[Siegel] It's hard to imagine RJ Barrett and Ochai Agbaji both remain with the Raptors given the team's tax implications

[Indeed]

Ah yes, huge volume cutter RJ Barrett. Let’s check on his fga off cuts last year: 1.2. Monstrous cut frequency of 6.7%, good for about 186th leaguewide.

If you’re going to accuse others of being lazy maybe you should do some base level research about RJ’s shot diet.

RJ and Ochai are not being thrown around because they are low hanging fruit. They just happen to be the odd men out based on either contract (Ochai expiring, RJ likely overpaid), depth at their position (sg) or fit (RJ as a less than ideal fit with the other starters, which is not all his fault). We also have reports we tried to move RJ in the Ingram deal which doesn’t exactly scream “commitment” to him from our end. There are legitimate reasons these 2 guys keep coming up in trade talks.

Now who is being lazy?

Look at Barrett's first season when he was the third option. It isn't like I'm the only one that thinks this. Es did an article for raps republic saying same thing.

I don't disagree that RJ is on the block, or that he likely to be traded but that doesn't mean recycling old rumors isn't lazy. That doesn't we didn't try to trade him. It means right now we aren't getting fair value offers so he's far more likely to be on this team next year than not.


There is no immediate desperation or need to trade either RJ or Ochai. That they are the two most likely trade candidates isn't new reporting. it is regurgitating old reporting. It still far more likely that both are on our rosters to start the year.

How am I being lazy?

You said you think RJ is going to make strides partly based off of cutting. I merely pointed out that it will likely amount to 1 fga per game off of cuts. This isn’t like a guy scaling his 3pa to 7+ attempts per game.

Yeah, RJ should look better. How much it will actually help is tbd. RJ is not a good off-ball player. 1 cut possession per game isn’t moving the needle. Getting RJ better looks helps RJ but, like Barnes, improving their individual efficiency isn’t all that helpful for the rest of the team if we have to bury them in the corner. RJ is a decent player but his value declines the more you put him in an off-ball role. We would be much better served with volume 3pt shooting and wing defense (which we severely lack in our starting lineup). Is all of this RJ’s fault? No, but by most accounts we are the least committed to him of all our starters (based on salary + length of contract).

This reporting is based on the current construction (and salary) of our team after our off-season moves. I think it warrants discussion given our salary crunch. We don’t have much else to talk about right now.

Barrett being guarded by the best defender and with the best side kick being Dick offensively, so I am unsure how things can be evaluate.

I do think Quickley and Barnes being worse offensively are more overpaid and less demand, so trading Barrett makes more sense as he was the better player.

[tsherkin]

trading Barrett makes more sense as he was the better player.

Barrett's better than who, do you mean?

[Indeed]

trading Barrett makes more sense as he was the better player.

Barrett's better than who, do you mean?

Better non spacing connector PF and better than PG size SG who mainly shoots from long and mid range.

[TGM]

Well duh. I think it is pretty obvious that someone will be moved at the TDL to duck under the luxury tax

But the candidates probably include Ingram and Dick as well as Barrett and Agbaji. One of them will go. If the FO is smart, they move the player that is the best combination
1) Not in team's plans next season and beyond
and
2) best combination of assets returned (or at least a low cost to dump)

I am in favour of Ingram as the guy to go. If he proves me wrong and he is a legit #1 option, fine, but I am very sceptical that a team with Ingram as the #1 option is anything more than a 1st round playoff exit. It is also possible if TOR has some luck, and a healthy BI with good counting stats might recoup more than the FRP it took to get him.

We aren’t looking to trade BI without even having seen him play. Like there’s hot takes and there’s not takes. This is definitely not it. The candidates include anyone on the team and all picks. Doesn’t make them likely to go.

I’m tired of seeing this happen. We did it with OG, Norm, Pascal, Fred, Jak. We don’t need to do it again.

Why not, none of these guys are game changers.

Wait till he plays 25 games. I’m pretty sure people will realize his offensive talent is way superior to the rest of our guys.

[tsherkin]

Better non spacing connector PF and better than PG size SG who mainly shoots from long and mid range.

I still don't follow, sorry. Must have read past something. Are you trying to say he's better than Scottie, or that he's better than descriptions being given of him as a player?

[Indeed]

Better non spacing connector PF and better than PG size SG who mainly shoots from long and mid range.

I still don't follow, sorry. Must have read past something. Are you trying to say he's better than Scottie, or that he's better than descriptions being given of him as a player?

He is better in terms of other teams find him with better value, both skill wise and salary wise.

Do you think other teams would prefer to trade for a non spacing connector at PF who is at most average (inefficient) in creating his shot at near max?

[tsherkin]

Do you think other teams would prefer to trade for a non spacing connector at PF who is at most average (inefficient) in creating his shot at near max?

Of the two, I think teams would generally prefer to trade for Scottie. Barrett's been in the league longer without a ton of visible improvement, and remains an inefficient scorer apart from his brief little interlude with us right after the trade. He remains a mediocre defender at best, and it's clear that he requires some fairly specific conditions under which to thrive offensively even potentially.

So yes, I'd imagine teams would look with more interest at Barnes. Right at the moment, RJ is an inefficient volume scorer, which isn't a super attractive commodity. We're hoping we can get him beyond that, and obviously it's nice to see his improvement as a passer and other things, but he's not a generally compelling asset to most teams, would be my guess.

