OT--Phil Jackson: VC not playing hard

[Guy Smiley]

Based on the comments I would have assumed Vince was playing like garbage while Kidd aka "Trade me now because I'm a pansy" was playing amazing.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708NJN.HTM

Carter
Prod Net +4.7
ON/OFF +9.8
Roland Rating +6.8

Kidd 75%
Prod Net +2.1
ON/OFF +6.0
Roland Rating +3.6

I will have to watch more Nets games to see if I can reconcile these numbers.

[Sik_Wit_It]

The end result is the only thing that matters. We've all watched enough Pu$$C games to conclude that he goes through the motions.

[asif9t9]

What makes this especially embarassing for VC is that he was called out by an opposing coach BEFORE a game!!!!! That's just NOT supposed to happen. Phil Jackson had every confidence he'd win that game, and VC could do nothing about it.

What a chump!

[Guy Smiley]

It sounds like you two know a lot more about Vince's game than I do.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you have seen this season?

I know his PPG are down but he seems to be matching his career FG% and holding his own rebounding and passing the ball. Where has his game really slipped?

[The_Hater]

Carter stopped playing aloooooong time ago. No heart. I don't know how the Nets or any team in the NBA would want this guy, for that much. He's a full-time chump.

JN.. Magic last night over the Nets(back-to-back..VC hahahahah).

It wasn't that long ago. His 3 previous seasons since going to Jersey have been right in line with his best Raptor years and Kidd and Frank were pushing the buttons to make sure he played defense too.

But I think along with Kidd's trade demands, so did his need to keep pushing Vince's buttons. It's sad that a player of Vince's talent needs to be pushed all the time in order to play hard but he just happens to be that guy.

[Guy Smiley]

It amazes me that a guy with such heart and heralded motivator like Kidd constantly quits on his teams and demands trades. Luckily for him he has his personal life together or else he would come off looking like a pansy.

[The_Hater]

It sounds like you two know a lot more about Vince's game than I do.

Would you be able to elaborate on what you have seen this season?

I know his PPG are down but he seems to be matching his career FG% and holding his own rebounding and passing the ball. Where has his game really slipped?

He's got a career low in PER of 17.5. By comparison, that's only a shade better than the shoddy effort he put up for 5 excruiating weeks in Toronto back in the fall of 2004.

It's seems to be a little slippage across the board rather than one noticeable factor. He has career low numbers in blocks, steals and 3FG%. He's not getting to the line as often. These things along with not getting as many shots off and an increase in assists perhaps tell us that his athleticism is slipping. Because it's not like NJ doesn't need his offensive contributions, they currently rank 25th in the league in offense.

[Birth of the Cool]

-= original quote snipped =-



It wasn't that long ago. His 3 previous seasons since going to Jersey have been right in line with his best Raptor years and Kidd and Frank were pushing the buttons to make sure he played defense too.

But I think along with Kidd's trade demands, so did his need to keep pushing Vince's buttons. It's sad that a player of Vince's talent needs to be pushed all the time in order to play hard but he just happens to be that guy.

I don't get this.

I've been following the Nets with VC and nothing from the games, footage or NJ beat reporters tells me that Kidd pushes VC's buttons. If anything VC is self-motivated (or lacking thereof). Kidd just plays his game and isn't vocal on or off the court except when he sulks to newspapers.

The most disappointing thing for me seeing Kidd game in / game out is his lack of leadership which somewhat surprised me. When VC went to the Nets Kidd said he would take the heat off VC but it's been completely opposite. When the Nets succeed Kidd takes alot of the glory but when the Nets are losing all eyes are on VC and it isn't Kidd protecting his teammate but Coach Frank or RJ. In fact, RJ is the most vocal leader on & off the court for the Nets which goes to show what a failure both VC & Kidd have been as 'leaders' of this team. RJ to me is the de-facto leader of this team and it's sad that he's put into that position.

Kidd's drama off the court (personal life, trade demands, criticism of the team, "migrane", etc) is also a constant distraction to the Nets. He brings drama to the Nets every year it seems.

All that being said it's no surprise that VC isn't the same player he was in previous years but if that's due to his ankle injury or the rapid decline of a "athletic" player that is still to be determined...

[cdel00]

Could the SMitch motivate VC?

[Guy Smiley]

There is no doubt that several years of NBA wear and tear will catch up to a player so they need to adjust their game. Some are better at making those adjustments than others.

