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PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons

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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#421 » by Tor_Raps » Sun Jan 12, 2025 8:43 pm

Indeed wrote:
Tor_Raps wrote:Damn... 21 pages for a post game thread against the Pistons. We suck folks and it's easy to see why, onto the next game lol


Cleveland game commentator said it very well, they dont want a blaming culture. Howerver, the blaming culture has been there for a while from players expression.

Our current system also not putting the strength of the team in priority, and perhaps putting our weakness in display, particularly our defensive system in going through screens. Maybe that works towards for the future.


All Darko cares about are assists. If you move the ball around on offense, he ignores everything else about the player.

It's why a guy like Boucher gets benched and other guys can continue to crap the bed defensively and on the boards with no punishment. It's a horrible way to run your team.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#422 » by ItsDanger » Sun Jan 12, 2025 8:59 pm

Net rating of this starting 4 after 4 games is -25.7. Wow, that's bad.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#423 » by Ell Curry » Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:01 pm

Tha Cynic wrote:Barrett can get to the rim, but he really doesn’t shift defenses. Generally teams don’t overreact to his drives as he kind of gallops his way there. The only player on this team who shifts defenses is Barnes as he consistently faces double and triple coverage when he gets the ball inside the arc. Teams typically just play Barrett and Quickley single coverage


Agreed.

Ultimately the problem with guys like RJ, or Rudy Gay, or even Brandon Ingram or DeMar (their better versions), is that they lack what people have started calling "portability" the last decade or two. And they always seem to get overpaid because

As your #1 or #2 scorer, Barrett is not significantly worse than someone like Quickley. But if they're competing to be the #3 or #4 options on offence - which they have to be if the team is gonna be good and the other 4 starters aren't like a top 5 guy like Jokic/SGA and then a couple 3 and D guys and a defensive star,, and even then you'd want that innings-eater style offensive guy to be a good defender like Josh Howard instead of RJ - there's a real gap between what Quickley can provide and what RJ can.

When your top 2 or 3 guys shift the defence and the ball swings to Quickley against a close out, he can put up a 3 where he shoots it well, or drive if the close out is hard enough to deny it. So you're getting a 3 from a good shooter or a paint touch if you help off him. Those are bad outcomes for a defence.

If it swings to RJ, you can just close out without running him off the 3 and letting him drive and it's like whatever, the possession you've given up is an average one (1.07 seems to be the halfcourt possession average in the league right now, but that includes offensive rebounds, so RJ shooting the 3 at like 1.02 per possession probably gets up to average with offensive rebounds I would guess?).

Like if we draft Harper and he's the guy he looks like offensively, he'll be better off with Quickley and Agbaji flanking him and providing spacing than he would with RJ in place of either guy.

RJ's game make more sense as a 6th man on a good team, keeping the 2nd unit afloat offensively. Or helping a team be respectable as a starter like he did on the Knicks before they were really good.

The Celtics and OKC don't have guys who can't hit a 3 AND play D in their rotation with the lone exception of Hartenstein or the Celtics depth centers. If you're playing 1-4, and you're not special, you gotta do both or at least one of those things. RJ does neither.

Our big hope should be that like Demar, he goes from a below average to an above average mid-range guy in his mid 20s, and can be dealt when that looks attractive to some team. Or you move him at the 2027 deadline as a similarly expiring deal after we've added 3 first rounders (ours the next 2 years and Indy's in 2026) and we have a better idea what Chomche, Walter and Dick look like and if Quickley is a solid starting PG or not and if Barnes is a top 25 or top 50 guy, and we know what kind of guy we need to target.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#424 » by ATLTimekeeper » Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:36 pm

RJ gets 2 feet in the paint better than anyone on our team, of course he draws more than one defender :lol: He has no scoring range and so that does limit his creation potential.

The offense looked it's best all year with RJ and Jak running PnRs and Gradey getting 18 FGAs. This is a .5 offense and it's supposed to operate on quick decisions. When you add in Scottie and IQ, they aren't as good with the ball in their hands and it takes a little more time and time helps the defense. I do want to keep the faith that they'll start to all find some chemistry once the schedule lightens up. Right now they are all flawed and people are trying to argue about who should be a hub for their own narratives.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#425 » by HangTime » Sun Jan 12, 2025 10:25 pm

Tor_Raps wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Tor_Raps wrote:Damn... 21 pages for a post game thread against the Pistons. We suck folks and it's easy to see why, onto the next game lol


Cleveland game commentator said it very well, they dont want a blaming culture. Howerver, the blaming culture has been there for a while from players expression.

Our current system also not putting the strength of the team in priority, and perhaps putting our weakness in display, particularly our defensive system in going through screens. Maybe that works towards for the future.


All Darko cares about are assists. If you move the ball around on offense, he ignores everything else about the player.

It's why a guy like Boucher gets benched and other guys can continue to crap the bed defensively and on the boards with no punishment. It's a horrible way to run your team.


I think It's more to work on 1 thing at a time. The High assists are to keep guys engaged off the ball. The Defence will come later.

Whenever we see something working well, Darko will shut it down, pocket it for later, and work on something else.

When you watching, it's pretty obvious.

I like watching it, and I wasn't even a pro-tanker at the start of the year.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#426 » by Tor_Raps » Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:33 pm

HangTime wrote:
Tor_Raps wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Cleveland game commentator said it very well, they dont want a blaming culture. Howerver, the blaming culture has been there for a while from players expression.

