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OT - Magic about Vince: "It's Over"

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Post#61 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:54 pm

I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

He's slowed down/lost some athletic ability, but saying "it's over" for a guy averaging 21, 5, and 5 is pretty bold imo.

Sure, he hasn't been as aggressive as he can be several games this year, but that seems to be a team wide problem for the Nets, for whatever reason.

And don't forget that before the season started Frank talked about how he wanted to spread the offense around more this season, more motion and that type of thing....instead of running a lot of isos for Vince. So, that has dropped his fgs per game significantly, and contributed to his lower scoring numbers.

It's not even like he's having a horrible season statistically. His ppg are down a couple, but his rebounding is exactly at his career average, and his assists and fg% are both above his career average.

edit: I kinda laughed when they showed his dunk contest clips last night and then seem astonished that he wasn't pulling dunks like that off on the fast break...I mean, that contest was 8 years ago, 8 years worth of wear and tear on the knees of a high jumper like that is going to take a toll on them, no matter who you are.
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Post#62 » by GideonRapfan » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:35 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:I agree with most of the comments in this thread.



As someone who watches the Nets (I assume) fairly regularly, do you see any hope of this team improving through coaching or a change in the style of play?

Or do you think a personnel change is the only way up (or down, then up) for this team?
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Post#63 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:49 pm

GideonRapfan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



As someone who watches the Nets (I assume) fairly regularly, do you see any hope of this team improving through coaching or a change in the style of play?

Or do you think a personnel change is the only way up (or down, then up) for this team?


To be honest, I've lost interest in this team, I've only watched maybe about 15 games this season, if that. I wasn't even planning on watching much of yesterday's game, but then it turned into a pretty good one.

I don't know, in almost every game I've watched this year, they have come out super flat. It seems like every game they are down somewhere between 5-10 points halfway through the first quarter. Frank is a good coach overall imo, but it appears that they have pretty much tuned him out.

But, with that said, I think they need some change in the roster. Even when they were playing good, VC and RJ just never seem to quite fit together (imo anyways). They seem to get along fine off the court and all that, but I don't know, maybe it's jsut because they play the same position. I've always thought it would be in the Nets best interest to to trade one of them for a good big man.


And then there's krstic, I have no idea what's going on with him. he played a few games early in the season, and now he just had had his first workout in a long time. So, I'm not holding my breath for him coming back.

Boone and Williams have impressed me, but they are so young.

It jsut seems like the team lacks a certain "fire", and unlike past seasons, I can't see this team just flipping some switch and going on a big run.
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Post#64 » by MjM2xTreMe » Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:50 pm

I remember people calling Vince a mama's boy. My question is do you think VC being a mama's boy plays a role in his competitive mind?
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Post#65 » by MJ23DREAMER » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:13 pm

WE ALL KNOW THE HISTORY OF WINCE!!

ENOUGH SAID!!!

WHY ARE YOU SHOCKED.
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Post#66 » by Sik_Wit_It » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:33 pm

Wince will be Wince...Magic said it best. He just can't do it anymore. His game needs to be played above the rim, to open up his outside game.

With no heart and soul, Wince should just hang em up.











































F***in PUNK.
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Post#67 » by Sik_Wit_It » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:35 pm

He actually looks like he should be playing in a Rec. league or something. But even there, the possibility of injury is still the same. :rofl:
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Post#68 » by wade2bosh » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:42 pm

Being a consistent 20 5 and 5 guy is still good.
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Post#69 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:51 pm

Sik_Wit_It wrote:He actually looks like he should be playing in a Rec. league or something. But even there, the possibility of injury is still the same. :rofl:


But when's the last time he had a significant injury? (other than missing 5 games with an ankle sprain, which I wouldn't call significant)
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Post#70 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:53 pm

Sik_Wit_It wrote:Wince will be Wince...Magic said it best. He just can't do it anymore. His game needs to be played above the rim, to open up his outside game.

With no heart and soul, Wince should just hang em up.



What does that even mean? He's still scoring at a good percentage, rebounding, and has good assist numbers. Clearly his game doesn't need to be played above the rim in order for him to be effective.

You guys are acting like he's scoring 12 ppg on 30% shooting or something.....Bosh, for example, is scoring 1.1 more ppg and shooting only 2% higher (which isn't much at all, especially considering their positions) than him.


Look, is he having a great season? Nope. But, he's still far above the average player in this league.

And thats both stats wise and impact wise. GS threw a double team at him almost every time he touched the ball in the second half last night, almost immediately.....you just don't do that against "average" players.
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Post#71 » by EnigmaticProblem » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:55 pm

I would love to have Vince back on the Raptors. He's exactly the type of player we need at the 2/3.
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Post#72 » by TruWarrior » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:07 pm

As some of you have said im not shocked what was said but who said in magic....if it was chuck it would of been totally expected

did vince turn down an invitation to Magic's annual charity game or something sheesh
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Post#73 » by Sik_Wit_It » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:19 pm

[quote="jaymeister15"][/quote]

LOL


I'd rather watch curling than a NJ Nets game. Wince is just tough to watch. Even his ex-wife couldn't stand looking at him.
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Post#74 » by bballin » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:25 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:I agree with most of the comments in this thread.

