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10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series

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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#41 » by soloxylo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:43 pm

I've never seen a coach get so many chances with a team, it's ridiculous. Four straight years of miserable, underwhelming playoff performances. We really got lucky last year, had Vogel not made the mistake that ultimately cost his job; Casey would've been fired last year. Masai has done due diligence with re-tooling this roster every year to meet the needs of Casey, what more could he really ask for. He hasn't been able to execute when it's needed most, we max out in the regular season every year then stumble into the playoffs with fake ORTG's as a top 5-10 offense; only to watch it fall apart in the playoffs. We're the only team that does this, it's pitiful.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#42 » by Vlade Divac » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:44 pm

Troubadour wrote:Nah, I'm good. I want DeRozan to stay, but the other two can find employment with one of the other 29 teams. No sense in handing out max contracts just for playoff appearances.


You are hilarious bifocal double-standard DeScrub's fanboy club member! So max contract we gave for your idol is for regular season? And that is ok?!?


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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#43 » by OAKLEY_2 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:45 pm

He who have long argument have week argument.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#44 » by Cool-Hand-Luke » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:49 pm

You have to fire Casey if you lose this series. He is lost on the offensive floor. His run and gun game is not working against a team that is clearly more athletic than us.

That being said, I'd be very interested to see this squad with a different coach. I think Casey lost them a long time ago. Too bad we have so many decisions to make this offseason. It's probably the most difficult point in Masai's career. I really hope they win this series and prove the haters wrong but that door is closing fast.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#45 » by Skeezo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:54 pm

Double Helix wrote:1) They've barely had time together as a trio….


We have also seen midseason trades that worked immediately (ie R.Wallace/Detroit). Secondly, we have 4 players (Two, who want to be paid more than 28m per each) that have been playing together for 4 years now. If they can’t get you past the 1st round on their own against a team playing two rookies in their starting line-up there’s bigger problems than giving more money and time to Ibaka to get acclimated.

Double Helix wrote:2) A coaching change could unlock more versatility for a playoff next year....


Not that I'm against replacing Casey, but you not only want MLSE to swallow 10m in salary guarantees to replace Casey but you also want them to additionally invest tens of millions in salary/luxury tax payments to bring back a potential 1st round loser? May I remind you that MLSE made 46m in profit last year, when Raps made the ECF with 10 home playoff dates. Just saying, you are throwing the money around pretty graciously here.

Double Helix wrote:3) Lowry, Derozan and Ibaka can all be traded later to other contenders if a coaching change and more time together doesn't seem to Improve things....


Let’s be clear, in a year (after you have spent all this money and what would be considered another failure), you honestly think that 32-year old Lowry being paid 30m+ over another 3-4 years is an asset? How much is proven-loser like Melo really worth in his 30s at 26m per? Sorry, but this is the same asset-management talk people gave me when we signed Carroll to 15m per year… Assets are only assets if other teams see the value…

Double Helix wrote:4) There's 6.25 months of regular season basketball and 41 home games…. Getting to enjoy 6.25 months of fun, winning regular season basketball to distract yourself from the bitter cold of winter a few times a week really that bad? ....


It is that bad when you know your team is fundamentally flawed and cannot perform in the playoffs… How good is that for National identity and confidence, that every time you arrive on a National stage you flop? Besides, it’s not like the Raptors play an aesthetically pleasing brand of basketball… Unless value deals can be signed for our FAs whereby they remain tradeable assets, then I’m cool with returning to a rebuilding era where there is actual hope.

Double Helix wrote:5) It's still super important, even in this new CBA, to In this era of player branding and social media we are going to have to be very careful about the franchise prospects we choose next....


This reason is even less of a concern now than ever… As you said the CBA is geared to keep players in their drafted city for 7-9 years with RFA. Longer, if they become a superstar and gain Supermax rights… Secondly, NBA players are making so much guaranteed money from the league now there is less of a concern for big markets for endorsements, hence why LA and New York can't sign anyone. It’s social media that is allowing guys to maximize their brand no matter where they are located... If someone wants to leave for weather/taxes there is nothing we will ever be able to do to change that (not all NBA teams can be placed in Texas/Florida).

Double Helix wrote:6) Allow the We the North Era to feel like a proper era. Next year would be 4.7 years since the Rudy Gay trade that started it all. Half a decade is a legitimate era worthy of discussion years into the future. 3.7 years is only slightly longer than Bruno Cabocolo's career...


Sorry DH, but you are reaching here… I can’t think of a worse reason to invest over 70m dollars on a per year basis in contracts than to keep a so-called marketing “era” going… However, the fact that you compare it to Bruno’s career who has thus far been the biggest waste of 8m (+ whatever other resources) I find ironic.

