Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Towns: 31 seasons, 1 conference finals

[Wannabe MEP]

Yeah can't agree with that statement either. 2019 we wouldn't have won with Theis, and more importantly not with JV. Marc was a unique combo of big man defense, defensive quarterback, and elite passer at the other end. Just Philly alone, we don't beat them with anyone but Gasol stifling Embiid.

Gasol was...maybe fourth most important player on the team? I'd put Kawhi, Lowry, and Siakam up against anyone else's top three in those playoffs, and the Raptors depth was good as well. Raptors had a better on/off with Ibaka than Gasol during those playoffs, including against the 76ers. Gasol was a solid defender and savvy veteran, but clearly slowing. Theis would have been a solid defender as well, with better mobility, but less veteran savvy. I don't think it's clear either way.

"...we don't beat them with anyone but Gasol stifling Embiid." 34-year-old Gasol was the only guy in the league who could have been the Raptors fourth best player that year??

I really do like your posts but saying we would've won with Daniel Theis instead of Marc Gasol is just taking it too far in my opinion. You do know that Daniel Theis barely played in the playoffs that year right? And in these playoffs Ime Udoka is sweating bullets every time Daniel Theis is in the game. He's counting down the minutes until he can put him back on the bench.

We wouldn't get through the 2nd round with Daniel Theis. Gasol had a 3.1 DBPM which is elite level defense. Theis was at the end of the bench playing spot minutes for a team that got destroyed by the Bucks. Actually some fun little tidbits for you. In the playoffs that year Theis had a -3.0 OBPM and a -1.2DBPM. .030 WS/48, 0 VORP.

We lose in the 2nd round with Daniel Theis. End of discussion.

He was starting center and played 482 minutes in the playoffs for the team that made it to the Eastern Conference Finals one year later; he didn't learn to play basketball at 27.

But the point isn't about Theis anyway: Theis was arbitrary. Insert some other name if that makes you more comfortable: I was throwing out a random name. The point was that Gasol was fourth man when he finally won a title. He had been *the man* in Memphis: did very little winning in the playoffs. Fourth man (defensive role player) on a team built on perimeter players? Title.

[Los_29]

Gasol was...maybe fourth most important player on the team? I'd put Kawhi, Lowry, and Siakam up against anyone else's top three in those playoffs, and the Raptors depth was good as well. Raptors had a better on/off with Ibaka than Gasol during those playoffs, including against the 76ers. Gasol was a solid defender and savvy veteran, but clearly slowing. Theis would have been a solid defender as well, with better mobility, but less veteran savvy. I don't think it's clear either way.

"...we don't beat them with anyone but Gasol stifling Embiid." 34-year-old Gasol was the only guy in the league who could have been the Raptors fourth best player that year??

I really do like your posts but saying we would've won with Daniel Theis instead of Marc Gasol is just taking it too far in my opinion. You do know that Daniel Theis barely played in the playoffs that year right? And in these playoffs Ime Udoka is sweating bullets every time Daniel Theis is in the game. He's counting down the minutes until he can put him back on the bench.

We wouldn't get through the 2nd round with Daniel Theis. Gasol had a 3.1 DBPM which is elite level defense. Theis was at the end of the bench playing spot minutes for a team that got destroyed by the Bucks. Actually some fun little tidbits for you. In the playoffs that year Theis had a -3.0 OBPM and a -1.2DBPM. .030 WS/48, 0 VORP.

We lose in the 2nd round with Daniel Theis. End of discussion.

He was starting center and played 482 minutes in the playoffs for the team that made it to the Eastern Conference Finals one year later; he didn't learn to play basketball at 27.

But the point isn't about Theis anyway: Theis was arbitrary. Insert some other name if that makes you more comfortable: I was throwing out a random name. The point was that Gasol was fourth man when he finally won a title. He had been *the man* in Memphis: did very little winning in the playoffs. Fourth man (defensive role player) on a team built on perimeter players? Title.

