Detroit Pistons: Perfect example of High Risk High Reward?

[Denisaur9]

Hey, I am a person who likes looking at sucesfull teams and the moves that made them the way they are and I came acros the pistons and I look back at their moves Over the past so many years that got them there core of players that made this team.

Chauncy Billups- Bounced around alot of teams including the Raptors, The GM and coach put trust in him and he produced.

Rip Hamilton- Traded an All Star in Stackhouse for Hamilton, Some people thought Washington stole Stackhouse away from Detroit.

Rasheed Wallace- everyone knew he was a great talent but a person who was an off-court distraction, they took a huge gamble on him, got him on the cheap due to his history.

Antonio McDyess- Signed him for cheap, becasue of his horrible injury History.

Both Prince and Maxiell Were late 1st rounders and both turned out good. Amir Johnson who is looking like a decent prospect was selected late 50's out of High School.

Both Hayes and Murray, who are both decent scorers signed for cheap.

So is this is an example of really Good luck? Or really Good mangement and Coaching, they took alot of chances that most teams wouldnt, and it payed of huge.

What do you guys think?

[Shaazzam]

I think Dumars just "gets" it. The guy was an unbelievable player who was a consummate, hard working, pro who won rings. Not being a superstar I think he understands the importance of guys being placed in the proper roles to succeed and the value of toughness, physical and mental, when combined with talent.

They have also had some excellent coaches in that organization with the three most recent being Carlisle, Brown and Saunders IIRC.

[LoneDust]

Antonio McDyess- Signed him for cheap, becasue of his horrible injury History.

Both Prince and Maxiell Were late 1st rounders and both turned out good. Amir Johnson who is looking like a decent prospect was selected late 50's out of High School.

Both Hayes and Murray, who are both decent scorers signed for cheap.

If they are signed for cheap, it's not risky. Good management results in successful playoff runs, which in turn create more signing opportunities for the management. You're seeing the result of a positive building cycle.

[The_Hater]

Dumar's biggest strength is that he's not afraid of fixing his mistakes quickly. Every GM will make a bad move from time to time but most GM's hold onto mistakes because they're either too afraid of what the reaction in the press will be or their egos are too large to admit the mistake to themselves. <insert favourite Isiah Thomas joke here>

Dumar's has had 3 high, first round picks that fell flat on their faces as rookies but he wasn't afraid to trade 2 of them immediately after that first season (Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves) and traded the other during his 3rd year (Darko).

And on the flip side of those mistakes, he's done very well and picking up nice bargains both in the draft (Prince, Okur, Delfino, Stuckey, Maxiell, A.Johnson) and in free-agency (B.Wallace, Billups, McDyess).

[Schad]

He has done well with the 'high risk' in trades, but with the exception of Darko, Dumars has been rather risk-adverse in his drafting patterns...yet still has unearthed some real gems. Prince and Maxiell were both four-year players and major contributors on well-respected collegiate teams, and Afflalo came out as a junior. Stuckey was a soph from a small school, but considered a polished player...even Dumars' failures (Cleaves and White) were top-notch NCAA players.

The common thread is that all of the players that Dumars has acquired (save White and Darko) are smart players; 'Sheed might be a hot-head, but he's a very intelligent player and a bright guy off the floor. On-court IQ goes a long way, and as Hater noted, when Dumars notes a flaw in his master plan, he does not hesitate to correct it.

Edited because proper grammar eludes me.

[magani]

Dumar's biggest strength is that he's not afraid of fixing his mistakes quickly. Every GM will make a bad move from time to time but most GM's hold onto mistakes because they're either too afraid of what the reaction in the press will be or their egos are too large to admit the mistake to themselves. <insert favourite Isiah Thomas joke here>

Dumar's has had 3 high, first round picks that fell flat on their faces as rookies but he wasn't afraid to trade 2 of them immediately after that first season (Rodney White and Mateen Cleaves) and traded the other during his 3rd year (Darko).

And on the flip side of those mistakes, he's done very well and picking up nice bargains both in the draft (Prince, Okur, Delfino, Stuckey, Maxiell, A.Johnson) and in free-agency (B.Wallace, Billups, McDyess).

