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F SI #ProveEm

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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#121 » by Zeno » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:24 pm

I doubt DD is actually upset at all. Just looking to rattle his own muse-cage is likely the extent of it.
When will we just change the name of 25 of the 30 teams to the Washington Generals?

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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#122 » by Kabookalu » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:32 pm

phanman wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
phanman wrote:Parker has been the engine to the Spurs offense for like the last decade so he can't be faulted for playing below average defense. Its not like they had another PG, until recently, to take up his mantle. They also had Duncan down low to clean up any mistakes he made playing pesky defense earlier in his career. Splitter was solid defender and so was Diaw. When their effectiveness waned, they were effectively traded/dropped for new talent. Diaw himself was instrumental in giving Bron an additional look in that 2014 finals series and one of their best PnR defenders that year and Matt Bonner played sporadically.

JV doesn't hedge NOW, because Casey has made adjustments this past season.

.. which includes LMA, Gasol and Lee playing average level defense. Again, I am not saying they are DPOY, or above average but to make a statement that they are horrid defenders under Pop is asinine. As evidenced by the team's success in being the top defensive team in the regular season. Bigs are the last line of defense and as transcendent as Kawhi is on the perimeter, he can't guard everybody.


I'm not trying to be rude, but do you watch the Raptors play? Jonas has never been accused of hedging too hard, his biggest fault defensively has always been he drops back way too low. I've literally never heard of anyone saying that he hedges too hard as the reason why he's bad defensively. Again it's the opposite, he doesn't hedge at all.

You're also backtracking on your words. You said that the only way to get minutes under Poppovich is if you performed on the defensive end, that's false as evident by Parker's playing time, now it's okay? Splitter was solid towards the end of his Spurs career, but he was getting consistent starter minutes as a poor defender when he was drafted and for the first couple of years he played for them until he got better. Diaw didn't really do that well on LeBron whenever they switched, I'm not sure how that's a point championing him here.

How am I back-tracking when Parker wasn't a notoriously bad defender. Added to the fact that defense from the PG position isnt as crucial and he did his best of his abilities playing defense. You get minutes under Pop for playing and putting effort in defensively. Diaw gave him a different look which at times help frustrate Bron not sure how you are refuting that bfact.

Obviously I watch the Raptors and I am not talking about this season but 2 seasons prior when JV was forced out side of the paint to help stop PnR coverage(that terrible 14/15 season). Don't question my fandom, one quick google search and you get your answer but incase your too lazy to do so:

"That’s important news, because Valanciunas’ play on the defensive end of the floor was one of the impetuses for tweaking Casey’s formerly hyper-aggressive system. Last season, the Raptors would switch heavily on screens on the perimeter, asking Valanciunas to hedge out on guards in the pick-and-roll, cover a ton of ground, and generally task him with far too much reactionary play."
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/10/29/valanciunas-looks-comfortable-with-new-defense-in-strong-opening-performance/


Dude, Parker is a pretty bad defender. He's not below average, he's bad, and he has been for a while now. He was okay during the mid to late 2000's, but definitely not within the past couple of seasons. Diaw also wasn't good. You seem pretty adamant about that point though so agree to disagree.

Is that the only piece of evidence you have? One little paragraph from a fansite? I actually googled "Jonas hedging defense" and the first 2 pages gave me articles of people criticizing Jonas for not hedging enough, and some of them have stats to back it up, not just a single paragraph. The first article does have a clip of Jonas hedging high and getting burned for it, but it made no claims of him being guilty of constantly hedging high, it criticized his inability to do so.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#123 » by phanman » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:48 pm

Kabookalu wrote:
phanman wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
I'm not trying to be rude, but do you watch the Raptors play? Jonas has never been accused of hedging too hard, his biggest fault defensively has always been he drops back way too low. I've literally never heard of anyone saying that he hedges too hard as the reason why he's bad defensively. Again it's the opposite, he doesn't hedge at all.

