The benefits of winning

[Merit]

When the raptors are winning he’ll be in all-star contention.

Most allstar nods reward winning at mid season.

If he sucks as much ass as he did this year as a scorer, I'd be mildly surprised, given other guys who missed.

Even in a worst case scenario where this is exactly what we get from Scottie - his defensive performance will play up when on the court with Brandon Ingram. They are synergistic players IMO.

His defense will certainly be of value next to BI. They will likely go well together if we can get Scottie shooting less, for sure.

Scottie doesn’t need to be option 1 on offence. IMO he’s better suited as a 3/4. Think Rasheed Wallace with better passing, a better second jump and worse shooting/rebounding, but the ability to guard 1-5. Sheed was more of a defend some 3’s and then 4s/5s.

IQ(#2)/Ochai(Glue guy)/BI(#1)/Scottie(#3)/Jak (#4)
Shead/Jakobe/RJ (6th man/#1 bench option)/Gradey/Mogbo

Looks to me that we still have roster consolidation to do, especially given our two picks in the upcoming draft. Still not sure where the Raptors will end up - will it be more of a defensive lineup like I’ve shown above, or will it be more like IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak - where the defence is above average, but the offensive skill should be far above that. We could also do a GSW lite death lineup with Scottie at the 5 in some matchups.

Spitballing - but that’s where my head is at right now. Of course, getting a generational player could throw all this out the window.

[tsherkin]

Scottie doesn’t need to be option 1 on offence. IMO he’s better suited as a 3/4.

Correct. He isn't a sufficiently competent scorer to fill the #1 or #2 role at this time, so we need to reduce his scoring responsibility the moment we start actively trying to win. With you.

Think Rasheed Wallace with better passing, a better second jump and worse shooting/rebounding, but the ability to guard 1-5. Sheed was more of a defend some 3’s and then 4s/5s.

So, that isn't a hot example. Sheed was a very good poster defender who sealed off really well and looked literally nothing like Scottie on offense, particularly once he went to Detroit. He's not a particularly good example, and he couldn't really guard 1-5. He could guard 4/5, and wasn't awful switching briefly on a screen.


The problem remains how to make Scottie useful on offense without asking him to score too much, given his sundry weaknesses.

Defensively, he's going to be very, very good for us, and he's a strong rebounder for a 3 and an okay rebounder for a 4. And I imagine he'd be semi-tolerable as a small-ball 5, I guess.

[Merit]

Scottie doesn’t need to be option 1 on offence. IMO he’s better suited as a 3/4.

Correct. He isn't a sufficiently competent scorer to fill the #1 or #2 role at this time, so we need to reduce his scoring responsibility the moment we start actively trying to win. With you.

Think Rasheed Wallace with better passing, a better second jump and worse shooting/rebounding, but the ability to guard 1-5. Sheed was more of a defend some 3’s and then 4s/5s.

So, that isn't a hot example. Sheed was a very good poster defender who sealed off really well and looked literally nothing like Scottie on offense, particularly once he went to Detroit. He's not a particularly good example, and he couldn't really guard 1-5. He could guard 4/5, and wasn't awful switching briefly on a screen.


The problem remains how to make Scottie useful on offense without asking him to score too much, given his sundry weaknesses.

Defensively, he's going to be very, very good for us, and he's a strong rebounder for a 3 and an okay rebounder for a 4. And I imagine he'd be semi-tolerable as a small-ball 5, I guess.

I think we largely agree, only I believe Scottie still has room for growth. His shot diet is going to look a lot different next year, and I still hope he develops a consistent above the break 3, or yeast takes more corner 3’s.

I think we’re also saying similar things defensively. What you said about sheed is what I was also trying to say. When comparing Scottie and Sheed I’m thinking about team contributions, basketball iq, defensive metrics and a fiery personality. Sheed was underrated on those Detroit teams - despite being a key contributor. I feel scottie is being underrated in terms of his growth trajectory right now. Of course, Scottie is more reined in than Sheed, who was Mr. Tech - and yes - they’re nothing alike offensively since sheed could shoot the 3.