I believe Ben wallace came in a sign and trade with Atkins in the Grant Hill move to Orlando. They were essentially throw-ins so that Orlando could maximize Grant's salary.

[Modern_epic]

You would be half right. Actually, not really even half. He was part of the Grant Hill deal, but every player in that deal was S&T, making it a free agency pick up, and they weren't throw-ins, because you don't sign throw-ins to long term deals.

[djsunyc]

remember, the pistons won 50 games with chucky atkins and stack as the starting backcourt.

but dumars has been very lucky with how things turned out, with billups and prince.

but one thing he did was build his team on defense and got a coach to instill it. so, although they may not have won a title, they still would've been competetive in the league b/c of their defense.

[djsunyc]

and let's not forget that 4 of their starting 5 were lotto picks.

[wade2bosh]

They are a tough defensive team, with good coaching as well...over this decade. 4 all star caliber players the year they won the title ..

[The_Hater]

Here's what happened with Ben Wallace and Grant Hill.

Hill announced that he was going to leave Detroit which gave the Piston's a ton of cap space. Because Orlando was going after Hill and Duncan (TMac followed), they renounced all their own free-agents including Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins.

Dumars went out and agreed to free-agent contracts with Wallace and Atkins while the Magic negotiated with Hill. All 3 players could have been signed as free-agents but it was turned into a sign and trade so that Orlando could give Hill an extra year on his contract.

So while on paper it was officially a trade, they were all free-agents so in reality all 3 were free-agent signings.

[ldnk]

You could also make the argument that he just got lucky on some of those moves. With a guy like Billups it was all about maturity, but there is no guarantee that he becomes mature in Detroit. He didn't get any more opportunity than he did elsewhere, he just put it together there. I'm all for giving Dumars a lot of credit because he has built a team that is capable of being absolutely dominant on the court, and has been for a number of years now, but so often, those " high risk, high reward" moves are more about luck than anything else.

[RealGood]

I dont really see what was 'high risk' about any of those moves.

They have been rewarded for making smart and calculated decisions. They paid and invested very little to get the players you mentioned because they:
a. bought low
b. found diamonds in the rough

Darko was the only huge gamble, and that turned out to be a disaster. one could only imagine what a Carmelo, Wade or Bosh would look like on this team.

So to answer your question: No, they are not the perfect example of high risk, high reward. Not even close by my estimation.

[El Presidente]

Hey, I am a person who likes looking at sucesfull teams and the moves that made them the way they are and I came acros the pistons and I look back at their moves Over the past so many years that got them there core of players that made this team.

Chauncy Billups- Bounced around alot of teams including the Raptors, The GM and coach put trust in him and he produced.

Rip Hamilton- Traded an All Star in Stackhouse for Hamilton, Some people thought Washington stole Stackhouse away from Detroit.

Rasheed Wallace- everyone knew he was a great talent but a person who was an off-court distraction, they took a huge gamble on him, got him on the cheap due to his history.

Antonio McDyess- Signed him for cheap, becasue of his horrible injury History.

Both Prince and Maxiell Were late 1st rounders and both turned out good. Amir Johnson who is looking like a decent prospect was selected late 50's out of High School.

Both Hayes and Murray, who are both decent scorers signed for cheap.

So is this is an example of really Good luck? Or really Good mangement and Coaching, they took alot of chances that most teams wouldnt, and it payed of huge.

What do you guys think?

I don't think any of these qualify as risky moves. The only risky move they made was picking Darko which backfired.

Rip Hamilton was already good in Washington, MJ just likes Tarheels and wanted Stackhouse. Rasheed Wallace had some issues but he's always been a top-notch NBA player. McDyess has injury issues but he's always been a damn good player. Picking Prince and Maxiell as late first rounders is hardly a risk, that's like saying we risked picking Mo Pete at 16. That's just good drafting.

None of these "risks" come close to picking Bargnani #1. I think you might be reaching.

[Denisaur9]

You dont think tradign a perenial all star and what was at one point the face of their franchis in Stackhouse for at that point was an unknown player in Hamilton, wasnt risky?