You're also backtracking on your words. You said that the only way to get minutes under Poppovich is if you performed on the defensive end, that's false as evident by Parker's playing time, now it's okay? Splitter was solid towards the end of his Spurs career, but he was getting consistent starter minutes as a poor defender when he was drafted and for the first couple of years he played for them until he got better. Diaw didn't really do that well on LeBron whenever they switched, I'm not sure how that's a point championing him here.

How am I back-tracking when Parker wasn't a notoriously bad defender. Added to the fact that defense from the PG position isnt as crucial and he did his best of his abilities playing defense. You get minutes under Pop for playing and putting effort in defensively. Diaw gave him a different look which at times help frustrate Bron not sure how you are refuting that bfact.

Obviously I watch the Raptors and I am not talking about this season but 2 seasons prior when JV was forced out side of the paint to help stop PnR coverage(that terrible 14/15 season). Don't question my fandom, one quick google search and you get your answer but incase your too lazy to do so:

"That’s important news, because Valanciunas’ play on the defensive end of the floor was one of the impetuses for tweaking Casey’s formerly hyper-aggressive system. Last season, the Raptors would switch heavily on screens on the perimeter, asking Valanciunas to hedge out on guards in the pick-and-roll, cover a ton of ground, and generally task him with far too much reactionary play."
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/10/29/valanciunas-looks-comfortable-with-new-defense-in-strong-opening-performance/


Dude, Parker is a pretty bad defender. He's not below average, he's bad, and he has been for a while now. He was okay during the mid to late 2000's, but definitely not within the past couple of seasons. Diaw also wasn't good. You seem pretty adamant about that point though so agree to disagree.

Is that the only piece of evidence you have? One little paragraph from a fansite? I actually googled "Jonas hedging defense" and the first 2 pages gave me articles of people criticizing Jonas for not hedging enough, and some of them have stats to back it up, not just a single paragraph. The first article does have a clip of Jonas hedging high and getting burned for it, but it made no claims of him being guilty of constantly hedging high, it criticized his inability to do so.

The article alone has plenty of examples/videos to showcase their point and the switch Casey made the following season from 14/15. JV doesn't hedge as often any more because we have seen that experiment fail miserably with him being pulled out of the paint and in no-mans land on the perimeter. It negates some the few benefits he has defensively in regards to rim protection and defensive rebounding. There are plenty of other examples, but this has gotten off topic and we'll just agree to disagree... You think LMA is a poor defender I don't and we'll just leave it at that.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#124 » by Lukeem » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:30 am

I dont really think horford, aldridge or love have any business being over him. Then I think there are like 15-20 guys people could debate till theyre blue in the face but it will come down to taste moreso than anything else
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#125 » by Kabookalu » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:38 am

phanman wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
phanman wrote:How am I back-tracking when Parker wasn't a notoriously bad defender. Added to the fact that defense from the PG position isnt as crucial and he did his best of his abilities playing defense. You get minutes under Pop for playing and putting effort in defensively. Diaw gave him a different look which at times help frustrate Bron not sure how you are refuting that bfact.

Obviously I watch the Raptors and I am not talking about this season but 2 seasons prior when JV was forced out side of the paint to help stop PnR coverage(that terrible 14/15 season). Don't question my fandom, one quick google search and you get your answer but incase your too lazy to do so:

"That’s important news, because Valanciunas’ play on the defensive end of the floor was one of the impetuses for tweaking Casey’s formerly hyper-aggressive system. Last season, the Raptors would switch heavily on screens on the perimeter, asking Valanciunas to hedge out on guards in the pick-and-roll, cover a ton of ground, and generally task him with far too much reactionary play."
http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2015/10/29/valanciunas-looks-comfortable-with-new-defense-in-strong-opening-performance/


Dude, Parker is a pretty bad defender. He's not below average, he's bad, and he has been for a while now. He was okay during the mid to late 2000's, but definitely not within the past couple of seasons. Diaw also wasn't good. You seem pretty adamant about that point though so agree to disagree.