Scottie also has the “clutch” gene. I’m not sure how to define that, but he levels up in crunch time. Think Dwayne Wade not hitting a 3 all game, and then taking over in the 4th. Scottie isn’t quite there yet, but he definitely elevates his play in the 4th. I haven’t checked the stats here though, and am speaking strictly in terms of the eye test.

Bottom line for me: I think he’s paid fairly and makes the team better when he’s on the court. I don’t think we consider moving him for someone like KD.

[tsherkin]

I think we largely agree, only I believe Scottie still has room for growth. His shot diet is going to look a lot different next year, and I still hope he develops a consistent above the break 3, or yeast takes more corner 3’s.

I have no faith that he will be consistent ATB. My hope has been, and I have articulated this many times, that he will suck less when we get him off-ball more, because he isn't good on-ball. I hope we explore more roll man action with him, more cuts, more screening action, etc. I hope we use him in the corners, because even as a boob 8% worse than league average from the corners, that's a decent 3P% we can work with a bit.

I think we’re also saying similar things defensively.

We are. I don't like the Sheed comparison, but I think quite well of Scottie from a defensive standpoint. It is his focal strength, and it has been since before the draft/

Scottie also has the “clutch” gene. I’m not sure how to define that, but he levels up in crunch time. Think Dwayne Wade not hitting a 3 all game, and then taking over in the 4th. Scottie isn’t quite there yet, but he definitely elevates his play in the 4th. I haven’t checked the stats here though, and am speaking strictly in terms of the eye test.

No, he's statistically at his best in the 3rd, when he tends to receive his highest level of passing support. It is somewhat close. He does tend to be better in the second half, generally speaking.

[MessiahUjiri]

When the raptors are winning he’ll be in all-star contention.

Most allstar nods reward winning at mid season.

If he sucks as much ass as he did this year as a scorer, I'd be mildly surprised, given other guys who missed.

Even in a worst case scenario where this is exactly what we get from Scottie - his defensive performance will play up when on the court with Brandon Ingram. They are synergistic players IMO.

His defense will certainly be of value next to BI. They will likely go well together if we can get Scottie shooting less, for sure.

Scottie doesn’t need to be option 1 on offence. IMO he’s better suited as a 3/4. Think Rasheed Wallace with better passing, a better second jump and worse shooting/rebounding, but the ability to guard 1-5. Sheed was more of a defend some 3’s and then 4s/5s.

IQ(#2)/Ochai(Glue guy)/BI(#1)/Scottie(#3)/Jak (#4)
Shead/Jakobe/RJ (6th man/#1 bench option)/Gradey/Mogbo

Looks to me that we still have roster consolidation to do, especially given our two picks in the upcoming draft. Still not sure where the Raptors will end up - will it be more of a defensive lineup like I’ve shown above, or will it be more like IQ/RJ/BI/Scottie/Jak - where the defence is above average, but the offensive skill should be far above that. We could also do a GSW lite death lineup with Scottie at the 5 in some matchups.

Spitballing - but that’s where my head is at right now. Of course, getting a generational player could throw all this out the window.

You captured it exactly right, except I think you’re discounting the draft too much.

Assuming we stay at 7, we will be in position to draft a super high impact guy. I’m thinking one of Kasp/Fears at 7 will be the guy if we go guard, or one of Queen/Maluach will be the guy if we go big.

We can also make a draft day trade to get another 1st rounder, likely by attaching some asset. We could come out of this in a very good condition.

Still too much uncertainly with Ingrams health IMO, but him and Scottie and Quickley and Poeltl are an excellent quartet.

[Merit]

I think we largely agree, only I believe Scottie still has room for growth. His shot diet is going to look a lot different next year, and I still hope he develops a consistent above the break 3, or yeast takes more corner 3’s.

I have no faith that he will be consistent ATB. My hope has been, and I have articulated this many times, that he will suck less when we get him off-ball more, because he isn't good on-ball. I hope we explore more roll man action with him, more cuts, more screening action, etc. I hope we use him in the corners, because even as a boob 8% worse than league average from the corners, that's a decent 3P% we can work with a bit.

I think we’re also saying similar things defensively.

