NBA Over/Under Wins 24/25 (Raps 32.5)

[WuTang_CMB]

Oops did you forget to switch accounts?

I'm indifferent to Jak. He's not going to be the centre who wins with this group long term. Masai won't deal him now because he saw the mess we were in while he was out last year. Olynyk as a starting 5 is an absolute disaster because of his lack of defense and rim protection. He at least wants to try to get better this year so no harm into keeping him until we see where we are at the deadline. Raps will still be under .500 team even with him to start. Come the deadline and the season is lost, we can deal him and tank the rest of the season.

That's where I disagree...there absolutely is harm in keeping him until the deadline.

It's that same thinking that convinced some on this board that there was no sense in even trying to tank for Victor even though we got as low as 6th past midway through the season...why?!? Because those who didn't want to trade Pascal & OG when they should have (not surprisingly much of the same posters -- who also flip flop on those opinions later), are now saying don't trade Poeltl, to hold on to them until the FO gets a package they want BECAUSE they start saying it's "pointless" to tank now because the bottom teams are out of striking distance by then (which is nearly 3/4 into the season, you guys do remember that it's that far into the season right?!).

Eliminate that excuse right off the bat!

We get rid of Yak, we can absolutely be within the top 5-6 of this draft. Without Yak, we essentially have next to no defence other than Scottie and I already know that will be the Yak supporters next lame duck point. "It will hurt Scottie's production"....look if Scottie is THAT guy...it won't matter and it will be obvious. There aren't any MVP level players who didn't become that because they didn't have a "Jakob Poeltl" lol like give me a break. If Scottie can't make a jump, he's not that guy and all the more reason why we'd need to tank to get THAT guy...and at the top end of this draft we could actually end up with a player even better than Scottie himself.

I wish I could find that damn article that showed our record without Yak & Scottie...and then without them individually and our record was actually WORSE when we were missing Yak (imo that's again because we'd have no defence). But regardless of whether with Scottie or not, the team's record is GARBAGE without him but good news is Yak isn't some irreplaceable C. There's Claxton's, Hartenstein's, Robinson's, RWIIIs, Kesslers etc, all really good solid Cs like Yak that will float around that we can grab at a later date. What we can't just grab at a later date is a STAR to pair with Scottie, that opportunity is RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW and right under the team's nose - all they have to do is have the guts to follow through. They've already prepared the fans by calling it a rebuild, now let's not just talk about it, let's actually do it and we'll WAAAAAY better off in the future for it.

They clearly don't want to do that though. They are going to put their best foot forward and at least try to start and then see where they are at the deadline. If you asked Masai if he rather be in the playoffs next year or bottom 5, he's taking playoffs 100/100. I'm in the camp we still need top end talent next draft so I know where you are coming from, I'm just coming at this based on how Masai is operating. They won't pull the plug before the season starts so we gotta wait and see what this team looks like, at least for the first 30 games.

[Tripod]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

[ArthurVandelay]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

lol

[CazOnReal]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

People forget how competitive that post-Melo team was with all the guys they got back for him.

The one issue with applying that to the Raptors is they only got one rotation-level player in Bruce Brown and it's TBD on how Ja'Kobe or whoever that 2026 becomes - be it via trade or draft - will perform as a Raptor.

That said, yeah the Raptors won't open the season attempting to tank but if things go awry like they did in 2013 (They explicitly traded Gay to rev up a tank for Wiggins) then going, say, 1-14 might change things.

[Tripod]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

People forget how competitive that post-Melo team was with all the guys they got back for him.

The one issue with applying that to the Raptors is they only got one rotation-level player in Bruce Brown and it's TBD on how Ja'Kobe or whoever that 2026 becomes - be it via trade or draft - will perform as a Raptor.

That said, yeah the Raptors won't open the season attempting to tank but if things go awry like they did in 2013 (They explicitly traded Gay to rev up a tank for Wiggins) then going, say, 1-14 might change things.

