So how do we reach the level Detroit is at?

[ruckus]

The_Original_Baller, I agree with your statement 100 percent. B.C. is not good for this franchise to this point. Everything he has done since last season has basically been lateral. I would swap Dumars with B.C. in a blink of an eye.

Because the team that Babcock put together would have won 47 games last year.

Basically, all they need is time and a reworking of players around the core group. It has everything to do with experience. Look at Billups. He is not the same player he was 4-5 years ago. Look at Tayshaun. He has grown into his role on the team. Look at the way Rip evolved his offense from when he was with the Wizards.

If we just give Bargs time to develop, TJ time to get healthy, and the core time to grow together, this team will be just fine.

Well, that and more cowbell.

[The_Original_Baller]

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Because the team that Babcock put together would have won 47 games last year.

Basically, all they need is time and a reworking of players around the core group. It has everything to do with experience. Look at Billups. He is not the same player he was 4-5 years ago. Look at Tayshaun. He has grown into his role on the team. Look at the way Rip evolved his offense from when he was with the Wizards.

If we just give Bargs time to develop, TJ time to get healthy, and the core time to grow together, this team will be just fine.

Well, that and more cowbell.

No way i'm buying that. Billups was ALWAYS a good defensive player. Over time and because of the team he's on, he went from a good to an excellent defensive player. Prince was ALWAYS an EXCELLENT defensive stopper, he got his first major recognition as an NBA "star" when they put Prince on Kobe in the FINALS and the Pistons won the championship. RIP has improved offensively over time, he's probably the weakest defensive player on the Pistons but his offense offsets his defensive liabilities and overall i still think RIP is a much better and more active defender than Parker or Jose ever will be so where does that leave us?

The only defensive players we have is Moon, Bosh, TJ and Rasho and we all know Barganni has to start ahead of Rasho and i think people here will have a heart attack if TJ gets his starting role back when he's healthy and playing well. I hate the composition of our team, it's all wrong.

[Rasheeed!!!]

I don't think the Raps have the personnel to become elite at the moment. Bosh, Bargnani, Kapono, Calderon, Garbajosa.....too many inadequate defenders in the rotation.

Obviously keep Bosh, and Calderon looks pretty good but other than that some significant moves need to be made. Raps still have glaring needs at SG and SF. Current players would make for a nice bench IMO. Bargnani is soft, and most likely always will be. His perfect role would be as a scorer off the bench.....bad pick IMO.

A long way to go, but the team has enough assets to make something happen.

[The_Original_Baller]

I don't think the Raps have the personnel to become elite at the moment. Bosh, Bargnani, Kapono, Calderon, Garbajosa.....too many inadequate defenders in the rotation.

Obviously keep Bosh, and Calderon looks pretty good but other than that some significant moves need to be made. Raps still have glaring needs at SG and SF. Current players would make for a nice bench IMO. Bargnani is soft, and most likely always will be. His perfect role would be as a scorer off the bench.....bad pick IMO.

A long way to go, but the team has enough assets to make something happen.

A true opinion from a fan that watches a real team play. I completely agree, we don't have the right players to win a championship. It has nothing to do with the players needing to grow together and more to do with the players needing to play defense, grow some balls and toughen up. BC is not getting the right players for this team, he's not listening to his coaches needs (we need toughness), BC isn't even listening to his franchise player (we need a banger.....and then he drafts Andrea...come onnnnnn). BC is overrated.

[Death Knight]

Playing together for 3-4 years.

This is a misconception that people have. People think that teams like the Pistons and Spurs are playing good because they have been together for many years. Truth is, they didn't just start to win now.............they started to win as soon as they got together. Take a look at the Pistons.



It was during the 2002-2003 season those most of those guys got together and they started to win immediately. It's not like they were sucking playing 3-4 years together and just started to play well right now. Fact is, talent wins in the NBA. Those players from Detroit were talented players from day one, and they were able to start winning in their first year together.

The Raptors just aren't talented enough. This same group can play together for 10+ years and they are still going to be a mediocre team hanging around 500. Either this team aquires talent from outside sources, or they have internal development and improvement (ie. Bargnani).

[ImissJordan]

Excellent post

QFT, my man.

[AfricanSensation]

It has nothing to do with playing together for years. They got Sheed and 4 month later they were the NBA champs and went to game 7 of the finals the following year before Big Ben started getting old.

From the moment they put 5 quasi-all stars on their team they became a contender, just like Boston and their 3 superstars or Miami after getting Shaq or Phoenix with Nash. So if we want to be a contender we know what to do...

