd rounders for >1 WAR is like 1% and you're at %.8. It's not atrocious, even if you have high expectations.

I'm not saying they've been atrocious or not atrocious. But you need to have some concept of the constraints that are being referred to and understand how other teams have succeeded or not within those constrains to have an idea of what is or is not atrocious.

I think you reasonably understand we're not talking about some completely objective standard of performance.
When we call a GM crap, we don't use the "average expected value" scale.
When we complain about a disappointing treadmill team, the bar isn't 41 wins.
When we disparage a 4th pick for being a "bust", the benchmark isn't Cody Zeller.

So yes, it's been an atrocious 6-7 years in terms of finding diamonds in the rough. We'll probably never again see a run like picking up Norm/Delon/FVV/Siakam/OG in 3 successive years, luck obviously plays a role. But you need to outperform to win in the NBA and that's the standard.

[Duffman100]

Expectations matter. Be honest, would you consider the 2022-23 season closer to "atrocious" or "acceptable"?
If Barnes had turned out to be exactly like the average 4th pick, would you be satisfied with that?

It all matters, I'm not debating that.

Expectations matters.
Average hit rate matters.

If the average hit rate on 2nd rounders for >1 WAR is like 1% and you're at %.8. It's not atrocious, even if you have high expectations.

I'm not saying they've been atrocious or not atrocious. But you need to have some concept of the constraints that are being referred to and understand how other teams have succeeded or not within those constrains to have an idea of what is or is not atrocious.

I think you reasonably understand we're not talking about some completely objective standard of performance.

I'm not looking for some perfected level of objectivity where every possible analysis has been done.

But some level of research that shows outside of the obvious Miami and Boston, 20-25 other teams in the last 6-7 years have acquired X guys that were diamonds in the rough that were either 2nd rounders or picked up off the FA scrap heap.

Because I remember asking someone not to do this long ago and they really couldn't come up with too many names. Most of the names were mid first rounders.

[ArthurVandelay]

I think the point is less about FVV openly admitting that stuff, and more that if he was able to "feel it and see it", then it was pretty obvious what the FO was planning on doing, and that they could have handled it better by making moves sooner. It's like what happened with Siakam, he got jerked around a whole bunch and then we shipped him out with 2 months left on a contract, they knew what they were doing and that was the result.

Maybe they were waiting to see if Scottie was "it", which is a fair approach, but that ROTY year should've been enough to get the idea. So maybe they fumbled the FVV situation and they get a bit of a pass based on the above, but not the Siakam one. They should have learned from their mistakes.

Or it could have been the FO knew the team had to make changes and didn’t want to spend 7+ year max money on Siakam.

He was in trade talks for years but Siakam didn’t have the offers or trade value the FO, and many fans like me, felt was appropriate or necessary to pull the trigger.

In the end they doubled down with the Poeltl trade (a mistake) rather than take what they felt were lowball offers before they had to. This year was when they had to accept reality and take the perceived lowball (ie market) offer.

You could be right, the end result was sadly the same. We should've moved away sooner, and it seems like the FO already knew that, but they tried to get the best deal they could and it burned them.

The Jak trade is just still so very baffling with all this stuff becoming more obvious by the day. And if the ultimate goal was to re-sign FVV, get Jak, and sign Siakam to a max, man, that REALLY calls their judgment into question.

Both Bobby and Masai have talked about Poeltl being obtained for “good value.”

It will be interesting, in time, to see if they mean they thought the pick conveyed would be 15+ or if the return on a subsequent Poeltl trade yields better returns in what they spent to get him.

I’m rooting for the latter but have a feeling they made a poor calculation on where the team would be this year and it’s the former.

[WaltFrazier]

Finding players in the margins, which we have been atrocious at for years, is where the real moves will be made.

lol **** off with this.

The Raptors up until 24 months ago were the kings of “finding players in the margins”.

We miss on Flynn, don’t have a first for a year, and end up with an unfortunate Koloko situations and suddenly we’re been “atrocious for years”

Impossible to take you with stuff like this seriously

The "margins" are not just non-lottery picks, but also include undrafted players, minimum UFAs and the like. Apart from Barnes & Gradey (who were drafted in the lottery), name a single rotation player which fits that description since OG was drafted in 2017. Boucher? That's it.

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

[YogurtProducer]

lol **** off with this.

The Raptors up until 24 months ago were the kings of “finding players in the margins”.

We miss on Flynn, don’t have a first for a year, and end up with an unfortunate Koloko situations and suddenly we’re been “atrocious for years”

Impossible to take you with stuff like this seriously

The "margins" are not just non-lottery picks, but also include undrafted players, minimum UFAs and the like. Apart from Barnes & Gradey (who were drafted in the lottery), name a single rotation player which fits that description since OG was drafted in 2017. Boucher? That's it.