Musai believes he can re-create the last building of the Raps to a Champ level team. Time will tell if he can.

[Scase]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

People forget how competitive that post-Melo team was with all the guys they got back for him.

The one issue with applying that to the Raptors is they only got one rotation-level player in Bruce Brown and it's TBD on how Ja'Kobe or whoever that 2026 becomes - be it via trade or draft - will perform as a Raptor.

That said, yeah the Raptors won't open the season attempting to tank but if things go awry like they did in 2013 (They explicitly traded Gay to rev up a tank for Wiggins) then going, say, 1-14 might change things.

Except that doesnt matter, because despite seeing how garbage of a season last year was, we still waited until 2 major injuries occurred to tank, which was about 40 games too late and resulted in the 8th pick. Whether or not we kept it wasn't much the issue, but rather the fact that if you pretend to be playing the big boy game and trying to win with a trash team, you don't get to flip the switch with little time left in the season and expect to do anything but live in no mans land.

So unless this team comes out of the gate with like a .300 winning record by the holiday break, they will tank too late. And if they DO come out that bad, well then you don't need to tank, cause you just suck.

We didn't get even remotely ok value for Siakam, we got decent, albeit odd value for OG, and then we just keep pissing away chances to facilitate trades for cash strapped teams by making poor choices like picking up options to players that no one wants. It seems as though our FO has learned nothing from their overvaluing of weak assets.

One trade to ship out Jalen hasn't changed anything.

[Los_29]

derrick white was also on those spurs teams. just curious but would you make the same statement about him?

It is weird how that team was so bad. Demar, White, Dejounte and Poeltl should be a solid team.

It’s a desire to be mid instead of daring to be good or even great. Not trading Brown at the deadline makes no sense just like holding on to Jak at this point makes no sense. We’ve already chosen to rebuild, now is the youth movement. Let’s go!

Trading Brown for nothing wouldn’t have made sense then and doesn’t make sense now.

We had offers of a first round pick for Brown at the deadline which is the high point of Brown’s value. Trading Brown for an expiring at the deadline would have also let us use our capspace to take on contracts and get more assets from teams during free agency. It’s obvious with the salary restrictions having capspace is more valuable than an expiring role player on a big contract. Again this is why you need to pick a lane and commit to it early.

Let’s see your sources for that. Everything that I’ve seen suggests the opposite. There were hardly any FRPs moved at the deadline. The market was not good.

[Johnny Bball]

Hawks, Toronto, Chicago, Charlotte, Detroit, Washington, and Brooklyn. Those are the teams on the outside and that is presuming no major season ending injuries to playoff teams.

Two of these teams have to make the play-in. I can tell you this much, its not Washington, Brooklyn, Chicago. Its highly unlikely its Charlotte, Detroit. The Hawks should make it, but they are the Hawks and can implode at any time.

So it is what it is.

30-35 wins is probably going to get you to the last play-in spot this year. Its not going to take long before Toronto is out of any race to the bottom. Maybe Detroit or Charlotte improves so much that they get in. But that doesn't chnage much.

I don't understand why the same people spend the summer with the same bad whiny arugments when its kind of evident already that the Raptors can't get to the bottom without major injuries and bad luck again.

[Johnny Bball]

Some people really need to start to grasp the current CBA with the 2nd apron in effect, and how it has impacted trades for the last two deadlines and this offseason. If you're going to make 20 posts about it, at least get a clue first.

[metafisical]

Hawks, Toronto, Chicago, Charlotte, Detroit, Washington, and Brooklyn. Those are the teams on the outside and that is presuming no major season ending injuries to playoff teams.

Two of these teams have to make the play-in. I can tell you this much, its not Washington, Brooklyn, Chicago. Its highly unlikely its Charlotte, Detroit. The Hawks should make it, but they are the Hawks and can implode at any time.

So it is what it is.

30-35 wins is probably going to get you to the last play-in spot this year. Its not going to take long before Toronto is out of any race to the bottom.

