Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[djsunyc]

yup - it's like when pascal made 2nd team all-nba and blew up the cap.

[canada_dry]

This is a really poor take ignoring everything else that goes into basketball. Not everything is about scoring. Passing does in fact generate offense. Every hear about a player named Nikola Jokić?

It isn't as binary as that. Jokic is a hyper-efficient guy who just scored almost 30 ppg on a season, and has range. It does meaningfully impact his ability to make plays for others, as does his dramatically superior playmaking ability. He isn't a problematically-inefficient scorer with weak range and poor screening ability. It's just not a good example.

You're not wrong about playmaking more generally, though. Scottie's pretty valuable to us off of a DRB, kickstarting the break and wielding his passing there. And he does know how to manage a PnR pretty well. He's got good vision and technical passing ability. The trouble is, you mostly need a good number of possessions to leverage that meaningfully, so generally, you need to be able to score. And given our team's particulars, stacking "bleh" to "crap" scorers together isn't a good move for trying to uplift our offense, even with playmaking.


Now, we have new options this year as long as BI and Quick are healthy, so that's a good start. And maybe Darko will deploy Scottie a little differently now that we are actively trying to win. No more reason to just blindly experiment and see how it goes, after all. So maybe he'll find a way to help Scottie look better inside this new environment. There's lots to suggest that there will be more room for everyone to maneuver, at least while we're healthy to start.

Scottie and Jokic average almost identical ppg their first 4 years as players. It wasn't till Jokic's year 6 that his offence went from 19.9 ppg to 26.4 ppg. So lets not pretend he was some juggernaut out of the gate. It only makes sense for a Centre to be more efficient on offence. Especially with Scottie taking more 3s.

Jokic was being chastised for not scaling up his scoring more often because he was very capable of doing so as hesl's proven. EVERYONE wanted him to shoot more because of how undeniably skilled he was.

Kinda the opposite situation for scottie...they're not comparable.

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[Reeko]

I don't get why people are getting geeked at watching Mobley play 5 on 5 against a bunch of nobodies who he's at least half a foot taller than. That kind of stuff means absolutely nothing. Pretty sure it was David Thorpe who said that he doesn't see a lot of value in guys playing pick up games in terms of skill development. Actually working on individual skills is the most important thing. There's video out there of Scottie playing pick up and against actual NBA guys too. I promise you he's not just awkwardly rollerblading around town for the entire off season.

[Clutch0z24]

This year will be the first year Barnes will have a team as talented as his rookie year around him here.....Imo this is the year Barnes has to actually show he can bring a team to Ws or if he will be a good player on a below .500 team all his career....No excuses no more....

If we struggle to make the playoffs i think you have to start thinking about alot with the roster and what trades we have to make including Barnes himself....Good player but we have not really won with him.

[binjumper]

It isn't as binary as that. Jokic is a hyper-efficient guy who just scored almost 30 ppg on a season, and has range. It does meaningfully impact his ability to make plays for others, as does his dramatically superior playmaking ability. He isn't a problematically-inefficient scorer with weak range and poor screening ability. It's just not a good example.

You're not wrong about playmaking more generally, though. Scottie's pretty valuable to us off of a DRB, kickstarting the break and wielding his passing there. And he does know how to manage a PnR pretty well. He's got good vision and technical passing ability. The trouble is, you mostly need a good number of possessions to leverage that meaningfully, so generally, you need to be able to score. And given our team's particulars, stacking "bleh" to "crap" scorers together isn't a good move for trying to uplift our offense, even with playmaking.


Now, we have new options this year as long as BI and Quick are healthy, so that's a good start. And maybe Darko will deploy Scottie a little differently now that we are actively trying to win. No more reason to just blindly experiment and see how it goes, after all. So maybe he'll find a way to help Scottie look better inside this new environment. There's lots to suggest that there will be more room for everyone to maneuver, at least while we're healthy to start.

Scottie and Jokic average almost identical ppg their first 4 years as players. It wasn't till Jokic's year 6 that his offence went from 19.9 ppg to 26.4 ppg. So lets not pretend he was some juggernaut out of the gate. It only makes sense for a Centre to be more efficient on offence. Especially with Scottie taking more 3s.

Jokic was being chastised for not scaling up his scoring more often because he was very capable of doing so as hesl's proven. EVERYONE wanted him to shoot more because of how undeniably skilled he was.

Kinda the opposite situation for scottie...they're not comparable.

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Not comparing the two especially in terms of scoring. It was tsherkin who brought up the scoring efficiency. I am saying his play making and passing are great skills to have. Clearly the NBA values a player like Scottie.

[tsherkin]

Scottie and Jokic average almost identical ppg their first 4 years as players. It wasn't till Jokic's year 6 that his offence went from 19.9 ppg to 26.4 ppg. So lets not pretend he was some juggernaut out of the gate. It only makes sense for a Centre to be more efficient on offence. Especially with Scottie taking more 3s.