[Death Knight]

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QFT, my man.

WTH? I never quoted my own post and said excellent post to my own post...Are you trying to mock me or something?

[ImissJordan]

WTH? I never quoted my own post and said excellent post to my own post...Are you trying to mock me or something?

No, sir. I just figured I'd pay you compliment while trying to minimize page space.

[C.Boshly]

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The only defensive players we have is Moon, Bosh, TJ and Rasho and we all know Barganni has to start ahead of Rasho and i think people here will have a heart attack if TJ gets his starting role back when he's healthy and playing well. I hate the composition of our team, it's all wrong.

Since when is TJ a defensive player?

I seem to recall him getting burned so badly in the playoffs last year that Calderon started eating into his minutes. Not that Calderon did much better but TJ was a huge liability on defense in that series.

I love TJ but he is not a good defender except in the right situation. TJ will always have weaknesses defensively because of his size.

[Death Knight]

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Since when is TJ a defensive player?

I seem to recall him getting burned so badly in the playoffs last year that Calderon started eating into his minutes.

I love TJ but he is not a good defender except in the right situation. TJ will always have weaknesses defensively because of his size.

TJ is actually a good perimeter defender, but that's about it.

[dacrusha]

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Since when is TJ a defensive player?

I seem to recall him getting burned so badly in the playoffs last year that Calderon started eating into his minutes.

I love TJ but he is not a good defender except in the right situation. TJ will always have weaknesses defensively because of his size.

TJ opposition efg% = .397
Jose opposition efg% = .551

[The_Hater]

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Since when is TJ a defensive player?

He's not. He's better than Jose and because of that, some people are starting to think that this is suddenly a strength. They're both pretty weak.

And you are correct that New Jersey exploited him badly in the playoffs last season.

On the flip side, the best man to man defender on the roster is Carlos Delfino and he wasn't even mentioned in that post.

[C.Boshly]

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TJ opposition efg% = .397
Jose opposition efg% = .551

I am not talking about Jose's defense. I am talking about TJs. My post is in response to Original Ballers post. When you talk about defensive players in the league TJs name doesn't normally come up.

But hey, maybe you are watching different games than me.

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He's not. He's better than Jose and because of that, some people are starting to think that this is suddenly a strength. They're both pretty weak.

And you are correct that New Jersey exploited him badly in the playoffs last season.

On the flip side, the best man to man defender on the roster is Carlos Delfino and he wasn't even mentioned in that post.

Exactly.

[ziggy_stardust]

This team reminds of the Cavs teams of the late 80s/early 90s.

They were an up and coming team that looked like they were going to have a bright future, and indeed they had some regular season success, but they never did much during the playoffs. And they were very soft, just as this team is.

[99 Problems]

I've started to suspect this current collection of players will never get anywhere even if we let them stay together for 4-5 years like Detroit. Its all about roster balance, we clearly do not have a balanced roster defensively or even offensively... Detroit has an excellent balance of offense and defense on its entire team, and every player has a defined role...Its apparent that for us it starts with Bargs at C, probably the worst combination of a player and his skills at a position since the Celtics tried to play Ben Wallace at SG as a rookie....

Most of the guys we're starting now-Moon, AP, Bargnani- would all be coming off the bench on most teams as they don't bring much to the game at this point other than one-dimension and they are plainly not good enough for a contending team... TJ is probably our 2nd best player, but he's too much of a defensive liability due to his size, and helping out on his man messes up our defense... Jose is also a pretty bad defender, and needs a talented 2 guard to take the 'offensive play creation' pressure off of him... We also have a very questionable coach who seems to have 2 plays in his playbook, a lack of understanding of strategy, and completely inept at responding to something the other team is doing quickly...

The only alternative to a more balanced roster which would allow us to keep most of the current players is to somehow acquire a dominant player who could offset a lot of the weaknesses everybody else has.. I'm talking about a superstar perimeter player...

While everybody advocates waiting to let this group grow, I think if we want to become true contenders, we have to have the pieces in place as soon as possible, and then let them grow together.. At this point we're not even sure if these are the right pieces...

[Denisaur9]

High Risk high reward, they took a risk on Rasheed got him for cheap becasue of his attitude, but they were confident enough in their coaching and personal to keep him in order and it worked...same wit h McDyess, they got him on the cheap becasue of his injury history and hes been healthy since, Billups jumped around several team they got him, showed they had confidence in what he brought, and it paid off......Not to mention a trade that some people questioned, trading an all star in Stackhouse for a player who not many knew in Hamilton and it payed off.


Overall grat management and Coaching and some luck