Double Helix wrote:7) Masai is the master of the retool…. Who knows what a package of JV + Cory Joseph could net us to help us in a future playoff run? ...


First, to be the master of something means you have had to prove consistent success… We have no championship, and neither does Denver… Re-tooling is another word for treadmilling if it leads nowhere… Secondly, a package of JV/Joseph gets you asset of cap-space which is what you are trying to accomplish if advocating resigning the lot of KL/SI/PP/PT

Double Helix wrote:8) Lowry has been unhappy with Casey for years. Maybe he's been right all along and maybe Lowry himself can be even better with a different coach? ...


Look as I said above, I’m not saying not to get rid of Casey, but not to appease Lowry, who has been proven to be a sulky, selfish, and attitude problem throughout his career with multiple coaches… Doing that is looking to give a player the Vince Carter treatment and we saw how that worked out for us.

Double Helix wrote:9) Corporate sponsorship has never been stronger for the team....


You have to show me the numbers to prove this is a reality than just listing a bunch or corporate names and saying their sponsorships are so much larger than the Primo Pasta and Pizza Pizza eras… The advertising money is there in Sports right now regardless, especially in the market the size of Toronto. Moreover, as you can see the attached article… The Raptors are making a greater percentage of their revenue from the guaranteed league revenue streams (TV deal) then they are on these marketing campaigns versus other teams. Looks like those premium brands aren’t helping as much as we think.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/baileybrautigan/2016/03/21/where-all-that-money-comes-from-nba-team-valuations-visualized/#5a52d9ba444f

Double Helix wrote:10) They may want to try and better time the tear down around the Leafs rising dynasty. The Leafs rise toward Stanley Cups will soak up all the corporate sponsors….. So, a hedge and one more year of assessment with a retool and a new coach may be what they think is best....


The Leafs still have 20-year wait list for season tickets and have over a million viewers more than the Raptors even when they have sucked… You honestly, think the Leafs have been losing corporate sponsorship/profit to the Raptors that they will now gain back because they are successful? Two different fanbases with vastly different demographics for certain advertisers to target... And again, you are asking the MLSE to make an extra investment of 40m-80m in salary/luxury tax next year vs this year when they only made 46m in profit last year making the ECF… That isn’t hedging your bet, that’s risky business.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#46 » by Latrell » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:02 pm

Double Helix wrote:1) They've barely had time together as a trio. We've seen other high profile midseason trades lead to some disjointed play in the past and there's been a lot written at the Sloan conference about the benefits of key players getting more time together to sharpen execution.

2) A coaching change could unlock more versatility for a playoff next year. Look at what the addition of Scott Brooks did for Washington. They missed the playoffs last year and suddenly a new voice and a new philosophy has them looking very strong again.

3) Lowry, Derozan and Ibaka can all be traded later to other contenders if a coaching change and more time together doesn't seem to Improve things. We moved to get bird rights and we have contract advantages over other teams. We can use those to ensure we have high profile assets on our roster that can be moved for future prospects or picks in the future, rather than losing them for nothing. You'd have 1 more season to assess, hedge and then pivot midseason and unload stars for assets.

4) There's 6.25 months of regular season basketball and 41 home games. The playoffs are always a thrill but there have been plenty of other regular season dynamos who didn't accomplish a ton in the playoffs. Is being the next of those and getting to enjoy 6.25 months of fun, winning regular season basketball to distract yourself from the bitter cold of winter a few times a week really that bad?

5) It's still super important, even in this new CBA, to In this era of player branding and social media we are going to have to be very careful about the franchise prospects we choose next. Would a guy like Lonzo Ball only be interested in using us for development and to force a trade out of here to a preferred warm weather destination? Giannis seems to be the next of a long line of low-maintence non-US born superstars. He doesn't seem to mind life in Milwaukee. Andrew Wiggins is another. He doesn't seem to mind life in Minnesota. It's going to be very important that the only non-US team drafts players with the character and loyalty of Derozan (but with more talent and impact) and avoids the franchise history of developing stars who want out just as their prime years are developing and the US media is speculating about how good they'd look on another team that's won titles before and has no tax and warmer weather.

6) Allow the We the North Era to feel like a proper era. Next year would be 4.7 years since the Rudy Gay trade that started it all. Half a decade is a legitimate era worthy of discussion years into the future. 3.7 years is only slightly longer than Bruno Cabocolo's career.

7) Masai is the master of the retool. If we can't make use of Valanciunas, and a new coach doesn't have a plan to maximize him, he gets moved and Poeltl moves up. Who knows what a package of JV + Cory Joseph could net us to help us in a future playoff run?