How about bringing in a player that has been in trouble with the law with drugs, and been labeled a disruption, bringing him into what was already a good, thats not risky?

how about signing a player who was out for about two yrs with major knee surgery, ya signing him isnt risky?

A few of these moves could have very well have backfired

[The_Hater]

You dont think tradign a perenial all star and what was at one point the face of their franchis in Stackhouse for at that point was an unknown player in Hamilton, wasnt risky?

How about bringing in a player that has been in trouble with the law with drugs, and been labeled a disruption, bringing him into what was already a good, thats not risky?

how about signing a player who was out for about two yrs with major knee surgery, ya signing him isnt risky?

A few of these moves could have very well have backfired

Rip was far from unknown. A lottery pick that was coming off 18 and 20 ppg in his 2nd and 3rd seasons. He was 24 years old and had established himself as a solid NBA scorer.

The reason most people thought it was a risk is that Stack had just put up a career year (28/5/4). But Stack was 4 years older, had always been considered a bit surly and selfish and obviously Dumars figured he was selling high on him.

[SDM]

It all starts with Joe Dumars. As someone else has stated, he was a hard-working, glory-free fantastic player. And as a member of the Bad Boy Pistons, he saw first-hand how you can keep players who would be stars on other teams (Rodman, Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, Johnson, etc) happy by giving them solid roles.

When he got Ben Wallace, he knew he had potential to be a fantastic rebounder and shotblocker. He showed glimpses of it in Orlando. He knew Rip Hamilton could come off screens and knock down shots better than anyone outside of Reggie Miller. He knew Rasheed Wallace was a great man defender, with range on his shot. Those three players would be the nucleus of any great contender. However, it is in Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince that he deserves the most credit, though much of that credit is due to those two players never playing outside of their box. If you watch Billups now, the only thing he does differently in Detroit compared to his other stops, is play with confidence. He's not jacking up ill-advised shots. He's convinced he'll make them, if he jukes his defender off him. He's not going for the steal anymore, he's going for the stop, because he knows McDyess/Maxiel/Wallace/Wallace will get the ball. Prince, on the other hand, was a classic steal. He doesn't do any one thing spectacularly, he simply compliments and increases the play of his teammates. The glue guy.

Big bodies that can defend AND block shots AND rebound + one of those big bodies capable of hitting the odd shot + shooter who can heat up in a hurry + cool, collected, mature point guard + jack-of-all-trades player intent on helping out his team in an area in which they're lacking during any specific game = contender.

There's also a sense of structure in that organization that makes coaching these guys this way possible. Dumars is the boss. He's confident, ice cold, and professional. He can back up anything he says. His players remember him as the player who could score thirty, shut down his man, and not even get a mention on ESPN radio. He's somehow managed to take a team with individual stars and make them an incredible whole. As for the coaches? Who wouldn't want to coach a team of players hand selected by Joe Dumars? Who wouldn't want to step aside and listen to his advice about being low-key, utilizing players in certain situations, and stressing team over individual? I think a Carebear could coach his teams.

[Cassius]

The only risky moves Joe has taken are

1) Drafting Darko
2) Trading Darko for cap room to resign Big Ben
3) Signing Nazr to a five-year deal

Aside from the Rasheed trade, everything he's done has been pretty much ho-hum where people didn't think that there would be much of a difference.

The only people that complain about Rasheed are the ones who don't play with him. They gave up their own first, Milwaukee's, Chris Mills and Zelly Rebraca to get him. That's hardly a risk given Sheed's talent.

Two late firsts and filler for a malcontent, even Ron Artest, is a pretty good steal in my mind.

[The_Hater]

Yeah. The Rasheed move was actually quite low risk because Sheed was on an expiring contract and the Pistons gave up virtually nothing (a 1st round pick and scrubs) to get him. (I think they landed Mike James as their back-up PG in the deal too). If Sheed didn't work out, the Pistons could either let him walk in the summer or ship him off in a sign and trade.

It was a 3 way trade with the Celtics and Hawks and I remember when that deal went down it was pretty much universal agreed... 'What the hell are Atlanta and Boston thinking here?'