Bargnani: All Skill...No Hustle?

[Mr. Perfect]

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Uhhh...I don't think many of us wanted to trade Bosh...so calm down.

He hasn't been pampered as much as he has been held back by the success of the team and the quality at his position (Bosh and Rasho).

Last year, he probably needed to start earlier than he did, and would have, but cost himself with the appendicitis that derailed the time he could have been adjusting to starting last year.

People sneer at Rasho..but he shuts down Dwight Howard on the regular.

Whatever, go drool over some dunkers on another team.

Quality at his position? He's competing for minutes with Rasho, Baston and Humphries. Those players are hardly world-beaters. BC and Maurizio have done everything they could to make sure no one is competing with Andrea for minutes. Yet, he just continues to stink up the joint, and Sam just cannot afford to keep a liability out there especially if we're fighting for a playoff spot.

Rasho is a nice solid center, but no way should a #1 overall pick be outperformed by him. Maybe some of your expectations are just too low, but when you draft someone with the first pick in the draft, you don't want to see them being outplayed by a backup center with career averages of 7 and 5.

Lamarcus Aldridge wasn't handed the keys, he had to prove himself by competing with Randolph, Przybilla and Jamaal Magloire for minutes. Which he did, and the Blazers management had the utmost confidence in him and gave away a 20/10 player in Randolph.

Kobe was stuck behind an all-star Eddie Jones, Michael Redd was getting limited burn behind Ray Allen. Jermaine O'Neal didn't see the day of light in Portland. Andrew Bynum, who is significantly better than Andrea by leaps and bounds, is getting similar minutes on the season.

I'm tired of hearing these poor excuses being made for Andrea. The NBA is a man's league, if he wants to be pampered and be handed everything he can take the first flight back to Italy. Andrea needs to earn his minutes just like anyone else out their, but he hasn't. So quite frankly, he doesn't deserve those minutes.

[The_Hater]

You know what I see?

I see him one step from the rebound but letting rebound stealers Moon and Bosh get his board

Those dam ball hogs! Don't they know that every rebound goes to our designated rebounding machine?!!

By the way, Mr. 'barely any touches' is 3rd on the team in shot attempts per minute. And with TJ out, he's currently 2nd among those in the lineup. I guess we should make this 39% shooter our #1 option so that he gets more touches? Or maybe that ballhog Bosh has been stealing his passes?



Regardless, you've given this board enough great stuff here to prolong this thread fo a couple more days. Well done!

[youreachiteach]

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Those dam ball hogs! Don't they know that every rebound goes to our designated rebounding machine?!!

By the way, Mr. 'barely any touches' is 3rd on the team in shot attempts per minute. And with TJ out, he's currently 2nd among those in the lineup. I guess we should make this 39% shooter our #1 option so that he gets more touches? Or maybe that ballhog Bosh has been stealing his passes?



Regardless, you've given this board enough great stuff here to prolong this thread fo a couple more days. Well done!

Thanks for the compliment. While you're at it, how many shots in totality has he taken the last five games?


Right. You get back to me on that. And even though he's an offensive player, I guess he should stop "jacking" his nine shots a game. What a black hole.

I'm not saying they "steal" his boards deliberately, but their natural athleticism does lend itself to getting boards they really don;t need to.

Andrea is a center. He doesn;t get his boards on quicks. He will improve.

That is all.

And by the way, in no way did I suggest he become the number one option. I said "more touches". Learn to read.

[The_Hater]

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If you look up the stats the difference between with bargs or without Bargs is 0.5 Rebounds per 48 minutes. That half a rebound per game willl surely win us the game.
So I guess do your homework before you use stats or shut up please.

PS I am more concerned of his shot not dropping and I can see it is clearly fear of getting pulled.

Nice try.

The difference is 0.5 OFFENSIVE rebounds per game. And if you add in the defensive rebounds, we're 2.8 per game worse with him on the floor. That's 3.3 in total. And that's rebounds per 100 possessions, not per 48 minutes.

And considering every 48 minute game has far more than 100 possessions (approximately 160-165, we're actually about 5.5 rebounds per 48 minutes worse with Bargs on the floor.

We're already a below average rebounding team with him on the bench and we give up an extra 5.5 possessions per 48 minutes when he's on the floor. (not to mention that he's been twice as bad a rebounder since December 1st than he was back in November).

How you possibly have assumed that 0.5 was correct when the stats clearly show that Rasho and Hump are both several boards per 48 minutes better?

EDIT: I think that I just underestimated possessions per game at 165. I think that's actually FGA's per game which is different. Possessions are higher. Who knows this for sure?

[Tommy Gun]

[quote="The_Hater"][/quote]

LOL@ the clown AB7 telling me to do my homework or shutup and then getting this badly owned

[Kordic27]

[quote="youreachiteach"][/quote]

This feels like it's going down the ugly route of immature name calling, but I would like to point out that it does feel like this 'stealing rebounds' is a bit of an unlikely excuse. I mean, Rasho gets more rebounds in less minutes than Bargs, and nobody would accuse him of being athletic.

If I was Sam, I would tell Bargs that his new and only concern in getting boards, and that he's not allowed to take a shot from more than 6 feet from the rim. Try that for a few games, see if there's any improvement.

