PG: Another Day, Another Blowout

[Thaddy]

start ochai. gradey is wasted as a minus defender/5th scorer type. doesn't really excel in that role at all. you're looking at a 3+D strong roleplayer there, which he isn't.

walter/gradey is okay off-the-bench.

ideally, we draft a starting caliber 2 in the draft whether that's harper/jak/tre johnson/edgecombe or its flagg/bailey which would move RJ to the two, which would be fine with me as well.

otherwise, the rotation priority is kinda a mess but they're trying to both showcase their vets in kelly/bruce plus prioritise developments for their various rooks when they're not really ready, so it's gonna be looking very rough. and it's clear that winning isn't top of mind. they're using a lot of these games to experiment and get these guys working on various skills in-game.

Why would you start Ochai ahead of JKW? JKW is younger, better shooter, ball handler, and he is just as good on defense.

[PushDaRock]

We've been over this so many times, that 48 win season was fool's gold and it was even obvious at the time. Teams weren't bringing their star players to Toronto because they didn't want them to get trapped in Canada if they caught COVID, the game Golden State played in Toronto was basically just their bench guys, they didn't even bring their stars on the flight to TO.

The other bit was Kyrie Irving missing over half the games in the season as a healthy scratch due to him refusing to get vaccinated, the Nets wound up in the play-in when they were supposed to be legit contenders that year. The Cavs were ahead of the Raptors the entire season, then went through multiple injuries to key players that knocked them out of a clear playoff spot, if Mobley doesn't get injured that season Scottie doesn't win ROY, it was going to Mobley until he got shut down.

The Raptors were just healthy at the right time and made a great run to end the season with Nick Nurse doing his best coaching job and bamboozling the rest of the league with his strategy of fighting hard for rebounds and steals to paper over the deep flaws in the roster. We got an unsustainable stretch of 3 point shooting from Precious, everyone was pencilling him in as a core player after that season because he looked like a legit 3+D PF/C. It all evaporated next season as teams started to scout us and realized we had no size and 3 point shooting, instead of teams going small to beat us they went big to counter our rebounding and we had no answer, we traded for Jak which made our 3 point shooting even worse and here we are.

There's nothing really special about a 48 win team so not sure fool's gold is the right thing to call it when nobody thought that team was good enough to contend on it's own without adding a superstar or like I said Scottie becoming one himself.

The front office used this 48 win season to justify doubling down on the core of Pascal/Fred/OG though, that's the thing. In their minds it was a repeat of 2013-14 when the team was unexpectedly successful right at the point where they were planning on blowing everything up (Masai even tried to trade Kyle for a bag of beans back then before the winning streak). Coincidentally, the win totals were the same (48 wins), so I can see Masai drinking his own Kool-Aid and thinking "I've done it again!", he really did think this was the beginning of another run of perennial playoff appearances as did many on this board.

If he was doubling down, he would have upgraded that roster in the off season, traded most of our future assets and and try to take the next step to contender. The move for Jak was finally getting a C for that roster lacking one, giving them a chance to right the ship and they felt he would have value in the future as well as they expected to re-sign him. Point is it wasn't some All-In Move, it was securing a future asset too.

[Tha Cynic]

When Jack is calling you out, he might be a problem. 2nd time he called out darko challenge, chewed him up against Orlando saying we are fully healthy, and questioned why Davion only played last few secs of each quarter.

“Darko is doing a good job” — real gm

Why has Davion fallen out of the rotation? Did I miss something?

He defends too much and too well

[Tha Cynic]

We've talked about this because many don't agree with you. This core blows lol.

When did I say the core doesn't blow?

Teams have to start each season at 90% of the cap. Would you like to over-pay a bunch of mid-level guys on 1-2 year contracts or hope you can get something for Barrett and Poeltl? Or do you just not want any contracts to trade?

Washington signed Valanciunas. The Pistons signed Harris. Portland carries Grant and Ayton. There is a reason.

The main difference is that we've "locked in" to our core and our core has shown to be one of the worst teams in basketball. If we want to improve we don't have any real cap space to do so.

OKC has shown everyone how a real rebuild looks with how they kept stockpiling draft picks and managed their cap space beautifully where they could add someone like Hartenstein on top of everything they already had. We added our Hartenstein in Poeltl 2 years ago for no reason and everything since has been a disaster.

Now we delayed the inevitable with nothing more than 1 extra 1st rounder at our disposal. Newsflash, this franchise needs a lot more than whatever we have available to us. Maybe he can add to that at the deadline with Brown, Olynyk and Boucher but I doubt it.