Is that the only piece of evidence you have? One little paragraph from a fansite? I actually googled "Jonas hedging defense" and the first 2 pages gave me articles of people criticizing Jonas for not hedging enough, and some of them have stats to back it up, not just a single paragraph. The first article does have a clip of Jonas hedging high and getting burned for it, but it made no claims of him being guilty of constantly hedging high, it criticized his inability to do so.

The article alone has plenty of examples/videos to showcase their point and the switch Casey made the following season from 14/15. JV doesn't hedge as often any more because we have seen that experiment fail miserably with him being pulled out of the paint and in no-mans land on the perimeter. It negates some the few benefits he has defensively in regards to rim protection and defensive rebounding. There are plenty of other examples, but this has gotten off topic and we'll just agree to disagree... You think LMA is a poor defender I don't and we'll just leave it at that.


https://bballbreakdown.com/2015/02/16/unpicking-the-problem-with-the-toronto-raptors-defense/

"The Raptors’ defensive struggles are not limited to just their inability to rotate properly, though. Given their general defensive approach, the Raptors need their big men to hedge screens consistently. Hedging screens serves the purpose of slowing down the ball handler. When the ball stops or even slows down, the offensive ball movement begins later than it normally would. That gives the defense extra time to recover and/or get into passing lanes. Consistent with that approach, the Raptors hedge on a high percentage of ball screens.

However, as Phil Davey of Vantage Sports points out, because of his physical limitations, Jonas Valanciunas hedges on a very small percentage of screens. Instead, he drops back and allows the ball handler to turn the corner and have open space in the paint to either shoot or penetrate, just as he did above. The Raptors defense has felt the effect of giving ball handlers this extra space in the paint, giving up the third most shots from 3-10 feet in the league as a percentage of total shots. Opponents are shooting 41.4% on those shots, the third worst number in the league. The Raptors’ terrific offense gets and makes those same shots on offense at a similar rate, but they are unable to stop them defensively."

http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articles/archive_article_view/VhvXYh8AACAArrCS

"This raises some interesting questions because starting center Jonas Valanciunas rarely hedged on screens, extending toward the perimeter to stop the ball only 1.7 percent of the time, nearly the same as the entire Portland Trail Blazers (1.3 percent), who ranked 30th in the league."

http://nationalpost.com/sports/basketball/nba/toronto-raptors-jonas-valanciunas-still-working-on-his-defensive-game

"Over Valanciunas’s first three years, the Raptors became familiar enough with his limitations that they are asking him to do far less on defence this year. He hangs back in the paint whenever possible, instead of hedging hard and trapping the ball handler."

Just on the first page alone on google. What am I to believe, an obvious Jonas Valanciunas biased website in Raptors Republic, or three sources that are not at all related to the Raptors? I can't believe you watched that Washington series thinking Jonas got torched because he hedged too high. It was because he dropped down too low.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#126 » by Raps in 4 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:34 am

Denisaur9 wrote:James Harden could be the worst defender in the history of the NBA and he will be ranked too 5. Not saying they're the same talent but can't say DD isn't too 20 because of defence.

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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#127 » by Smitson » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:49 am

Since when did star players in basketball have to be two way players? This seems to be a new narrative around. Demar has the tools to be a better defender, but we'd need someone else to handle some of his usage.

Butler & PG13 are the only star players who aren't perennial MVP candidates that are actually good two way players.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#128 » by Raps in 4 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:26 am

Smitson wrote:Since when did star players in basketball have to be two way players?


Since always?

You can get a pass if you're a truly dominant offensive option, but Demar isn't that.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#129 » by Too Late Crew » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:16 am

zippy wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
Aldridge is a pretty bad defender to be honest. Maybe the stats say differently but if they favor him then a lot of that must have to do with playing next to arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Kawhi, and another really good one in Green. Everything that makes Valanciunas a liability on defense directly applies to Aldridge, except he's not a beast on the boards.


Sure ok. Forget who's ranked above him.

If Derozan wants to be ranked higher, he has to be a better defender. He has to be a positive on the floor every time. It's really that simple.