8) Lowry has been unhappy with Casey for years. He doesn't think he's getting the most out of this team. Maybe he's been right all along and maybe Lowry himself can be even better with a different coach?

9) This is more a reason why I don't think they'll pull the plug entirely than a reason not to but corporate sponsorship has never been stronger for the team. Long gone are the days of tiny corporate tie-ins. This team now has huge campaign dollars tied into Ford Canada, BMO Canada, Snickers Canada, Go Daddy, Coors Light and plenty more. The Raptors have never had so many premium brands cozied up and it's hard to imagine them punting that away because of the 8 earlier reasons combined with this one.

10) Simialar to point 9 this is more why I think they may not blow it up than why they shouldn't. They may want to try and better time the tear down around the Leafs rising dynasty. The Leafs rise toward Stanley Cups will soak up all the corporate sponsors they can imagine and will have the city going crazy and that will provide distraction from tank years. So, a hedge and one more year of assement with a retool and a new coach may be what they think is best.


Just stop.

I've enjoyed the last 4 years more than any other time in history. But it must end.

We thank KL,DD,JV etc for their years of service and move on. They'll all get hero's welcomes when they return with their new teams.

There's just way too much evidence now that Kyle and DeMar just aren't playoff performers. I love em, will always appreciate their love for Toronto and all but how much more evidence do you need that they haven't maxed out their potential? They've hit their ceiling, its obvious now.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#47 » by vaib » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:16 pm

Double Helix wrote:We need to pull the next Brad Stevens. Throw a ton of money at Shaka Smart, or somebody along those lines from the college game.




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I like your original post and I agree. Here is my take. If we are keeping the core, which I think we should, we need to get a coach like JVG who has seen the playoffs before would have the respect of his players. You never know how a rookie coach is going to respond being in the major leagues. Obviously Steve Kerr and Lue are bad examples because of the talent they had to work with.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#48 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:19 pm

I am in favor of getting rid of one of Lowry, Derozan or Casey and keeping the other two and Ibaka, and trying again. I don't think we should give up yet.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#49 » by gerrit4 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 pm

I still like this roster, and I think they can turn it around. I hate to be a Lowry excuser, but he still is fresh back from injury, and aside from that first game, he still isn't himself.

That being said, if we lose in the first round this year, we need to either come back next year with a better team, or retool. There's no way Masai will be able to sell us going so deep into the luxury tax to bring back even 3 of Lowry, Tucker, Ibaka, Patterson while shedding JV, Joseph, and maybe Carroll. That's a weaker roster than what may be a first round losing team this year. And packaging our draft pick with Carroll to clear space sounds absolutely insane right now.

That doesn't mean I think we should tear it down, but at the same time bringing Kyle & Patterson back with new contracts (and letting Tucker & Ibaka walk) turns us back into a 45 win team.

Personally, I'd consider only bringing back Ibaka - he's (apparantly) the youngest of the 4, and fits in a dozen different lineups. I'd also consider Tucker or Patterson for the same reasons.

If we lose this series, there are going to be some tough decisions for Masai about what we do with this franchise.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#50 » by RaptorsLife » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:34 pm

I seen enough.

I said this in the post game thread

John wall and Bradley Beal didn't become garbage in the playoffs even with Whitman

Curry and Thompson didn't become garbage in the playoffs with Mark Jackson as the coach


And those 4 guys were young

Derozan and Kyle Lowry have proven nothing time and time again in the playoffs

You want to kill fan interest and be deep into luxury tax. Then bring back the same core. Jussastic park has no excitement anymore. The ACC crowd isn't loud anymore.

You gotta give us new hope and a new plan. Toronto hates chokers
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#51 » by The Boy » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:40 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:I am in favor of getting rid of one of Lowry, Derozan or Casey and keeping the other two and Ibaka, and trying again. I don't think we should give up yet.

When we're not winning its more apparent that Lowry is unlikable and has a sulkiness about him.
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Re: RE: Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#52 » by RaptorsLife » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:42 pm

The Boy wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:I am in favor of getting rid of one of Lowry, Derozan or Casey and keeping the other two and Ibaka, and trying again. I don't think we should give up yet.

When we're not winning its more apparent that Lowry is unlikable and has a sulkiness about him.

What if Lowry hates the new coach. Your gonna be left with a disgruntled 32 year old PG that's over paid.