The contracts are all fine. They don't have a bunch of bad contracts but have guys who are still young and could individually be used in trades. Guys like Olynyk can be moved to facilitate bigger salaries. Brown expires. They've done a pretty good job of keeping salaries on the books to use in trades, while also making sure the bigger contracts are moveable. There's a reason they didn't sign Siakam to the max. I think the whole salary thing is way overblown. Pretty much every team has alaries tied to mediocre rosters parts

OKC was good drafting, luck, and unique situations. Others have tried this method for decades and been very bad too. Sucking and losing doesn't always work. The biggest part of their team was still due to a trade where the Clippers were forced to give up Shai to get George for Kawhi.

[dandaman]

start ochai. gradey is wasted as a minus defender/5th scorer type. doesn't really excel in that role at all. you're looking at a 3+D strong roleplayer there, which he isn't.

walter/gradey is okay off-the-bench.

ideally, we draft a starting caliber 2 in the draft whether that's harper/jak/tre johnson/edgecombe or its flagg/bailey which would move RJ to the two, which would be fine with me as well.

otherwise, the rotation priority is kinda a mess but they're trying to both showcase their vets in kelly/bruce plus prioritise developments for their various rooks when they're not really ready, so it's gonna be looking very rough. and it's clear that winning isn't top of mind. they're using a lot of these games to experiment and get these guys working on various skills in-game.

Why would you start Ochai ahead of JKW? JKW is younger, better shooter, ball handler, and he is just as good on defense.

Cause half this board is converted puck heads who never played ball in their life and wouldn't recognize talent if it hit them in their face, agbaji is a 12th guy on a playoff team, just because his 3pt shot is better doesnt mean he has improved, he is a stand still 3pt shooter and above average defender, not a defensive stopper by any means, almost joey graham level robotic, zero level fluidity on his drives and finishes, Jakobe can be a 3 level scorer and a bonafide starter

[Brinbe]

start ochai. gradey is wasted as a minus defender/5th scorer type. doesn't really excel in that role at all. you're looking at a 3+D strong roleplayer there, which he isn't.

walter/gradey is okay off-the-bench.

ideally, we draft a starting caliber 2 in the draft whether that's harper/jak/tre johnson/edgecombe or its flagg/bailey which would move RJ to the two, which would be fine with me as well.

otherwise, the rotation priority is kinda a mess but they're trying to both showcase their vets in kelly/bruce plus prioritise developments for their various rooks when they're not really ready, so it's gonna be looking very rough. and it's clear that winning isn't top of mind. they're using a lot of these games to experiment and get these guys working on various skills in-game.

Why would you start Ochai ahead of JKW? JKW is younger, better shooter, ball handler, and he is just as good on defense.

Because it's not really necessary right now. Again, like Gradey he'd just be slotted into a 3+D role as the 5th guy in that pecking order behind RJ/Scottie/IQ/Yak. Ochai is more limited but fine as the 5th guy that doesn't really need shots and is fine in a limited role.

Walter can definitely start down the road but why rush things right now? nothing wrong with letting come off the bench and having more relative freedom against lesser opposition in opposing bench units. As long as he's getting minutes right now it's all good.

and they have given him starts as is and he's gotten caved in



and ochai

[Spates]

There's nothing really special about a 48 win team so not sure fool's gold is the right thing to call it when nobody thought that team was good enough to contend on it's own without adding a superstar or like I said Scottie becoming one himself.

The front office used this 48 win season to justify doubling down on the core of Pascal/Fred/OG though, that's the thing. In their minds it was a repeat of 2013-14 when the team was unexpectedly successful right at the point where they were planning on blowing everything up (Masai even tried to trade Kyle for a bag of beans back then before the winning streak). Coincidentally, the win totals were the same (48 wins), so I can see Masai drinking his own Kool-Aid and thinking "I've done it again!", he really did think this was the beginning of another run of perennial playoff appearances as did many on this board.

If he was doubling down, he would have upgraded that roster in the off season, traded most of our future assets and and try to take the next step to contender. The move for Jak was finally getting a C for that roster lacking one, giving them a chance to right the ship and they felt he would have value in the future as well as they expected to re-sign him. Point is it wasn't some All-In Move, it was securing a future asset too.

Realistically the roster reached its peak when they won 48 games.

Looking at the Orlando Magic of the last two seasons, it's hard to fathom why the Barnes/OG/FVV/Siakam Raptors couldn't be as successful.

[Tripod]

I like Walter....but how can anyone actually believe he is a better than Ochai right now?

Ochai should be the OBVIOUS choice as the 5th starter. Brings 3% shooting. Brings defense. Hell, use his energy on defense so others don't have to. Plays off ball.