Our current system also not putting the strength of the team in priority, and perhaps putting our weakness in display, particularly our defensive system in going through screens. Maybe that works towards for the future.


All Darko cares about are assists. If you move the ball around on offense, he ignores everything else about the player.

It's why a guy like Boucher gets benched and other guys can continue to crap the bed defensively and on the boards with no punishment. It's a horrible way to run your team.


I think It's more to work on 1 thing at a time. The High assists are to keep guys engaged off the ball. The Defence will come later.

Whenever we see something working well, Darko will shut it down, pocket it for later, and work on something else.

When you watching, it's pretty obvious.

I like watching it, and I wasn't even a pro-tanker at the start of the year.


Haha stop with the delusion man, Darko is not pocketing anything. Coaches are hired to be fired so when you get your chance, you're trying to show your worth.

Go watch Jordi Fernendez who is doing so well with less to the point his GM keeps trading his players away from him. Coaches/players do not tank when they get on the floor.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#427 » by Dennis 37 » Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:40 pm

HangTime wrote:
Tor_Raps wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Cleveland game commentator said it very well, they dont want a blaming culture. Howerver, the blaming culture has been there for a while from players expression.

Our current system also not putting the strength of the team in priority, and perhaps putting our weakness in display, particularly our defensive system in going through screens. Maybe that works towards for the future.


All Darko cares about are assists. If you move the ball around on offense, he ignores everything else about the player.

It's why a guy like Boucher gets benched and other guys can continue to crap the bed defensively and on the boards with no punishment. It's a horrible way to run your team.


I think It's more to work on 1 thing at a time. The High assists are to keep guys engaged off the ball. The Defence will come later.

Whenever we see something working well, Darko will shut it down, pocket it for later, and work on something else.

When you watching, it's pretty obvious.

I like watching it, and I wasn't even a pro-tanker at the start of the year.


Darko is either a genius, or not very good. I have the patience to find out which.

What I am tiring of is the brain parts where I find myself saying:

Maxpainmedia:
"NYC has the **** most Two Faced fans, but we ALL loved IQ,, and that is super rare, I've been a Knicks fan for 37 years, this kid is a star and he will snap in Toronto"
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#428 » by Scase » Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:58 pm

Ell Curry wrote:
RJ's game make more sense as a 6th man on a good team, keeping the 2nd unit afloat offensively. Or helping a team be respectable as a starter like he did on the Knicks before they were really good.

Been saying this all year and so many refuse to accept it, if he is a primary scorer on your team, you have a low low ceiling. If he is a 6th man on your team, you likely have quite a high ceiling.

Right now it doesn't matter for us as we don't have a better option, but people thinking he is a long term solution are out to lunch.
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Re: PG: Raptors lose to the Pistons 

Post#429 » by Indeed » Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:08 am

Ell Curry wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Regarding Barret defense, these are all the Harris points, may want you to explain what was so bad about Barrett. I see him lack the wingspan and size to guard SF, but he was the only one forcing for a fadaway. Also the one losing him on screen during inbound was an offensive foul (illegal screen).

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022400534&PlayerID=202699&RangeType=0&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612765&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

And Barnes getting to the post and score fadaways in mid range are good? Aren't those low efficient shots that we probably don't want?


Are you doing a bit? Over RJ, I see an And 1, two open 3s, a fairly easy fadeaway and a simple step through after getting in the lane easy for a 3 footer on that list of clips. Harris went 17-7-3 on 50/40/100 shooting. Had his 10th highest game score out of 37 games this season. If we defend at a 28th percentile level, that's bad.

RJ does not have a position on D. Too slow to guard the 2, too weak to guard the 3, doesn't make plays off ball, poor technique, just doesn't lock in on too many possessions.

Like I said, every game I think the absolute worst defensive possessions we have tend to involve Gradey, but if you ranked like the 4th worst to 15th most annoying individual defensive moments , RJ would almost always be involved in over half of them.

Re: Barnes, I think he's gotta live at the rim and have mid-range options and be able to pass from the post and have a fairly diverse offensive game that is primarily about him finishing inside, getting to the line and passing. That will take time, and probably better teammates around him. But I think it's better than him trying to play PG.


How are those being open 3s? The 2nd one on the list was not open, and once he hits that, Barrett was closing on him (the 7th one being missed). The 5th one (as said) it was clearly an offensive foul by Duran on that illegal screen (his feet wasn't even set when hitting Barrett). The 6th one And 1 was standing in front of Harris for a whistle? Weak call? He did the same on the 8th one and the 13th, but he doesn't have the length (agree he should not guard 3 or even 4). Hard to say he was defending him badly on the 8th and 13th, Barrett was all over him and Harris was shooting fadaway one hand hanging (you call those easy shots?).

As for Barnes, he live at the rim would put him at C, which he has not shown he is capable of beating length nor protecting the rim. Furthermore, it is easy to say we add a stretch 5 with defense just to have his inefficient mid-range shot. Building around him on offense is like building around Barrett on defense. The start of the season we can hide Barrett on the defense, until we changed our defensive system to go through screens and not playing more passive set defense.

Not saying Barrett is a good defender, but definitely not as you and some others calling him out.

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