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

[Mikistan]

The "margins" are not just non-lottery picks, but also include undrafted players, minimum UFAs and the like. Apart from Barnes & Gradey (who were drafted in the lottery), name a single rotation player which fits that description since OG was drafted in 2017. Boucher? That's it.

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

Looks like Nicky overplay the starters Nurse was a constant for those names

[Tripod]

The "margins" are not just non-lottery picks, but also include undrafted players, minimum UFAs and the like. Apart from Barnes & Gradey (who were drafted in the lottery), name a single rotation player which fits that description since OG was drafted in 2017. Boucher? That's it.

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

[YogurtProducer]

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

[Tripod]

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

Don't worry, we will get the ROTY from our top 6 pick.

[Vampirate]

Welcome to the reality of the NBA.

Outside Baynes and Thad (but let’s be honest, his contract was a purposeful overpayment) all of this guys were acquired for literally nothing and were cut with no issues. That’s what 99.9% of minimum contract guys are.

Again, next to no teams are actually constantly finding value in the UDFA or min contract department. Most teams, including us pre-championship, found almost all our value in the later first early 2nd. We’ve just barely had picks since the ship in those areas to find them.

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

[YogurtProducer]

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

Same could have been said about Lowry/Demar from 2014 to 2018.

The fact that Siakam, OG, FVV (and soon barnes) will all be max players suggests that maybe there was a lot of talent there.

[HangTime]

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

I think it had to do with
-The Midseason covid shut down, 2020

-Tampa season 2020-2021

-No fans at home for long stretches, 2021-2022

-Scottie getting hurt early in 2022-2023, so he really doesn't have a chance to "take a big leap", hanging near a playoff spot, at the deadline didn't help

Easy for the die hard fans to see the needed changes, but they may not have wanted the backlash from the likely majority of fans.

It's just terrible overall timing of events.

[Duffman100]

Yeah this isn't hard to understand.

The last 5 years we have only had 3 1st rd picks...and added Barnes and Gradey. We missed on Flynn. We had 5 2nd rounders...but 4 were picks 59, 59, 46 and 47. Only Koloko was an early 2nd at 23rd and he looked on track to an NBA career before falling ill.

It was the fallout of going for and winning a Championship AND trying to stay competitive afterwards.

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

I don’t think any NBA GM would have blown it up after 48-34 and having the rookie of the year looking like a future Giannis.

The 2022-23 season was the big mistake. Trading for Poeltl and not pivoting there.

[Vampirate]

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

Same could have been said about Lowry/Demar from 2014 to 2018.

The fact that Siakam, OG, FVV (and soon barnes) will all be max players suggests that maybe there was a lot of talent there.

You have rose tinted glasses on.

Lowry and Demar's prime coincided with one another and both were all star caliber players for a number of years at the same time.

FVV as your 2nd or 3rd best player was never going to lead anywhere.

The roster was not only flawed, but had limited upside due to the best player's talent and age.

Siakam and FVV are basically on a different timeline than Barnes.

FVV is massively overpaid, Siakam about to be so (compared to his production as he ages).

There was just no future/upside with that bunch as the core, thus we wasted 2-3 years.

[Vampirate]

Exactly.

And we have 5 incoming 1sts (plus pick 31) coming into our system in the next 3 years (well, 4 1sts accounting for if and when we convey to SA). But those guys are not going to be NBA ready to be real contributors for at least a season, probably two, and maybe even three years. Like realistically we wont see the fruits of this draft until 2027.

I am sure that wont stop the usuals from saying Masai is washed in 12 months when we dont draft the ROTY from #19.

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

I don’t think any NBA GM would have blown it up after 48-34 and having the rookie of the year looking like a future Giannis.

The 2022-23 season was the big mistake. Trading for Poeltl and not pivoting there.

The real issue is basically the age gap between our best player (Siakam) and Barnes. Their primes would have never matched and Siakam would be on the wrong side of 30 on a very hard to move max contract.

FVV basically needs to be the 5th option for him to have any real value to a contender.

In all of this OG is the one i'd obviously rather keep but as we also saw had the most value.

The core just had very little upside outside Barnes.

[Duffman100]

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

I don’t think any NBA GM would have blown it up after 48-34 and having the rookie of the year looking like a future Giannis.

The 2022-23 season was the big mistake. Trading for Poeltl and not pivoting there.

The real issue is basically the age gap between our best player (Siakam) and Barnes. Their primes would have never matched and Siakam would be on the wrong side of 30 on a very hard to move max contract.