Jokic was being chastised for not scaling up his scoring more often because he was very capable of doing so as hesl's proven. EVERYONE wanted him to shoot more because of how undeniably skilled he was.

Kinda the opposite situation for scottie...they're not comparable.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Not comparing the two especially in terms of scoring. It was tsherkin who brought up the scoring efficiency. I am saying his play making and passing are great skills to have. Clearly the NBA values a player like Scottie.

Yes his playmaking is a nice to have. Its utility is throttled some by his scoring threat buy we have seen even in contemporary ball that jt can work out (especially because of his D). It is more a matter of best use case than discarding the player.

[Basketball_Jones]

Scottie really wants to be an on ball player and I kind of think he purposefully is just bad at setting screens because he wants that. Him and Mobley are both trying to be on ball guys. End of day, neither of those two will or should have that type of freedom in game to do what they do in these workout vids. Mobleys always had that stuff he just isn’t good enough at the nba level unless he simplifies and goes more Chris bosh/Garnett or even Dirk type of moves. Scottie I really don’t see any type of comparison for him to aspire to that’s realistic there.

[tsherkin]

Scottie really wants to be an on ball player and I kind of think he purposefully is just bad at setting screens because he wants that.

We pretty badly need Scottie to find a way to shoot less, screen better and more and stop needing to be on-ball so much, because he's not very good at it. The passing, sure, but we can leverage that by letting him grab DRBs and run in transition. Beyond that, his value to us on offense is in offensive rebounding and should also come from using those shoulders in some useful manner. It's so frustrating watching him play most of the time.

[dTox]

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[Buff]

Scottie really wants to be an on ball player and I kind of think he purposefully is just bad at setting screens because he wants that.

We pretty badly need Scottie to find a way to shoot less, screen better and more and stop needing to be on-ball so much, because he's not very good at it. The passing, sure, but we can leverage that by letting him grab DRBs and run in transition. Beyond that, his value to us on offense is in offensive rebounding and should also come from using those shoulders in some useful manner. It's so frustrating watching him play most of the time.

If by "on ball" you mean #1 scoring option give-me-the-ball type I'm not sure we're watching the same player. He does enjoy bringing the ball up which I think its harmless, but he has never displayed any of the selfish tendencies people are trying to attach to him. He never has had any trouble deferring to players like RJ, he even overpasses from time to time.

The over shooting these past couple years have been by design: "we're taking, go empty the clip".

[YoungG]

Not sure if this was posted earlier or not.

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[tsherkin]

If by "on ball" you mean #1 scoring option give-me-the-ball type I'm not sure we're watching the same player. He does enjoy bringing the ball up which I think its harmless, but he has never displayed any of the selfish tendencies people are trying to attach to him. He never has had any trouble deferring to players like RJ, he even overpasses from time to time.

I don't consider him selfish, and I don't think him advancing the ball is the problem, no. I don't describe his play as the result of some grand character flaw, or anything. It's pretty clearly a coaching initiative, as you say. We just need him to be off-ball in the half-court more and to reduce his shooting volume. I think he does about as good a job as anyone on the team grabbing a DRB and keying the break for us, so there'd be no reason to force him out of that habit, for example.

[Buff]

If by "on ball" you mean #1 scoring option give-me-the-ball type I'm not sure we're watching the same player. He does enjoy bringing the ball up which I think its harmless, but he has never displayed any of the selfish tendencies people are trying to attach to him. He never has had any trouble deferring to players like RJ, he even overpasses from time to time.

I don't consider him selfish, and I don't think him advancing the ball is the problem, no. I don't describe his play as the result of some grand character flaw, or anything. It's pretty clearly a coaching initiative, as you say. We just need him to be off-ball in the half-court more and to reduce his shooting volume. I think he does about as good a job as anyone on the team grabbing a DRB and keying the break for us, so there'd be no reason to force him out of that habit, for example.

I wasn't replying to you in particular, for what I remember we're close to the same page. Scottie should play a role similar to his rookie season (not stashed in a corner like the fred-pascal packing order year) and I think he'll be very good at it. But again, I think everyone (including Scottie) agrees he should not be the focus of the offense. So in a way, we are beating a dead horse.

[tsherkin]

I wasn't replying to you in particular, for what I remember we're close to the same page.

Right on, was just clarifying.

Scottie should play a role similar to his rookie season (not stashed in a corner like the fred-pascal packing order year) and I think he'll be very good at it. But again, I think everyone (including Scottie) agrees he should not be the focus of the offense. So in a way, we are beating a dead horse.

We only have so many options until the season starts, I suppose.

But there's room for more than just filling the corner with Scottie. In theory, he is pretty effective when he cuts and when he works in transition. He DOES have some decent size, and he has a decent mid-post game. He's not great at getting all the way to the rim, but he's pretty good at drawing fouls and he isn't bad from the line. He's got some tools, and with some more passing support and some more space, he SHOULD look a little better if we reduce his self-creation requirements. And now with Quick back and BI here, that should help spacing. And if Gradey can have a strong year, and such, we have some potential in that regard.