Derozan doesn't want to play defense. No matter how hard our coach. How hard pj Tucker tries. It's embarssing
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#53 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:54 pm

I think maybe you let Lowry walk now and bring back Tucker/Serge. Roll with a new offense that isn't 90's hip hop era basketball. That team without Lowry during that stretch looked good. Draft shooters, move JV, and finally let Delon play because Bobby Portis is going to start making Masai look stupid for passing on him very soon.
Jordan - Derozan
Pippen - Lowry
Rodman - Ibaka
Harper - Miles
Longley - JV

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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#54 » by Raptar7 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:09 pm

Basketball_Jones wrote:I think maybe you let Lowry walk now and bring back Tucker/Serge. Roll with a new offense that isn't 90's hip hop era basketball. That team without Lowry during that stretch looked good. Draft shooters, move JV, and finally let Delon play because Bobby Portis is going to start making Masai look stupid for passing on him very soon.

Your still rolling with DD as the guy, and that's a recipe for disaster. Enough of these chokers man.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#55 » by Basketball_Jones » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:17 pm

Raptar7 wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:I think maybe you let Lowry walk now and bring back Tucker/Serge. Roll with a new offense that isn't 90's hip hop era basketball. That team without Lowry during that stretch looked good. Draft shooters, move JV, and finally let Delon play because Bobby Portis is going to start making Masai look stupid for passing on him very soon.

Your still rolling with DD as the guy, and that's a recipe for disaster. Enough of these chokers man.


But he's a superstar...
Jordan - Derozan
Pippen - Lowry
Rodman - Ibaka
Harper - Miles
Longley - JV

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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#56 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:23 pm

Derozan is our Portland LMA. People thought the Blazers would badly miss his volume scoring. But they were set up well to handle it cause they had another all-star level scorer (Lillard) and they had some prospects and just needed one between McCollum, Leonard, Vonleh, etc. to step up and got it in McCollum

If we lose Derozan yes the cost of missing his volume scoring could hurt us. But we have another all-star in Lowry, some guys with 15ppg potential in Ibaka and JV, and we have prospects and would hope to get lucky with one like Powell or Poeltl or our pick this year, plus we get a return for Derozan that could also give us potential to get a volume scorer. We just need someone to score around 17-18 points per game and having someone else to take shots isn't that big of a problem with Lowry is healthy.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#57 » by Raptar7 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:36 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Derozan is our Portland LMA. People thought the Blazers would badly miss his volume scoring. But they were set up well to handle it cause they had another all-star level scorer (Lillard) and they had some prospects and just needed one between McCollum, Leonard, Vonleh, etc. to step up and got it in McCollum

If we lose Derozan yes the cost of missing his volume scoring could hurt us. But we have another all-star in Lowry, some guys with 15ppg potential in Ibaka and JV, and we have prospects and would hope to get lucky with one like Powell or Poeltl or our pick this year, plus we get a return for Derozan that could also give us potential to get a volume scorer. We just need someone to score around 17-18 points per game and having someone else to take shots isn't that big of a problem with Lowry is healthy.

Yes, DD is an issue, but Lowry is as well. Even if we replace DD with a couple of role players, do you not expect a Lowry led team to collapse as well? Lowry is right along with DD in terms of biggest playoff chokers.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#58 » by TDGlenmanor » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:09 pm

It's Casey guys.

Lowry doesn't want to throw him under the bus publicly anymore because Demar tells him not to. Lowry has expressed to Demar if they can't win then he will walk in FA because Casey is not utilizing the team properly, Demar believes in staying here until it's time to retire, and thinks one day they will be able to win it all with Casey at the helm.

Instead of sitting down and having a heart to heart with James Johnson about his attitude at the time, and how he was holding himself back from major potential and cash in the league, Casey chased him out of town. He would have been the difference in this series to hold Giannis a bit more to allow us to squeak by.

Casey's culture was definitely needed during the time he was appointed, however his time is up.

Imagine if Milwaukee had Norman Powell off the bench and Normgod had JKidd as his coach as opposed to Casey, they would be another piece away from contending for a while.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#59 » by AbC? » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:17 pm

The NBA needs a few treadmill teams like the Hawks and Raps. That's the niche we fill and we do a DAMN good job of it. Keep the crew together.
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Re: 10 Reasons to keep Lowry/Derozan/Ibaka together even if we lose this series 

Post#60 » by Class Act » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:43 pm

Enough with DD. His PPG get us nowhere, and never will. Never mind that embarrassing debacle, and perfect storm that allowed us to stumble into the ECF. Unfortunately it wouldn't make sense to keep Ibaka and Lowry here unless we could land a solid SG or SF for him. That is not going to happen, so I say rebuild.

I am so jealous watching an intelligent dynamic scorer/passer/defender in Middleton abuse us.
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