The thing about a 7 footer who can shoot the three... you kind've assume that the three is a bonus to rebounds, post ups, and blocks.

[Guy Smiley]

It would be quite interesting to see if Bargnani is a money/contract season type player. The possibility is there and we just might see the rewards next season.

[youreachiteach]

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This feels like it's going down the ugly route of immature name calling, but I would like to point out that it does feel like this 'stealing rebounds' is a bit of an unlikely excuse. I mean, Rasho gets more rebounds in less minutes than Bargs, and nobody would accuse him of being athletic.

If I was Sam, I would tell Bargs that his new and only concern in getting boards, and that he's not allowed to take a shot from more than 6 feet from the rim. Try that for a few games, see if there's any improvement.

The thing about a 7 footer who can shoot the three... you kind've assume that the three is a bonus to rebounds, post ups, and blocks.

You just said it yourself...a seven footer who canshoot the three. That is what he is. It's not a bonus. He needs, basically, to be adequate in the other categories to become an excellent player.

Yeah, I get the traditionalists don't like it. It doesn't mean there isn't a value, or that the value doesn't open the floor for others, say, like CB4 in the playoffs.

[The_Hater]

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You just said it yourself...a seven footer who canshoot the three. That is what he is. It's not a bonus. He needs, basically, to be adequate in the other categories to become an excellent player.

Yeah, I get the traditionalists don't like it. It doesn't mean there isn't a value, or that the value doesn't open the floor for others, say, like CB4 in the playoffs.

While I don't think that being 'adequate' in every other area would make him an excellent player, it would make him pretty dangerous.

The problem that you and others don't seem to be grasping right now is that he's nowhere close to adequate in most areas right now. When you're dead last in rebounding amongst bigs, that's a long way from adequent. Rasho is adequete, Bargs is awful.

He's also not an adequete shot-blocker for his size, or adequete at taking care of the ball (TO's) or adequete at scoring in the post. Hell, right now his shooting hasn't even been adequete as he only shot 29% for the month of December.

It's nice to paint a rosy picture of a player you like, but you went so far overboard in your post people can't take any single point you made seriously. And there were a couple of decent points in there.

[Kordic27]

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You just said it yourself...a seven footer who canshoot the three. That is what he is. It's not a bonus. He needs, basically, to be adequate in the other categories to become an excellent player.

Yeah, I get the traditionalists don't like it. It doesn't mean there isn't a value, or that the value doesn't open the floor for others, say, like CB4 in the playoffs.

I guess what I mean is, a 7 footer who can shoot the three is only beneficial is he makes use of being a 7 footer. ie. If he rebounds and blocks and and posts up.

A 7 footer who can shoot three, but who doesn't rebound, block, or post up, is just a dude who can shoot the three.

What's kind've interesting is that, if Bosh, Bargs, Kapono, Parker, and Calderon are on the floor, Bargs is the 4th best three point shooter. He'd be 5th, but Bosh hasn't taken enough threes to be eligible for comparison.

[youreachiteach]

[quote="The_Hater"][/quote]

I don't know, perhaps I am overoptimistic. That never killed anybody (yet...except on the RealGMboard)


I simply feel he has the physical base to improve and enough athleticism to get it done eventually.

We'll see. I've even given a timeline for his development curve--after next offseason.

He either starts playing better by then or I'm wrong, simple as that.

Edit: I know his numbers are awful right now....really awful on the rebounding side, but development time is rarely pretty. He has also sufffered knee problems, which have contributed to his poor play all around and confidence. I hope to see more progress as the season wears on. As other posters have mentioned, he is only now starting to look as good as he did last year, which I think is because of the benching and injury.

In any event, I'll concede he needs to drastically improve his numbers.

[alfie123]

It's been a few days and a few games from my original post, but have any people changed their stance on Bargs?

He still looks like he could give a damn about getting boards or hustling/doing little things.

[mihaic]

[quote="The_Hater"][/quote]
That stat is %. The raps average 100 reb / game according to you, and they also play Bargs the whole game?

You and math are like... I will let someone else continue

PS
http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR13D.HTM
Quote from the page:
On Court / Off Court stats
Many stats are shown on a 'per 48 minute' basis
Only the first three stats are in fact per 100 possesions if you notice. The % ones cannot be per 100 possesions, that would be virtually impossible to calculate.

You too do your homework, when you stop hating

[mihaic]

To clarify my position, Bargnani does not play well but the effect of him playing like crap seems to somehow be compensated by the rest of the team. That is my opinion and it seems to be confirmed via stats. Just look at onn/off court for Humphries to compare.

Bargnani

http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR13D.HTM
Hump
http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR10D.HTM

I can only dream of him actually hitting his shots and improve his RbR. In fact I still believe he will do it, but it is slower than I thought

However people here make it look like it is the end of the world when in fact the impact to team stats is not so high.

And to tommy gun, why are you so cheap to call me a clown. You have no clue about those stats but are surely quick to call people names. You should stop that for your own sake. If you do not understand statistics shut up at least.

And hater is just hater. he tries to force his point even if he is not right.

[alfie123]

Im going to keep bumping this thread every so often to see if his demeanour changes at all at any point.

At this point in the season...it hasnt.

Still lacks hustle, even Leo made a statement about that last night against the pistons.

This dude is looking like a "potential" player for his entire career