He's slowed down/lost some athletic ability, but saying "it's over" for a guy averaging 21, 5, and 5 is pretty bold imo.

Sure, he hasn't been as aggressive as he can be several games this year, but that seems to be a team wide problem for the Nets, for whatever reason.

And don't forget that before the season started Frank talked about how he wanted to spread the offense around more this season, more motion and that type of thing....instead of running a lot of isos for Vince. So, that has dropped his fgs per game significantly, and contributed to his lower scoring numbers.

It's not even like he's having a horrible season statistically. His ppg are down a couple, but his rebounding is exactly at his career average, and his assists and fg% are both above his career average.

edit: I kinda laughed when they showed his dunk contest clips last night and then seem astonished that he wasn't pulling dunks like that off on the fast break...I mean, that contest was 8 years ago, 8 years worth of wear and tear on the knees of a high jumper like that is going to take a toll on them, no matter who you are.


All you are doing is making excuses for the man when the fact of the matter is he is all but finished being a difference maker in this league. One of the biggest things I hate about visiting sports boards around the net is because of people like you that look at stats and come to the conclusion if a player is good or bad or will develop or not.

Magis Johnson is a legend, Charles Barkley is a legend, they both are hall of famers who played the game. These guys dont read box scores and check out player stats to see if a player is washed up, struggling or not struggling, they watch the game and give observations with their eyes. Ive watched basketball for 25 years, i dont need to look at stats to tell you if Vince Carter or any other player is done or not or goodd or not or has potential or not, I watch him play and i can concur with Magic and Charles and the rest of the media market that he is without a doubt on the decline and basically an avg NBA player at this point.

The game is not about stats, stats are for fantasy leagues not player analysis. This guy has maybe the best pg in NBA history of the nba and a rock solid player in Rj playing along side him and he cant get it done. Carter has been on the decline for several years now and despite what the stats say it was evident to all in the NBA world and most knowledgable fans.

Vince Carter hasnt been a difference maker in this league on a consistent basis for about 4-5 years now and each and every year a part of his game disappears. He no longer is explosive, he no longer can put up 50 on any given night, he no longer can defend or stay with the young speedy players of the NBA, his body looks about 50 years old, he fails to raise his game when his team needs it most, he continues to look disinterested on the court and at times all but looks defeated in life and in the game.

I said two years ago Vince Carter will shortly become Jerry Stackhouse, which is a 6th man type player on a very good team if he is lucky enough to find a team to be 6th man on and today I look at Vince Carter and I am proud to say I was spot on as within 1-2 years thats all he is going to be.

I never liked Vince Carter but that doesnt mean what I typed above is pure hatred as even though I never liked him for his attitude and demeanor on the court even when he was younger I still rerspected his game the first few seasons in Toronto. But after his injuries way back when he has never been the same despite the stats and he has continued to be on teams that either had horrible regular season records or teams that got bounced in the first round of the places and became treadmill teams

Vince Carter's career has been a major failure and its because he never reached the level he could have because of a pizss poor attitude, terrible work ethic and a lack of respect for the game and fans.

Im thankful my kids were to young to become Vince Carter fans because it would be a crying shame to have them look up to a pro athlete like this, he is everything that I stand against in life and I would never want my kid lookin up to someone like that.

Magic and Charles just stated the truth and when things like that are said by Magic you can take it to the bank because he is not the kind of man that calls players out everyday of the week.

Magic Johnson "Vince Carters knee's are gone, he is finished"

Charles Barkley "I couldnt have said it better"


You stats guys will never understand the game, the same goes for guys like Rudy Gay who fill up a stat sheet this year on an 11 win team and you all fill your pants with gluey type substances but the knowledgable people like BC will tell you his stats mean jack and he is only achieveing those stats by playin on a crap team and being given a green light to shoot as a #1 option, and those stats can be obtained by almost every NBA starter in the league if they were given the same oppritunity. Stats are garbage and for fantasy league junkies.

Some have said the greatest days in raptor history were vince carter playing here, resigning here but I maintain today and will always maintain the belief that the greatest day in Raptor history was the day his butt got shipped out.
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Post#75 » by The_Hater » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:28 pm

Both Vince and TMac seem to have slipped a level this season.
Ironically enough.
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Nurse is below average at best.
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I dont get how so many people believe in the raptors,they have zero to chance to win it all.


April 14th, 2019.
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Post#76 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:53 pm

bballin wrote:All you are doing is making excuses for the man when the fact of the matter is he is all but finished being a difference maker in this league. One of the biggest things I hate about visiting sports boards around the net is because of people like you that look at stats and come to the conclusion if a player is good or bad or will develop or not.