But Derozan really isn't a terrible defender.. forget the analytics. On the floor, he's usually in his position and gives some form of competition. i'm not saying the guy is a perennial all nba defensive team candidate but he's really not the worse guy to have on D. That being said, his defence is probably the ONLY thing lacking in his overall player profile.


So the fact that he's a horrible 3 shooter as a SG isn't lacking in his overall player profile?
This isn't even one of those agree to disagree situations.
It's a glaring flaw that you are completely ignoring.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#130 » by Jstock12 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:43 am

Zeno wrote:I doubt DD is actually upset at all. Just looking to rattle his own muse-cage is likely the extent of it.


I disagree. I'm fairly sure it bothers him a lot. I think DeMar has a big ego. And I think it's one of the things that helps him get better each year.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#131 » by Kevin Willis » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:49 am

Too Late Crew wrote:
zippy wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Sure ok. Forget who's ranked above him.

If Derozan wants to be ranked higher, he has to be a better defender. He has to be a positive on the floor every time. It's really that simple.


But Derozan really isn't a terrible defender.. forget the analytics. On the floor, he's usually in his position and gives some form of competition. i'm not saying the guy is a perennial all nba defensive team candidate but he's really not the worse guy to have on D. That being said, his defence is probably the ONLY thing lacking in his overall player profile.


So the fact that he's a horrible 3 shooter as a SG isn't lacking in his overall player profile?
This isn't even one of those agree to disagree situations.
It's a glaring flaw that you are completely ignoring.


There are PGs who can't pass, just score. There are PGs who can't defend.
There are SFs who are not athletic. There are SFs who can't take their man off the dribble.
There are PFs who can't shoot the 3. There are PFs who have no back to basket game or can't defend the rim
There are Cs who can't anchor the defense. There are Cs who don't play in the post on offense.
A few of these players are rated higher than DD on the list.

DD is a SG that can't shoot 3s. However some aspects of his game are elite and if some of your game is elite you should be in top 25 at least.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#132 » by Johnny Bball » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:07 pm

JV manages to hedge on about 2% of plays if I remember right which is downright terrible. He's not asked to not hedge for any reason but he can't do it, it is not a reflection of the defensive system at all and that is not a valid reason, we added icing sideline pnr to help him, he is downright terrible defending the pnr and his inability to hedge is a huge reason why. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#133 » by zippy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:31 pm

Demar CAN shoot the three, he chooses not to. To call him a terrible three point shooter is asinine based on the amount of attempts he makes all season. He's mastered the mid-range game, why step out of his expertise and try to do too much? If he has an open 3 (especially baseline) he takes it and in most cases makes it. However I'd prefer him to suck the defence in to the post or mid-range leaving Miles, Powell, Lowry, Ibaka open to sink a higher percentage 3. Derozan haters just don't make sense.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#134 » by dhackett1565 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:37 pm

zippy wrote:Demar CAN shoot the three, he chooses not to. To call him a terrible three point shooter is asinine based on the amount of attempts he makes all season. He's mastered the mid-range game, why step out of his expertise and try to do too much? If he has an open 3 (especially baseline) he takes it and in most cases makes it. However I'd prefer him to suck the defence in to the post or mid-range leaving Miles, Powell, Lowry, Ibaka open to sink a higher percentage 3. Derozan haters just don't make sense.


In most cases makes it? He had 87 3 point attempts with the defender at least 4 feet away, and shot 31% on those attempts. He barely ever got a wide open attempt (6+ feet away from defender), only 16 all year, and he made only 3 of those 16 shots.
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Re: RE: Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#135 » by zFoxHoUnD-x » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:37 pm

Wo1verine wrote:Maybe if he quits being a lazy arse and actually plays defence instead of being a pylon people will give him higher ratings.

#ProveEmWithDefence

Exactly. Defense is mostly effort, and Demar puts minimal effort into guarding the opposition.

When Demar actually cares about defense his ranking will improve.

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Re: RE: Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#136 » by zFoxHoUnD-x » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:47 pm

zippy wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Kabookalu wrote:
Aldridge is a pretty bad defender to be honest. Maybe the stats say differently but if they favor him then a lot of that must have to do with playing next to arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time in Kawhi, and another really good one in Green. Everything that makes Valanciunas a liability on defense directly applies to Aldridge, except he's not a beast on the boards.