Perhaps Vince is affected by the leader of the team who happens to be the engine of the offence. Each player needs to take responsibility for their own performance but when your PG's head is elsewhere and he also happens to be the captain of the ship it makes for a difficult working environment.

Just like we saw in Toronto, Vince isn't some superhero that can overcome everything so it is no surprise we are seeing some struggles when things are getting tough.

Despite all this it would appear Vince is still the best player on the team from a statistical standpoint which doesn't reconcile with the comments I have seen. There has been a drop off in his game but we will see if he turns it on post all-star break like he has a history of doing.

[ImissJordan]

There is no doubt that several years of NBA wear and tear will catch up to a player so they need to adjust their game. Some are better at making those adjustments than others.

Perhaps Vince is affected by the leader of the team who happens to be the engine of the offence. Each player needs to take responsibility for their own performance but when your PG's head is elsewhere and he also happens to be the captain of the ship it makes for a difficult working environment.

Just like we saw in Toronto, Vince isn't some superhero that can overcome everything so it is no surprise we are seeing some struggles when things are getting tough.

Despite all this it would appear Vince is still the best player on the team from a statistical standpoint which doesn't reconcile with the comments I have seen. There has been a drop off in his game but we will see if he turns it on post all-star break like he has a history of doing.

Don't you ever get tired of making excuses for Vince?

I mean, Phil Jackson's comment doesn't come as a surprise to anybody. Everyone this side of the Atlantic knows that Carter's approach to the game is best described as lackadaisical - irrespective of his statistical output. You really waste no opportunity to run to Vince's aid even though he is well-deserving of criticism.

Stop being an apologist. Your hero might be one of the most talented players I've ever witnessed, but it's clear to roughly 99.9 per cent of the universe that he is, without question, one of the biggest pansies in the NBA.

[Guy Smiley]

Don't you ever get tired of making excuses for Vince?

Actually no I'm not tired because jaymeister has carried the load for me.

I mean, Phil Jackson's comment doesn't come as a surprise to anybody. Everyone this side of the Atlantic knows that Carter's approach to the game is best described as lackadaisical - irrespective of his statistical output. You really waste no opportunity to run to Vince's aid even though he is well-deserving of criticism.

I know that Vince deserves his fair share of criticism but I'm not sure how a guy could laud Kidd and in the same breath bash Vince. Neither of these guys is perfect and in fact they are far from it like all humans are but I must confess I'm quite disappointed in what I have seen from Kidd. Like Vince, Jason can take over games and can will his team to victories but when the going gets tough the pansy starts crying. Actually, I would say Kidd has a longer and more disgruntled history than Vince but since he wasn't a Raptor that doesn't get the same play.

Stop being an apologist. Your hero might be one of the most talented players I've ever witnessed, but it's clear to roughly 99.9 per cent of the universe that he is, without question, one of the biggest pansies in the NBA.

His talent and achievements speak for themselves but I jump in where I see certain points being raised against Vince and then a blind eye is cast on those that have fallen short in that same area.

Vince isn't the biggest pansy in the world. Any starting C that gets applauded for grabbing 3 or more rebounds in a game is the hallmark of a true pansy.

To conclude, Phil doesn't always say what he means or uses his words as a motivational tactic. The only thing I agree with Phil on is that Kobe is not coachable. I just wish Phil called him a pansy in his book.

[99 Problems]

This Vince hate is sort of deserved, but I think most of it is bandwagon hate initiated by media personalities, and on this board just the old VC spite....

I just don't like how Kidd gets a free pass all the time when he's demanded trades and skipped a game... he should be criticized just as much....RJ is the only guy of the big three that I think is playing the right way....

If they could ever somehow trade VC, I think he'll be a much different player, like how Shaq is motivated now... just as long as the team is winning though...

[tb40]

They are both pansies, on and off the court, if you ask me, and no one asked me, so....whatever.

[emfive]

Considering what has transpired in his career I certainly have no love for VC's game. Yet this is all a bunch of hooey. Phil was asked a question and against all good reason attempted to answer it. He didn't say much really except that VC and Jason were not playing with the determination he expected. Why someone needs to start a thread and people need to take every opportunity to continue to bash VC is beyond me. Some here sound like jilted lovers. Let it go girls.

[The Laker Kid]

-= original quote snipped =-
The only thing I agree with Phil on is that Kobe is not coachable.

Is that why he's coaching him now?