We are. I don't like the Sheed comparison, but I think quite well of Scottie from a defensive standpoint. It is his focal strength, and it has been since before the draft/

Scottie also has the “clutch” gene. I’m not sure how to define that, but he levels up in crunch time. Think Dwayne Wade not hitting a 3 all game, and then taking over in the 4th. Scottie isn’t quite there yet, but he definitely elevates his play in the 4th. I haven’t checked the stats here though, and am speaking strictly in terms of the eye test.

No, he's statistically at his best in the 3rd, when he tends to receive his highest level of passing support. It is somewhat close. He does tend to be better in the second half, generally speaking.

Thanks for checking on the 4th quarter stats. I still stand by my “clutch gene” observations. I happen to think they’ll play up with better spacing.

For sure, a corner 3 is somewhat there already. However, as Samson Folk spoke of today, it’s his middy that has the most developmental potential. As I’ve alluded to previously, BI/Scottie as a tandem account for each other’s weaknesses nicely.

I’m admittedly forcing things a bit with Sheed. Even their body types are different. A more contemporary option offensively might be early Aaron Gordon. Or Wigs even. Heck, Caris Levert too. On the negative side: Antione walker or Josh Smith. An idealistic and very interesting archetype might be CWebb.

Regardless, I don’t think we see him pound the rock into a forced shot as frequently next year. I do see more bully ball and hunting mismatches. Like you said, his playing off the ball is helpful too, especially as the roller. I’m still looking for more from him and IQ together.

Bottom line: If he develops any sort of shooting prowess - his player profile shifts considerably. I’m cautiously optimistic. My reasons for that are his injuries this season, his age and his fierce determination.

[Scott Hall]

The Spurs' dynasty was as much attributed to convincing Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili to take pay cuts to remain competitive. If that isn't a cultural benefit, I don't know what is? Mind you, I don't think that benefit exists today, but the Spurs have not been able to compete effectively in the modern era. Once Kawhi/Uncle Dennis stared them down, they became just another team.

We're talking about end of season tanking (March-April) all the other stuff is irrelevant.

Do you know how the Spurs got Tim Duncan? their team got wiped out by injuries that year and their just
happened to be a Generational player in the draft. Guys like David Robinson, Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson etc
didn't seem to be negatively affected by the losing "culture" of that year as they threw games down the stretch
to get the best lotto odds.

2 years later they won a Championship the first of many. Anti tankers also forget the majority of the league isn't
California or Florida they aren't getting top level free agents to collude playing there and outside of trades this
is the only way to acquire elite talent and you also need high end assets like high end lotto picks usually if you
want to make big trades.

The current Spurs gutted their team and strategically tanked for Wemby with other tank moves they collected
tons of assets and cashed out some of them on Fox. Plus they have Castle last years 4th pick another top 10 pick
this year and lots more picks in their collection. If Wemby is ok they'll be running the league again in no time.

Also one more thing about culture and chemistry Jordan and Pippen weren't besties. Shaq and Kobe hated
each other. Lebron ended up winning a ring after bailing on BFF Wade and lil bro Kyrie people put way to
much stock into that stuff. The NBA isn't like other sports leagues it's always been a talent driven league.

David Robinson played 6 games, why would he be impacted by losing culture? You're confusing some situations, here, the Spurs were highly successful prioritizing winning culture up until the point where they were decimated by injuries. Tanking out one year with a vet team, when it's clear that they're already a great team and only losing because of injuries, is different than drafting a bunch of young players and telling them to not care about wins and losses for as long as it takes.

The Spurs current situation isn't from 'gutting' the team, it's from ageing out and drafting poorly. Had they drafted Haliburton over Vassell, Sengun over Primo, etc, they would not have tanked for Wemby. They chose to tank because they were bad at replacing their stars. That's not smart. That's just what happened. And all those moves you tout as promising don't mean anything if they're building around Brandon Miller over Wemby. That's luck.

The trivial stuff everyone knows about Jordan-Pippen, Shaq-Kobe, etc has nothing to do with this topic. No one said players had to be friends to win games.

You've got the Spurs situation all wrong whether they did it after being injury ravaged in 1997 for Duncan or
hardcore tanking for Wemby they did it in both scenarios. You down playing what they did on what ifs is silly.
It's about collecting on high end assets and when you're a small market the only way you get high end talent
is drafting guys like Wemby and trading for Fox.