Sure ok. Forget who's ranked above him.

If Derozan wants to be ranked higher, he has to be a better defender. He has to be a positive on the floor every time. It's really that simple.


But Derozan really isn't a terrible defender.. forget the analytics. On the floor, he's usually in his position and gives some form of competition. i'm not saying the guy is a perennial all nba defensive team candidate but he's really not the worse guy to have on D. That being said, his defence is probably the ONLY thing lacking in his overall player profile.

He absolutely is a terrible defender. He might be in the right position occasionally but he puts zero effort into staying in front of his man (except when PJ got in his grill).

I'm not much for analytics either, I prefer the eye test, and i've seen every game, and what I see from Demar on defense makes me yell at the screen, and that makes my wife think I'm crazy.

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Re: RE: Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#137 » by Duffman100 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:02 pm

zFoxHoUnD-x wrote:
zippy wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
Sure ok. Forget who's ranked above him.

If Derozan wants to be ranked higher, he has to be a better defender. He has to be a positive on the floor every time. It's really that simple.


But Derozan really isn't a terrible defender.. forget the analytics. On the floor, he's usually in his position and gives some form of competition. i'm not saying the guy is a perennial all nba defensive team candidate but he's really not the worse guy to have on D. That being said, his defence is probably the ONLY thing lacking in his overall player profile.

He absolutely is a terrible defender. He might be in the right position occasionally but he puts zero effort into staying in front of his man (except when PJ got in his grill).

I'm not much for analytics either, I prefer the eye test, and i've seen every game, and what I see from Demar on defense makes me yell at the screen, and that makes my wife think I'm crazy.

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Re: RE: Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#138 » by Kevin Willis » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:11 pm

zFoxHoUnD-x wrote:
Wo1verine wrote:Maybe if he quits being a lazy arse and actually plays defence instead of being a pylon people will give him higher ratings.

#ProveEmWithDefence

Exactly. Defense is mostly effort, and Demar puts minimal effort into guarding the opposition.

When Demar actually cares about defense his ranking will improve.

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I don't believe anyone thinks Demar is a great defender. He is too slow with his lateral footspeed and he doesn't put in the effort. But there are players ranked higher than DD who are also bad defenders. A few actually.

DD has some abilities though that are elite. Those skills should put him in the top 25 ahead of players like Middleton. Westbrook has an elite all-around game, same with Durant, Cousins, Davis, Green, Gasol, PG, CP4, Lebron, Giannis, Leonard, Thompson, Wall, etc. Curry and Harden are elite shooters. Irving and IT are elite offensive talent. DD is NOT in the category of the elite all-around game group. No-one is saying that.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2698613-metrics-101-the-top-5-nba-defenders-at-every-position Here is a list of some of the top defenders in the league by position. How many of these players are in the top 25? Less than 40%. That tells me that being a good defender and an elite offensive player puts them in Gawd territory - top 10 - 15 in the league. But being elite in an aspect of offense should put him in the top 25.

Note: Gobert is a clear exception where he should be 25 based off his only his defense. But he has elite defense not just good defense.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#139 » by Tacoma » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Interesting that people here are arguing DD should be ranked higher due to perceived lesser players ranked ahead of him (like Middleton) but don't bother to mention possible players ranked behind DD that may arguably be better. For example, Isaiah Thomas had a higher scoring average than DD (important since scoring is about all DD does), AND Thomas also led his team to 1st in the East and ECF. DD isn't even the leader of his own team (Lowry is) that had a worse regular season and playoff record.

At the end of the day with all the pluses and minuses, and without the benefit of Raptors fanboy glasses, I think a ranking in the mid 30's is fair and reasonable for the player that DD is.
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Re: F SI #ProveEm 

Post#140 » by TOStateofMind » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:46 pm

If he didnt like SI's ranking i wonder what he thinks of the espn one lmao
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