As I said, my comments were based on more than just stats. I assume you don't watch many Nets games, considering your dislike for Vince. For example, did you watch yesterday? Did you see GS sending a double team almost immediately basically everytime he touched the ball in the second half?

bballin wrote:Magis Johnson is a legend, Charles Barkley is a legend, they both are hall of famers who played the game. These guys dont read box scores and check out player stats to see if a player is washed up, struggling or not struggling, they watch the game and give observations with their eyes. Ive watched basketball for 25 years, i dont need to look at stats to tell you if Vince Carter or any other player is done or not or goodd or not or has potential or not, I watch him play and i can concur with Magic and Charles and the rest of the media market that he is without a doubt on the decline and basically an avg NBA player at this point.


Yes, they are legends....but that doesn't make them great analysts or evaluators. Last I checked Isiah was a legend too.

Perhaps he is on the decline, the guy is 30 years old. I'm not going to say his best years aren't behind him. But, he is not "basically an avg NBA player". That's just a fact. The average NBA player is far less effective thean him on the court.

bballin wrote:The game is not about stats, stats are for fantasy leagues not player analysis. This guy has maybe the best pg in NBA history of the nba and a rock solid player in Rj playing along side him and he cant get it done. Carter has been on the decline for several years now and despite what the stats say it was evident to all in the NBA world and most knowledgable fans.


So you just ignore stats completely, for your almighty analysis (which is clearly biased). His last couple seasons were very good seasons, again, not as good as his best season or two....but very good seasons for an NBA player.

bballin wrote:Vince Carter hasnt been a difference maker in this league on a consistent basis for about 4-5 years now and each and every year a part of his game disappears. He no longer is explosive, he no longer can put up 50 on any given night, he no longer can defend or stay with the young speedy players of the NBA, his body looks about 50 years old, he fails to raise his game when his team needs it most, he continues to look disinterested on the court and at times all but looks defeated in life and in the game.


lol, first, he has been a difference maker on the court for the last 4-5 years.

I'm not going to go through each season individually, but he was the main reason for a lot of NJ's success the last few seasons.



bballin wrote:I said two years ago Vince Carter will shortly become Jerry Stackhouse, which is a 6th man type player on a very good team if he is lucky enough to find a team to be 6th man on and today I look at Vince Carter and I am proud to say I was spot on as within 1-2 years thats all he is going to be.


That's debatable, but you have just as much evidence to support your view on it as me.

bballin wrote:I never liked Vince Carter but that doesnt mean what I typed above is pure hatred as even though I never liked him for his attitude and demeanor on the court even when he was younger I still rerspected his game the first few seasons in Toronto. But after his injuries way back when he has never been the same despite the stats and he has continued to be on teams that either had horrible regular season records or teams that got bounced in the first round of the places and became treadmill teams


Well they lost to the Eastern Conference Champs a few times in a row, and in the second round, not first.


bballin wrote:Vince Carter's career has been a major failure and its because he never reached the level he could have because of a pizss poor attitude, terrible work ethic and a lack of respect for the game and fans.

Im thankful my kids were to young to become Vince Carter fans because it would be a crying shame to have them look up to a pro athlete like this, he is everything that I stand against in life and I would never want my kid lookin up to someone like that.



To each their own. Is he the most competitive guy out there? nope. But, of all the professional athletes, I don't think he's that bad of a role model. A guy who values education, has a good relationship with his family, does a lot of charity, and is never in trouble with the law. Doesn't seem to be quite the devil you make him out to be.






And I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your "Holier than thou" post. You sound an awful lot like RJC right before he left. Maybe you guys should have a scout off, since apparantly the NBA teams are making a huge mistake by not employing you as a professional scout.
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Post#77 » by 99 Problems » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:59 pm

The end of that game last night, I don't know if you guys caught it, but during a break in the action they showed a closeup of VC for a LONG time, and the look he had on his face was... scary... like someone who didn't care about his life anymore... that looked suicidal, honestly... I've never seen anyone with that kind of face in a basketball game in my life...

Now I don't know if its just a lack of motivation or focus right now, but I would bet he's having off the court problems right now as well, maybe depression, since his wife left him and his team sucks right now, plus he's getting bashed nightly....
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Post#78 » by sh00n » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:18 pm

jaymeister15 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



To each their own. Is he the most competitive guy out there? nope. But, of all the professional athletes, I don't think he's that bad of a role model. A guy who values education, has a good relationship with his family, does a lot of charity, and is never in trouble with the law. Doesn't seem to be quite the devil you make him out to be.






And I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your "Holier than thou" post. You sound an aweful lot like RJC right before he left. Maybe you guys should have a scout off, since apparantly the NBA teams are making a huge mistake by not employing you as a professional scout.

Awesome post. Vince haters can say all they want about Vince only being an average player, but it's funny this average player would have our team over the hump right now. He wouldn't be the main guy, and he'd be motivated. I'd love to have average players posting the numbers he's posting in Toronto, that's for sure.
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Post#79 » by jaymeister15 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:26 pm

I just tried to edit my post, but hit the report button on someone elses by accident. So, for whichever mod sees that, ignore it, sorry about that.

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