I don't understand why the same people spend the summer with the same bad whiny arugments when its kind of evident already that the Raptors can't get to the bottom without major injuries and bad luck.

Agree. I am totally tWo, but the make up of this team suggests a mediocre play-in record, with our ceiling being a meeting with the Celtics and being swept by them.

Like you said, it's going to take some injuries and unexpected good play from the other garbage teams for us to get any decent lotto luck. Or another team really, really wanting Poeltl.

[Kingsway_fan]

Toronto will be in the mix for a play-in with Atlanta, Charlotte...

We have four quality players ... all starting.
The next tier down we have Dick, Oknyk, Boucher.

The rest are all crap...

[Johnny Bball]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

Agreed. But its not really just that Ujiri that doesn't like to tank. Players don't like to tank. Barnes has already fired a warning shot in that regard.

The problem is that some people here don't have any concept of good or even decent leadership and would just ignore what their team or staff wants, and would just alienate them by tanking and sitting them down. And their response is going to be "because we know better". That arrogant attitude that runs counter to what your players will tolerate has always gone nowhere and goes even less further these days.

And in a city like Toronto, because its not in the US, you know you need to have an excellent culture and not alienate your players and give them ANY other reason for wanting trades or leaving in free agency. Because it doesn't take alot for players to find an excuse to want to leave Toronto. They managed to lose OG and were forced to trade him, through no fault of their own. Fans that have followed this team their entire lives don't seem to understand how little leeway the Raptors have compared to every other team. And even after that they still have to consistently overpay.

Both times they tanked their reasons were health of players, and covid in Tampa. But its never going to be an all out tank from any President/GM in Toronto unless they are starting from complete scratch, which is trading away EVERY player you don't have long term plans for (because they will just want out anyway) And for some reason, people still stan for tanking and expect should happen. Not based in reality at all.

[Appostis]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

Agreed. But its not really just that Ujiri that doesn't like to tank. Players don't like to tank. Barnes has already fired a warning shot in that regard.

The problem is that some people here don't have any concept of good or even decent leadership and would just ignore what their team or staff wants, and would just alienate them by tanking and sitting them down. And their response is going to be "because we know better". That arrogant attitude that runs counter to what your players will tolerate has always gone nowhere and goes even less further these days.

And in a city like Toronto, because its not in the US, you know you need to have an excellent culture and not alienate your players and give them ANY other reason for wanting trades or leaving in free agency. Because it doesn't take alot for players to find an excuse to want to leave Toronto. They managed to lose OG and were forced to trade him, through no fault of their own. Fans that have followed this team their entire lives don't seem to understand how little leeway the Raptors have compared to every other team. And even after that they still have to consistently overpay.

Both times they tanked their reasons were health of players, and covid in Tampa. But its never going to be an all out tank from any President/GM in Toronto unless they are starting from complete scratch, which is trading away EVERY player you don't have long term plans for (because they will just want out anyway) And for some reason, people still stan for tanking and expect should happen. Not based in reality at all.

He was ready to tank with the Gay trade...
Remember.. the attempted Lowry trade as well?

A decade of success does not mean the guy is completely against be tanking.

But he is aware you need to tank correctly or risk being a Detroit/Charlotte.

[Shakril]

But he is aware you need to tank correctly or risk being a Detroit/Charlotte.[/quote]


Sometimes i think you guys dont even know what tanking actually means.

[Appostis]

Sometimes i think you guys dont even know what tanking actually means.

Then please..feel free to explain wtf it means.

[Johnny Bball]

Not sure why people are so confused....Musai doesn't like to tank. He tries to add players, develop them, then consolidate.

We added Brown and signed Olynyk and added Ochai for 1 late pick from PS
We added 2 younger starters for OG
We kept Yak

These are not tanking moves. We will contend for the play in. Accept it.

Agreed. But its not really just that Ujiri that doesn't like to tank. Players don't like to tank. Barnes has already fired a warning shot in that regard.

