[Grange] Should the Raptors get involved re: Trae Young?

[tsherkin]

I hear you and that’s totally fair. I feel that he does bear an unfair burden for being traded for Luka.

That said, he’s at his Kyle Lowry pre-raptors stage now. It’s put up or shut up time. Can he change his shot selection? Can he improve his POA defensive intensity? Can he stay focused and committed on that end?

I mean, I think we understand that he has his limitations. He has some floor-raising value, but only so much. So what we need to do is see how he performs in a situation where he actually has offensive talent to leverage around him.

I would absolutely trade IQ for him. In fact IQ would be a great fit on the Hawks as a 6th man since neither Daniel’s nor NAW are amazing shooters, though NAW has improved there.

IQ would probably fit better on Atlanta in context than Trae at the moment, for sure. They need the shooting. NAW is actually a pretty good shooter, as long as it's C+S stuff and not live dribble. He has been that way for a long time. He is benefiting a lot when Atlanta runs and the way JJ operates in transition. He is primarily a transition/C+S player, but in heavy volume for such, which is kind of neat.

[mdenny]

That's a good comp I think. A team that is desperate for shooting & has some extra parts/ draft picks laying around. A team that thinks an IQ type player will get them to the next level.

Its pretty crazy though. Right now IQ, RJ, BI & Scottie are all shooting very similar %'s from 3. Decent percentages, but no elite percentages from any one player.

This team truly is "the sum of its parts".

The 4 of them shoot very, very different 3 point looks though.

IQ + BI take a lot more pullup / off-balance / "higher difficulty" 3's. IQ is the only one on the team who has more than 10% of his 3's unassisted (and IQ is at 17% on that mark)

RJ/Barnes are almost all standstill c+s looks.

Great point. Agreed on the whole being better than the sum of its parts. I’m still waiting to see the Jak/IQ pick and roll synergy return.

IQ taking pull-up 3s unassisted should give you an idea of where (I feel) his teammates have placed him on the priority ladder. IQ tends to pull up and seek his shot a whole lot more than others, as a 6th man gunner should do.

His teammates place him as the best shooter on the team. The fact that he takes unassisted 3s is not proof that his teammates don't believe in his shot. He takes them because that is a huge part of his game and he's covered more closer than any other raptor along the perimeter. Defenders are less likely to leave IQ alone when anyone else attacks.

[Merit]

The 4 of them shoot very, very different 3 point looks though.

IQ + BI take a lot more pullup / off-balance / "higher difficulty" 3's. IQ is the only one on the team who has more than 10% of his 3's unassisted (and IQ is at 17% on that mark)

RJ/Barnes are almost all standstill c+s looks.

Great point. Agreed on the whole being better than the sum of its parts. I’m still waiting to see the Jak/IQ pick and roll synergy return.

IQ taking pull-up 3s unassisted should give you an idea of where (I feel) his teammates have placed him on the priority ladder. IQ tends to pull up and seek his shot a whole lot more than others, as a 6th man gunner should do.

Sure, because you need someone on your team who will do that in your starting lineup.

In fact, IQ takes less pull up 3's than most teams main "shooters" do. SGA is extreme but 75% of his 3's are unassisted. But Derrick White is at 37%, Ball 25%, etc.

League average is that 85.6% of 3's are assisted. Quickley is at 83.1%. His best attribute was his ability to pull up from 3 ATB and from deep 3. That is something we seemed to have neutered a bit and I wish he would get back to it as when he hits those shots it gives soooo much room to our other guys

I’m all for Iq taking deep threes in the flow of the offense. I’m against iq taking 3’s with no rebounders inside. I’m against iq taking 3’s when he could instead run the offense.

Fair point in terms of percentage of 3’s. I’m just observing the offense flowing far better with Shead running the show.

[Merit]

The 4 of them shoot very, very different 3 point looks though.

IQ + BI take a lot more pullup / off-balance / "higher difficulty" 3's. IQ is the only one on the team who has more than 10% of his 3's unassisted (and IQ is at 17% on that mark)

RJ/Barnes are almost all standstill c+s looks.

Great point. Agreed on the whole being better than the sum of its parts. I’m still waiting to see the Jak/IQ pick and roll synergy return.

IQ taking pull-up 3s unassisted should give you an idea of where (I feel) his teammates have placed him on the priority ladder. IQ tends to pull up and seek his shot a whole lot more than others, as a 6th man gunner should do.

His teammates place him as the best shooter on the team. The fact that he takes unassisted 3s is not proof that his teammates don't believe in his shot. He takes them because that is a huge part of his game and he's covered more closer than any other raptor along the perimeter. Defenders are less likely to leave IQ alone when anyone else attacks.

Yes, IQ is needed for spacing. I’m not saying his teammates don’t believe in his shot. They definitely do. I’m saying his teammates won’t pass to him because all he does is shoot instead of creating for others. I’m basing this off what I observed in the last few games when players would rather pass elsewhere on a fast break because they know they wouldn’t get it back, for example.

[Merit]

I hear you and that’s totally fair. I feel that he does bear an unfair burden for being traded for Luka.

That said, he’s at his Kyle Lowry pre-raptors stage now. It’s put up or shut up time. Can he change his shot selection? Can he improve his POA defensive intensity? Can he stay focused and committed on that end?