Both Gradey and Walter can come in off the bench and be EXPECTED to supply offense. Gradey should come in when IQ goes out so we at least have a threat of a shooter. Walter comes in for RJ as someone to pushes to get inside.

[ciueli]

The front office used this 48 win season to justify doubling down on the core of Pascal/Fred/OG though, that's the thing. In their minds it was a repeat of 2013-14 when the team was unexpectedly successful right at the point where they were planning on blowing everything up (Masai even tried to trade Kyle for a bag of beans back then before the winning streak). Coincidentally, the win totals were the same (48 wins), so I can see Masai drinking his own Kool-Aid and thinking "I've done it again!", he really did think this was the beginning of another run of perennial playoff appearances as did many on this board.

If he was doubling down, he would have upgraded that roster in the off season, traded most of our future assets and and try to take the next step to contender. The move for Jak was finally getting a C for that roster lacking one, giving them a chance to right the ship and they felt he would have value in the future as well as they expected to re-sign him. Point is it wasn't some All-In Move, it was securing a future asset too.

Realistically the roster reached its peak when they won 48 games.

Looking at the Orlando Magic of the last two seasons, it's hard to fathom why the Barnes/OG/FVV/Siakam Raptors couldn't be as successful.

We've spent years debating this, it's not an unanswered question. Scottie and Pascal didn't work well together because they are both PFs, both work best occupying the same spots on the floor, and neither was good at 3 point shooting at the time which killed spacing (effectively 2 poor 3 point shooters on the floor at the same time, 3 if you throw in another big like Precious, Boucher, Koloko, Birch, or Poeltl).

I do think Pascal/OG/Fred could have worked as core pieces with the right players around them, specifically a 3+D centre (Myles Turner was very available for years) along with a better SG (keeping Norm instead of trading him for Gary Trent Jr. might have been enough there). Competent bench players would have been needed as well, players Masai largely failed to find, ultimately it wouldn't have worked given the pay packages Pascal, OG, Fred, Turner, and Norm got, that's a deep tax team and probably not a team that gets out of the second round even with a few decent bench players.

[Spates]

If he was doubling down, he would have upgraded that roster in the off season, traded most of our future assets and and try to take the next step to contender. The move for Jak was finally getting a C for that roster lacking one, giving them a chance to right the ship and they felt he would have value in the future as well as they expected to re-sign him. Point is it wasn't some All-In Move, it was securing a future asset too.

Realistically the roster reached its peak when they won 48 games.

Looking at the Orlando Magic of the last two seasons, it's hard to fathom why the Barnes/OG/FVV/Siakam Raptors couldn't be as successful.

We've spent years debating this, it's not an unanswered question. Scottie and Pascal didn't work well together because they are both PFs, both work best occupying the same spots on the floor, and neither was good at 3 point shooting at the time which killed spacing (effectively 2 poor 3 point shooters on the floor at the same time, 3 if you throw in another big like Precious, Boucher, Koloko, Birch, or Poeltl).

I do think Pascal/OG/Fred could have worked as core pieces with the right players around them, specifically a 3+D centre (Myles Turner was very available for years) along with a better SG (keeping Norm instead of trading him for Gary Trent Jr. might have been enough there). Competent bench players would have been needed as well, players Masai largely failed to find, ultimately it wouldn't have worked given the pay packages Pascal, OG, Fred, Turner, and Norm got, that's a deep tax team and probably not a team that gets out of the second round even with a few decent bench players.

I meant defensively. The offense was what it was....

But actually, by certain metrics 2022-2024 Nurse led Raptors had better offensive efficiency numbers than the current Magic. Now I know those raps sacrificed a lot to win the "numbers" game. What I'm wondering is if those teams could have been dominant defensively and whether they would've been more successful had they played a more traditional defense.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Jarrett Allen has been WAY better than Poeltl on defense this year. Poeltl has not been good defensively this year. I don't know it it's minutes related but his reputation exceeds what he's currently doing on the floor. 30/30 NBA teams would take Jarrett Allen over Poeltl. Everyone thinks that Poeltl is having some type of career year because they are only basing it off counting stats because he's playing more minutes (apparenlty at the cost of his defense). And yes, Chet is a C. He has played the majority of his minutes at C during his career. Throw Zubac onto the list of C's who is better than Poeltl too. He's averaging 15/12/2.5 and providing much better rim protection. JJJ as well. Porzingis (if healthy).

There is no argument that Poeltl is a top 10 C. Especially given his defensive decline this season.

You're arguing at the margins here and don't really understand the centre position I don't think.

Explain it to me. Give me reasons why Poeltl is a top 10 center.

Already done that, and if you can't see why he is better than Jarret Allen based on last night, I can't help you.