FVV basically needs to be the 5th option for him to have any real value to a contender.

In all of this OG is the one i'd obviously rather keep but as we also saw had the most value.

The core just had very little upside outside Barnes.

Sure but it doesn’t mean it had to be the final form of the core. You sign people to extensions and then trade them later ala Derozan.

[CazOnReal]

There's one other failure beyond the Young/Poeltl trades: The 2021 offseason was essentially the last time they had any sort of cap space - even their current cap space projection is based on them waiving Brown/waiving their Bird Rights to Trent - due to Gary's low cap hold. The fact they were trying to still compete without picking up one of the several centers/PFs who can play the 5 (Markkanen, Hartenstein, even Holmes who no one could have predicted would fall to injuries) and were relatively affordable was a bad call when this team didn't have any center prospect nor any big man until they made the trade for Precious, and it's debatable whether Precious should have been developed as a big man or as a wing.

[YogurtProducer]

The criticism with Masai is not pivoting to a real rebuild years sooner.

Essentially we just went through 2-3 seasons of bridge years with the Siakam, OG, FVV core. That's on Masai for not seeing the forest from the trees on the limited upside of that group.

Same could have been said about Lowry/Demar from 2014 to 2018.

The fact that Siakam, OG, FVV (and soon barnes) will all be max players suggests that maybe there was a lot of talent there.

You have rose tinted glasses on.

Lowry and Demar's prime coincided with one another and both were all star caliber players for a number of years at the same time.

FVV as your 2nd or 3rd best player was never going to lead anywhere.

The roster was not only flawed, but had limited upside due to the best player's talent and age.

Siakam and FVV are basically on a different timeline than Barnes.

FVV is massively overpaid, Siakam about to be so (compared to his production as he ages).

There was just no future/upside with that bunch as the core, thus we wasted 2-3 years.

Lowry was 4 years older than Demar, who was 3 years older than JV.

Pascal/FVV were 3 years older than Anunoby, who was 4 years older than Barnes.

In no way did Lowry and Demar primes really coincide at all.

There was a legit reason why keeping the team together as long as he did made sense. Little to no organizations just throw away that much talent without trying to make it work. Hell - I would make a pretty strong argument that the talent there was better than the sum of its parts (just not enough shooting really). But as you can see with FVV in HOU, Siakam in IND, OG in NYK, and Barnes/GTJ/Poeltl here in TOR, there was a lot of talent to work with.

It did not work out and Poellt was probably a desperate move to see what it looked like with a C, but goddamn a lot of you downplayh that roster to much.

[Vampirate]

I don’t think any NBA GM would have blown it up after 48-34 and having the rookie of the year looking like a future Giannis.

The 2022-23 season was the big mistake. Trading for Poeltl and not pivoting there.

The real issue is basically the age gap between our best player (Siakam) and Barnes. Their primes would have never matched and Siakam would be on the wrong side of 30 on a very hard to move max contract.

FVV basically needs to be the 5th option for him to have any real value to a contender.

In all of this OG is the one i'd obviously rather keep but as we also saw had the most value.

The core just had very little upside outside Barnes.

Sure but it doesn’t mean it had to be the final form of the core. You sign people to extensions and then trade them later ala Derozan.

While true, OG, Siakam, FVV would have more value on their deals then, then if we had resigned them and traded them later due to the dollar amount and being younger.

OG in the next contract won't be as valuable as he is now, still a heck of a player though.

As for Derozan, that trade will probably never happen for a long time.

We had a 2nd all star at the time (and we were rightfully being mocked before it).

In any case let's just hope we draft a 2nd real star in the next few years. Time will tell.

We are pretty much in year one of actually building around Barnes.

[Scase]

lol **** off with this.

The Raptors up until 24 months ago were the kings of “finding players in the margins”.

We miss on Flynn, don’t have a first for a year, and end up with an unfortunate Koloko situations and suddenly we’re been “atrocious for years”

Impossible to take you with stuff like this seriously

The "margins" are not just non-lottery picks, but also include undrafted players, minimum UFAs and the like. Apart from Barnes & Gradey (who were drafted in the lottery), name a single rotation player which fits that description since OG was drafted in 2017. Boucher? That's it.

24 months? More like 5 years. There's a long list of guys added one way or another since 2019 and pretty much no successes. Len, Baynes, RHJ, Stanley Johnson, Brissett, Freddy Gillespie, Birch, Yuta, Armani Brooks, Thad, Banton, Barton, Champagnie, Joe Wieskamp, Ron Harper jr, Juancho, on and on. I'm forgetting some, and not listing end of this year guys. Hard to pick out any successes in 5 years.

It's easier to just ignore things you don't like and make things up.