I mean, I think we understand that he has his limitations. He has some floor-raising value, but only so much. So what we need to do is see how he performs in a situation where he actually has offensive talent to leverage around him.

I would absolutely trade IQ for him. In fact IQ would be a great fit on the Hawks as a 6th man since neither Daniel’s nor NAW are amazing shooters, though NAW has improved there.

IQ would probably fit better on Atlanta in context than Trae at the moment, for sure. They need the shooting. NAW is actually a pretty good shooter, as long as it's C+S stuff and not live dribble. He has been that way for a long time. He is benefiting a lot when Atlanta runs and the way JJ operates in transition. He is primarily a transition/C+S player, but in heavy volume for such, which is kind of neat.

I like the IQ fit in Atlanta because they have two solid defenders to put beside him in NAW and Daniels. That 3 guard rotation is excellent.

That said, you clearly have a soft spot for Trae and his passing ability. That’s cool. Maybe you’ll be proven correct in time.

[tsherkin]

That said, you clearly have a soft spot for Trae and his passing ability. That’s cool. Maybe you’ll be proven correct in time.

I don't know if I would say I have a "soft spot" so much as I don't like arguments without context, and heavily-laden with hyperbole.

Trae isn't a superstar. Expecting that from him was always a mistake, but then bitching that he wasn't winning a lot of games without a team that had the talent to win a lot of games was also a mistake. His contract is a problem, his defense is a problem, and his inability to score effectively at the rim (and in general these past few seasons, at an efficient rate) is ALSO a problem.

But you put him in the right situation and he will definitely look better, because he IS a strong playmaker who draws a lot of fouls and drives a ton.

[Merit]

That said, you clearly have a soft spot for Trae and his passing ability. That’s cool. Maybe you’ll be proven correct in time.

I don't know if I would say I have a "soft spot" so much as I don't like arguments without context, and heavily-laden with hyperbole.

Trae isn't a superstar. Expecting that from him was always a mistake, but then bitching that he wasn't winning a lot of games without a team that had the talent to win a lot of games was also a mistake. His contract is a problem, his defense is a problem, and his inability to score effectively at the rim (and in general these past few seasons, at an efficient rate) is ALSO a problem.

But you put him in the right situation and he will definitely look better, because he IS a strong playmaker who draws a lot of fouls and drives a ton.

I don’t think it’s as heavily laden with hyperbole as you feel.

However, I still like Trae and yes, he could’ve had more around him. Then again, if he had more around him would he have had the ball in his hands? Kind of a chicken/egg thing.

Put it this way - Trae instead of IQ is a net win for Toronto and that seems pretty obvious, even with Trae’s warts.

[YogurtProducer]

Great point. Agreed on the whole being better than the sum of its parts. I’m still waiting to see the Jak/IQ pick and roll synergy return.

IQ taking pull-up 3s unassisted should give you an idea of where (I feel) his teammates have placed him on the priority ladder. IQ tends to pull up and seek his shot a whole lot more than others, as a 6th man gunner should do.

His teammates place him as the best shooter on the team. The fact that he takes unassisted 3s is not proof that his teammates don't believe in his shot. He takes them because that is a huge part of his game and he's covered more closer than any other raptor along the perimeter. Defenders are less likely to leave IQ alone when anyone else attacks.

Yes, IQ is needed for spacing. I’m not saying his teammates don’t believe in his shot. They definitely do. I’m saying his teammates won’t pass to him because all he does is shoot instead of creating for others. I’m basing this off what I observed in the last few games when players would rather pass elsewhere on a fast break because they know they wouldn’t get it back, for example.

I think this is very much looking to far into something that isn't really there.

[tsherkin]

I don’t think it’s as heavily laden with hyperbole as you feel.

That remark had specific posts in mind, not the broader discussion.

Put it this way - Trae instead of IQ is a net win for Toronto and that seems pretty obvious, even with Trae’s warts.

It's an interesting thought, anyway, and if we don't extend him in advance, there is the option to keep it low-risk in terms of duration.

[WuTang_CMB]

Let's see if Wizards are dumb enough. Travis schnell come on down

[Merit]

His teammates place him as the best shooter on the team. The fact that he takes unassisted 3s is not proof that his teammates don't believe in his shot. He takes them because that is a huge part of his game and he's covered more closer than any other raptor along the perimeter. Defenders are less likely to leave IQ alone when anyone else attacks.

Yes, IQ is needed for spacing. I’m not saying his teammates don’t believe in his shot. They definitely do. I’m saying his teammates won’t pass to him because all he does is shoot instead of creating for others. I’m basing this off what I observed in the last few games when players would rather pass elsewhere on a fast break because they know they wouldn’t get it back, for example.

I think this is very much looking to far into something that isn't really there.

It’s definitely a small sample size. I’m sharing my observations of what actually happened on court though. And you could be right. I’m not in the locker room to know. What I do know is that they’ve really been speaking to Shead’s leadership abilities and I haven’t heard anything about IQ’s. that’s not to say he’s not a leader - because again, I don’t know. I do know that he isn’t spoken of as one and I haven’t heard too much about him from the FO in general.

Could just be me though *shrug*.

I like iq with Jak. And I like what iq does for our team in terms of shooting. He’s our player so I’ll keep cheering for him.