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Bosh vs Siakam

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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#41 » by Reeko » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:45 am

Live Free wrote:CB was a top 5 PF as a Raptor.. Siakam is barely a top 30 player if that

Can you name 5 better PF's than Siakam?
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#42 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:47 am

PT416 wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:I think Bosh was definitely better than what we've seen from Siakam so far but Siakam still hasn't hit his prime so we will see.

Siakam is 1 year older than Bosh's last year here. I know he started playing late but age is still a thing. When is he going to hit his prime? 27? 28? 30? It's gonna be a short prime.

I'm not sure. I guess it's possible he's reached his prime already. It's obvious he will never be a good first option which means he is by default at most a second scoring option which he has already shown success doing in the championship run.

Since we are going into a rebuild, maybe it's time to cash him in to a team that needs a second scoring option.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#43 » by PT416 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:52 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
PT416 wrote:Bosh >> SIakam. You guys are tripping. Bosh as a 3rd option was putting up what Siakam is doing as a first option. Also he was way better as a first option. Bosh was clutch, could break down his defender and defensively they're not that far off from each other either. Bosh also didn't have a Kawhi or Lowry in Toronto. He had a Calderon and Bargnani.


Huh? Bosh as a third option was putting up like 17-7-2. Pascal last year put up 23-7-3 and this year 20-9-5. How is that similar?

I’d take bush currently because he was more polished scoring wise but he was also a trash facilitator. Pascal is light years ahead of him in that department.

You're right. I take it back. I was tripping. Bosh beats him in advanced stats though. As option 3 he was putting up similar BPM as Siakam option 1 and as option 1 he was putting up better BPM than Siakam ever.

casual_raps_fan wrote:
PT416 wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:I think Bosh was definitely better than what we've seen from Siakam so far but Siakam still hasn't hit his prime so we will see.

Siakam is 1 year older than Bosh's last year here. I know he started playing late but age is still a thing. When is he going to hit his prime? 27? 28? 30? It's gonna be a short prime.

I'm not sure. I guess it's possible he's reached his prime already. It's obvious he will never be a good first option which means he is by default at most a second scoring option which he has already shown success doing in the championship run.

Since we are going into a rebuild, maybe it's time to cash him in to a team that needs a second scoring option.

You had a point though, Siakam's prime is probably gonna be later. It's just gonna be short lived. Maybe we can figure out that window it's gonna be within the next 2-5 years.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#44 » by HKBOY » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:56 am

Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#45 » by halifax » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:05 am

bosh
willingly took the last shot
reliable 10+ rebounds a couple blocked shots
high fg% even with high usage
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#46 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:11 am

HKBOY wrote:Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.

I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#47 » by Reeko » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:11 am

halifax wrote:bosh
willingly took the last shot
reliable 10+ rebounds a couple blocked shots
high fg% even with high usage

Bosh never averaged 2 blocks at any point in his career.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#48 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:14 am

casual_raps_fan wrote:
HKBOY wrote:Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.

I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.


Which is why siakam’s raptors were on a 60 win pace and made the 2nd round. Something the teams with bosh never did.

The reality is that if you put bosh instead of siakam on last years team we maybe make the ecf and that’s it. Neither can lead a team to the promised land. The gap between then is closer than some think.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#49 » by halifax » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:16 am

Reeko wrote:
halifax wrote:bosh
willingly took the last shot
reliable 10+ rebounds a couple blocked shots
high fg% even with high usage

Bosh never averaged 2 blocks at any point in his career.


ok then 1.4 blocks
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#50 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:23 am

halifax wrote:
Reeko wrote:
halifax wrote:bosh
willingly took the last shot
reliable 10+ rebounds a couple blocked shots
high fg% even with high usage

Bosh never averaged 2 blocks at any point in his career.


ok then 1.4 blocks


Bosh averaged 1 bpg for his career. Pascal is averaging 0.7 blocks in less mpg. The difference isn’t really that crazy lol.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#51 » by HKBOY » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:23 am

casual_raps_fan wrote:
HKBOY wrote:Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.

I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.


Bosh was a good player but he was always weak mentally. Only two first round exits during his tenure here and the 06-08 roster wasn't that bad. Remember the 09-10 season? The East was bad back in the days and he still couldn't carry this team to the playoffs. I still remember he got hit in the stomach and was out for the rest of the season when the team was battling for the 8th seed.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#52 » by halifax » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:25 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
halifax wrote:
Reeko wrote:Bosh never averaged 2 blocks at any point in his career.


ok then 1.4 blocks


Bosh averaged 1 bpg for his career. Pascal is averaging 0.7 blocks in less mpg. The difference isn’t really that crazy lol.


when bosh was pascals age he was averaging closer to 1.4. double
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#53 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:28 am

halifax wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
halifax wrote:
ok then 1.4 blocks


Bosh averaged 1 bpg for his career. Pascal is averaging 0.7 blocks in less mpg. The difference isn’t really that crazy lol.


when bosh was pascals age he was averaging closer to 1.4. double


When bosh was 26 in 2010 he averaged 1bpg in 36mpg. Last season pascal averaged 0.9bpg in 35mpg. Try again my good sir.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#54 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:39 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:
HKBOY wrote:Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.

I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.


Which is why siakam’s raptors were on a 60 win pace and made the 2nd round. Something the teams with bosh never did.

The reality is that if you put bosh instead of siakam on last years team we maybe make the ecf and that’s it. Neither can lead a team to the promised land. The gap between then is closer than some think.

Wouldn't getting past the second round be quite the significant difference?

It seems like we are agreeing on the key points and are just disagreeing on minor details.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#55 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:49 am

casual_raps_fan wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.