Now teammates beefing is "trivial" to Culture people lol

Ok answer me this how many games did the Pistons win last year after their dirty tank? how many losses
did they have in a row? what is their record this year? does Cade Cunningham and Duren seem to be negatively
affected by last years "losing culture" ? Lets see you spin and down play that one.

[Scott Hall]

I look forward to the Spurs running the league in the same conference as OKC and the great Angie in Utah. Let the tankers beat up on each other every year.

Reading through this thread a lot of people don't understand what's been going on with the Spurs. They
got Wemby, they took advantage of an opportunity and got Fox for pennies on the dollar. Casual fans
still have no idea how good Stephon Castle is/gonna be.

They also got 11 picks inn the next 7 drafts 4th most in the NBA including some juicy pick swaps.
So if another star or superstar becomes available their best offer will be hard to beat and be right up
there. They also don't have any real long term bad contracts so they could sign a star free agent depending
on their cap/luxury tax plans and they're still good at finding obscure good talent.

The only thing that can stop the Spurs from being a Top 5 team in the next few years is Wembys blood clot results.

[Rapsalot]

The benefits of winning will be Awesome next 3 years unless several players have season ending injuries.
This year we should enjoy the benefits of tanking. Even Miami the win culture is tanking like crazy!
IQ is getting reps and that is the only thing that matters outside of bench for next year. If J’KW comes back he could use some mins.

[Brinbe]

Even if they ultimately think Scottie isn't the cornerstone guy, and I don't think they're there yet, they'll soon be in a credible position to have the assets to go get that person if they wanted. They have total flexibility, especially with all their picks still in-house.

As is they've alread leveraged as much out of their cap space available to them right up to the tax line to accumulate a deep roster and they're hardly locked in anybody with no untradeable contracts.

[Tripod]

I look forward to the Spurs running the league in the same conference as OKC and the great Angie in Utah. Let the tankers beat up on each other every year.

Reading through this thread a lot of people don't understand what's been going on with the Spurs. They
got Wemby, they took advantage of an opportunity and got Fox for pennies on the dollar. Casual fans
still have no idea how good Stephon Castle is/gonna be.

They also got 11 picks inn the next 7 drafts 4th most in the NBA including some juicy pick swaps.
So if another star or superstar becomes available their best offer will be hard to beat and be right up
there. They also don't have any real long term bad contracts so they could sign a star free agent depending
on their cap/luxury tax plans and they're still good at finding obscure good talent.

The only thing that can stop the Spurs from being a Top 5 team in the next few years is Wembys blood clot results.

I don't think anyone is missing what the Spurs are doing and how good they can be in the future.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my comment...having the Spurs, OKC and Utah all stock up...then having to beat up on one another in the future, is funny to me.

[JB7]

I look forward to the Spurs running the league in the same conference as OKC and the great Angie in Utah. Let the tankers beat up on each other every year.

Reading through this thread a lot of people don't understand what's been going on with the Spurs. They
got Wemby, they took advantage of an opportunity and got Fox for pennies on the dollar. Casual fans
still have no idea how good Stephon Castle is/gonna be.

They also got 11 picks inn the next 7 drafts 4th most in the NBA including some juicy pick swaps.
So if another star or superstar becomes available their best offer will be hard to beat and be right up
there. They also don't have any real long term bad contracts so they could sign a star free agent depending
on their cap/luxury tax plans and they're still good at finding obscure good talent.

The only thing that can stop the Spurs from being a Top 5 team in the next few years is Wembys blood clot results.

I don't think anyone is missing what the Spurs are doing and how good they can be in the future.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my comment...having the Spurs, OKC and Utah all stock up...then having to beat up on one another in the future, is funny to me.

There are also the Lakers (once they build around Luka), Jokic still has possibly another 5 years of superstardom and if Minny could ever build around Ant, the West is going to be stacked.

Why I could easily see SGA asking out of OKC if they don't win this season or next. After the next 2 years, they then need to pay Chet and JDub, which means they probably lose IH & Dort. Question for OKC, is do they get lucky on one of those picks they own from other teams to draft a top end player that could dramatically change their outlook?