The problem is that some people here don't have any concept of good or even decent leadership and would just ignore what their team or staff wants, and would just alienate them by tanking and sitting them down. And their response is going to be "because we know better". That arrogant attitude that runs counter to what your players will tolerate has always gone nowhere and goes even less further these days.

And in a city like Toronto, because its not in the US, you know you need to have an excellent culture and not alienate your players and give them ANY other reason for wanting trades or leaving in free agency. Because it doesn't take alot for players to find an excuse to want to leave Toronto. They managed to lose OG and were forced to trade him, through no fault of their own. Fans that have followed this team their entire lives don't seem to understand how little leeway the Raptors have compared to every other team. And even after that they still have to consistently overpay.

Both times they tanked their reasons were health of players, and covid in Tampa. But its never going to be an all out tank from any President/GM in Toronto unless they are starting from complete scratch, which is trading away EVERY player you don't have long term plans for (because they will just want out anyway) And for some reason, people still stan for tanking and expect should happen. Not based in reality at all.

He was ready to tank with the Gay trade...
Remember.. the attempted Lowry trade as well?

A decade of success does not mean the guy is completely against be tanking.

But he is aware you need to tank correctly or risk being a Detroit/Charlotte.

They had DD, Lowry and JV. That team wasn't tanking either with zero bench and getting back 4 guys that could play off the bench. Those 4 just fit better than imagined. Expecially Vasquez with no back-up PG and Patterson for smallball C. Only one lasted more than two years.

The point is Ujiri is not going to total tank for years without one reason. He's not going to Detroit/Sixers tank impatiently or without reason unless one day he looks up and sees nobody worth keeping. That would mean if of Barnes, IQ and Barrett fail spectacularly. And that might be limited to Barnes.

[Appostis]

Agreed. But its not really just that Ujiri that doesn't like to tank. Players don't like to tank. Barnes has already fired a warning shot in that regard.

The problem is that some people here don't have any concept of good or even decent leadership and would just ignore what their team or staff wants, and would just alienate them by tanking and sitting them down. And their response is going to be "because we know better". That arrogant attitude that runs counter to what your players will tolerate has always gone nowhere and goes even less further these days.

And in a city like Toronto, because its not in the US, you know you need to have an excellent culture and not alienate your players and give them ANY other reason for wanting trades or leaving in free agency. Because it doesn't take alot for players to find an excuse to want to leave Toronto. They managed to lose OG and were forced to trade him, through no fault of their own. Fans that have followed this team their entire lives don't seem to understand how little leeway the Raptors have compared to every other team. And even after that they still have to consistently overpay.

Both times they tanked their reasons were health of players, and covid in Tampa. But its never going to be an all out tank from any President/GM in Toronto unless they are starting from complete scratch, which is trading away EVERY player you don't have long term plans for (because they will just want out anyway) And for some reason, people still stan for tanking and expect should happen. Not based in reality at all.

He was ready to tank with the Gay trade...
Remember.. the attempted Lowry trade as well?

A decade of success does not mean the guy is completely against be tanking.

But he is aware you need to tank correctly or risk being a Detroit/Charlotte.

They had DD, Lowry and JV. That team wasn't tanking either with zero bench and getting back 4 guys that could play off the bench. Those 4 just fit better than imagined. Expecially Vasquez with no back-up PG and Patterson for smallball C. Only one lasted more than two years.

The point is Ujiri is not going to total tank for years without one reason. He's not going to Detroit/Sixers tank impatiently or without reason unless one day he looks up and sees nobody worth keeping. That would mean if of Barnes, IQ and Barrett fail spectacularly. And that might be limited to Barnes.

Did you just miss the failed New York Knicks trade?

You honestly don't see that a tear down was happening?

K...

[Rapsalot]

Depends on J P health. If he starts 70 of 82 I would say the number is a good prediction. If J P plays less than 60 it is a definite under.