Which is why siakam’s raptors were on a 60 win pace and made the 2nd round. Something the teams with bosh never did.

The reality is that if you put bosh instead of siakam on last years team we maybe make the ecf and that’s it. Neither can lead a team to the promised land. The gap between then is closer than some think.

Wouldn't getting past the second round be quite the significant difference?

It seems like we are agreeing on the key points and are just disagreeing on minor details.


I mean you argued it’s unfair to say that bosh couldn’t lead a team and my thought is that the best he could lead a team to is the conference finals. And tbf if pascal didn’t play well below his standards in the bubble we would’ve made it with him as well.

And nah I don’t think conference semis and conference finals is a huge difference. It’s still that same class of player that’d be a good 2nd or 3rd option at the end of the day. I agree bosh is better. But my argument is that it’s not by a considerable margin. There’s actually some important things that pascal actually does better (facilitating, perimeter D and possibly 3pt shooting)
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#56 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:57 am

HKBOY wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:
HKBOY wrote:Siakam is a top 25 player right now. Prime Bosh was probably top 15, the gap isn't that big since both cannot lead a team.

I'm not so sure that's fair to Bosh to say he cannot lead a team. He never had a good team constructed around him and was always burdened to carry such a massive scoring load. During his best years in Toronto, the best playmakers he played with are TJ Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jose Calderon.

Siakam's sample as the first option is really small but the roster had a lot of very solid players across all positions (Lowry, Fred, OG, Gasol, Ibaka, Norm).

The gap is pretty big for me.


Bosh was a good player but he was always weak mentally. Only two first round exits during his tenure here and the 06-08 roster wasn't that bad. Remember the 09-10 season? The East was bad back in the days and he still couldn't carry this team to the playoffs. I still remember he got hit in the stomach and was out for the rest of the season when the team was battling for the 8th seed.

06-08 rosters weren't bad? I'm not so sure about that. The best players he played during those seasons are Parker, Ford, Garbajosa, Calderon. Those guys are solid as role players but definitely not as second options.

The 09-10 season the key players he played with were Bargnani, Turkoglu, Calderon, Jarret Jack... come on. That's just not reasonable. Bargnani only cared about shooting the ball. Turkoglu was so unprofessional, fat, and completely checked out. Calderon and Jarret Jack are professional but very limited.

I don't blame Bosh giving up. He tried for years and Brian Colangelo failed him.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#57 » by casual_raps_fan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:06 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
Which is why siakam’s raptors were on a 60 win pace and made the 2nd round. Something the teams with bosh never did.

The reality is that if you put bosh instead of siakam on last years team we maybe make the ecf and that’s it. Neither can lead a team to the promised land. The gap between then is closer than some think.

Wouldn't getting past the second round be quite the significant difference?

It seems like we are agreeing on the key points and are just disagreeing on minor details.


I mean you argued it’s unfair to say that bosh couldn’t lead a team and my thought is that the best he could lead a team to is the conference finals. And tbf if pascal didn’t play well below his standards in the bubble we would’ve made it with him as well.

And nah I don’t think conference semis and conference finals is a huge difference. It’s still that same class of player that’d be a good 2nd or 3rd option at the end of the day. I agree bosh is better. But my argument is that it’s not by a considerable margin. There’s actually some important things that pascal actually does better (facilitating, perimeter D and possibly 3pt shooting)

Ok fair enough. What I meant was that he was never really given a shot to make a playoff run and it sounds like we both agreed that his limit as a first option is conference finals. To me that's really good for a guy that is not built to be a first option for a contender.

Some people make it sound like Bosh was a terrible first option but he was given less to work with than guys like Anthony Davis (Jrue Holiday) or Kevin Garnett on the Wolves (Cassell and Sprewell). Just to be clear, I'm not saying Bosh is as good as Davis or Garnett.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#58 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:12 am

casual_raps_fan wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
casual_raps_fan wrote:Wouldn't getting past the second round be quite the significant difference?

It seems like we are agreeing on the key points and are just disagreeing on minor details.


I mean you argued it’s unfair to say that bosh couldn’t lead a team and my thought is that the best he could lead a team to is the conference finals. And tbf if pascal didn’t play well below his standards in the bubble we would’ve made it with him as well.

And nah I don’t think conference semis and conference finals is a huge difference. It’s still that same class of player that’d be a good 2nd or 3rd option at the end of the day. I agree bosh is better. But my argument is that it’s not by a considerable margin. There’s actually some important things that pascal actually does better (facilitating, perimeter D and possibly 3pt shooting)

Ok fair enough. What I meant was that he was never really given a shot to make a playoff run and it sounds like we both agreed that his limit as a first option is conference finals. To me that's really good for a guy that is not built to be a first option for a contender.

Some people make it sound like Bosh was a terrible first option but he was given less to work with than guys like Anthony Davis (Jrue Holiday) or Kevin Garnett on the Wolves (Cassell and Sprewell). Just to be clear, I'm not saying Bosh is as good as Davis or Garnett.


Agreed. Those raps teams around bosh sucked.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#59 » by Chandan » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:44 am

bosh is a lot better than pascal on offense.
Pascal wasn't just bad in the bubble. I think his explosiveness got exposed. he has the potential to be faster than Bosh but he isn't there yet.
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Re: Bosh vs Siakam 

Post#60 » by Young Moosehead » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:17 am

Its worth remembering that when Bosh played with with us, opposing big men looked at him like "BBQ Chicken" as a defender.

It is also worth remembering that Bosh never once got double digit assists in his 7 years as a number one option, or eclipsed 2.6 APG.

Yeah, at this point Bosh has the advantage, but he has some weaknesses.

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