[anotherhomer]

Do you think other teams would prefer to trade for a non spacing connector at PF who is at most average (inefficient) in creating his shot at near max?

Of the two, I think teams would generally prefer to trade for Scottie. Barrett's been in the league longer without a ton of visible improvement, and remains an inefficient scorer apart from his brief little interlude with us right after the trade. He remains a mediocre defender at best, and it's clear that he requires some fairly specific conditions under which to thrive offensively even potentially.

So yes, I'd imagine teams would look with more interest at Barnes. Right at the moment, RJ is an inefficient volume scorer, which isn't a super attractive commodity. We're hoping we can get him beyond that, and obviously it's nice to see his improvement as a passer and other things, but he's not a generally compelling asset to most teams, would be my guess.

Barnes has utility as a do it all guy who can defend multiple spots

[tsherkin]

Barnes has utility as a do it all guy who can defend multiple spots

I imagine teams would like him more for the same reasons we aren't super ready to move on from him yet, right? He can do a little ball handling, a little passing, he's a very good defender, he rebounds well. I think we've capably displayed that he isn't a good volume scorer, but are still exploring his potential as a complementary scorer. So he has to still be some kind of attractive asset, even with his shooting issues and such.

[Indeed]

Barnes has utility as a do it all guy who can defend multiple spots

I imagine teams would like him more for the same reasons we aren't super ready to move on from him yet, right? He can do a little ball handling, a little passing, he's a very good defender, he rebounds well. I think we've capably displayed that he isn't a good volume scorer, but are still exploring his potential as a complementary scorer. So he has to still be some kind of attractive asset, even with his shooting issues and such.

Sorry to ruin the party, but Barnes is definitely not a multi position defender with his lack of quickness. We tried him guarding on the perimeter, and it was a mixed bag. Also, our only good defensive lineup was with Anunoby back in the days, Barnes was not anywhere near his impact if you go back to check those lineup.

Teams arent interested to reserving a near max contract for his production and defense, teams are more interested in Anunoby than him with their salary being similar.

[GLF]

I truly cannot believe we have gotten to the point that people think RJ is a better player than Scottie and we are actually debating it lol. I knew Scottie has started to become underrated but damn I didn’t realize it’s become THIS bad. And I like RJ more than most here. I can’t wait for this season to start and for Scottie to be playing on a team that’s actually trying to win and not having to be the number 1 option, because the disrespect has gotten out hand now.

[anotherhomer]

Barnes has utility as a do it all guy who can defend multiple spots

I imagine teams would like him more for the same reasons we aren't super ready to move on from him yet, right? He can do a little ball handling, a little passing, he's a very good defender, he rebounds well. I think we've capably displayed that he isn't a good volume scorer, but are still exploring his potential as a complementary scorer. So he has to still be some kind of attractive asset, even with his shooting issues and such.

Sorry to ruin the party, but Barnes is definitely not a multi position defender with his lack of quickness. We tried him guarding on the perimeter, and it was a mixed bag. Also, our only good defensive lineup was with Anunoby back in the days, Barnes was not anywhere near his impact if you go back to check those lineup.

Teams arent interested to reserving a near max contract for his production and defense, teams are more interested in Anunoby than him with their salary being similar.

he definitely cannot handle speedy, shifty guards, which is something OG could do.

but he handles bigger, larger guards which is the architype , and is important

[tsherkin]

Sorry to ruin the party, but Barnes is definitely not a multi position defender with his lack of quickness. We tried him guarding on the perimeter, and it was a mixed bag. Also, our only good defensive lineup was with Anunoby back in the days, Barnes was not anywhere near his impact if you go back to check those lineup.

None of that is a rebuttal of what I said. He remains a very helpful defender. You can't put him 1-5, sure, but there aren't that many guys who can do that and no one sane is talking about Barnes as a DPOY-level guy.

Teams arent interested to reserving a near max contract for his production and defense, teams are more interested in Anunoby than him with their salary being similar.

Sure. Irrelevant to the conversation, of course, because OG isn't on our team and everyone knows he's a high-end defender who is a 3+D guy, but sure.

Remember, we're speaking relative to Barrett, not Anunoby.

[Indeed]

I imagine teams would like him more for the same reasons we aren't super ready to move on from him yet, right? He can do a little ball handling, a little passing, he's a very good defender, he rebounds well. I think we've capably displayed that he isn't a good volume scorer, but are still exploring his potential as a complementary scorer. So he has to still be some kind of attractive asset, even with his shooting issues and such.

Sorry to ruin the party, but Barnes is definitely not a multi position defender with his lack of quickness. We tried him guarding on the perimeter, and it was a mixed bag. Also, our only good defensive lineup was with Anunoby back in the days, Barnes was not anywhere near his impact if you go back to check those lineup.

Teams arent interested to reserving a near max contract for his production and defense, teams are more interested in Anunoby than him with their salary being similar.

he definitely cannot handle speedy, shifty guards, which is something OG could do.

but he handles bigger, larger guards which is the architype , and is important

Bigger guard? You mean forward. He was not even guarding bgger guards. His only position is PF and cannot space the floor as PF on offense. He will need to shoot in order to have a true position on both ends.

[CPT]

Barrett being better than Barnes is an insane take in and of itself.

Believing that this is the consensus around the league is completely delusional.

Seems like trolling TBH.