Well he wasn’t good at basketball in the 2018-2019 playoffs and that’s the year you said he could replace a Hall of Famer and DPOY and the team wouldn’t skip a beat.

Didn’t Gasol make the conference finals one year? That’s a lot more winning than most players do.

I actually think if we had Theis the following year and Gasol was on the Celtics we would’ve won. But that was more than a year later and for a 35 year old that makes a big difference. Gasol showed his age that year and wasn’t productive. But the year before he played a critical role in our championship. Without him, we don’t have that championship banner.

[WaltFrazier]

You said the Raptors were a "centreless team". I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "centreless".

Looney, Powell, and Kleber are all *real centers*, but Achiuwa and Birch are not? What's the standard for a *real center*?

6'10 and taller.

So not Daniel Theis, Kevon Looney, Bam Adebayo, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, or Bill Russell.

It was a joke. Based on season long discussions.

But I would say, some guys just play like centers. And play bigger than their listed height . All the guys you listed are/were strong, anchored the paint on D. And most could jump very high, especially Russ, Wallace and Howard.

Also, Bam is listed as 6'9 I think, and I studied very carefully a couple of our Heat games. Bam is clearly a good inch or more taller than Precious, Boucher, Scottie and Pascal when lined up side by side on a free throw. Watching Looney right now, killing it for the Warriors as a center against the centerless Mavs, also looks bigger than listed with his broad shoulders.

KD at 6'11 of course is not a center.

[WaltFrazier]

You think Theis would singlehandedly command the defense as well as Gasol did, lock up Embiid and Vucevic, make Giannis' life a living hell, AND still be able to stick around on the floor against the Warriors?

Yeah can't agree with that statement either. 2019 we wouldn't have won with Theis, and more importantly not with JV. Marc was a unique combo of big man defense, defensive quarterback, and elite passer at the other end. Just Philly alone, we don't beat them with anyone but Gasol stifling Embiid.

Gasol was...maybe fourth most important player on the team? I'd put Kawhi, Lowry, and Siakam up against anyone else's top three in those playoffs, and the Raptors depth was good as well. Raptors had a better on/off with Ibaka than Gasol during those playoffs, including against the 76ers. Gasol was a solid defender and savvy veteran, but clearly slowing. Theis would have been a solid defender as well, with better mobility, but less veteran savvy. I don't think it's clear either way.

"...we don't beat them with anyone but Gasol stifling Embiid." 34-year-old Gasol was the only guy in the league who could have been the Raptors fourth best player that year??

You can call Gasol our 4th best player if you want but only because the 2019 team was so loaded. I maintain that his elite passing and playmaking combined with elite defense anchoring and guarding bigs, especially Embiid, that package was critical to our title win. It's silly to say couldn't someone else have been our 4th best player, the real point is who else in the league could have provided what he did at both ends including stopping Embiid. Hard to think of another center who could have done it. Theis comes up short, literally, at both ends compared to 2019 Gasol.

2020 may well have been a different story as the other Los said, but 2019 Gasol was crucial to our championship

[WaltFrazier]

I always admired how Looney in 2019 playing in a lot of pain against us. Tough guy. Nice to see him killing it lately these playoffs. Making the Warriors not a small ball team but one with a traditional center.

[Los_29]

I always admired how Looney in 2019 playing in a lot of pain against us. Tough guy. Nice to see him killing it lately these playoffs. Making the Warriors not a small ball team but one with a traditional center.

Stop it, Walt.

[Westside Gunn]

Can we include Siakam into the mix as well? He's a champ but being a 3rd or 4th option.

Game may have changed since the Carter days, but you will never succeed with a big alone.

[Los_29]

Can we include Siakam into the mix as well? He's a champ but being a 3rd or 4th option.

Game may have changed since the Carter days, but you will never succeed with a big alone.

Isn’t this about centers? Pascal isn’t a center. He was also the 2nd option on a championship team not 3rd or 4th. Or were you referring to someone else?

[Johnny Bball]

I always admired how Looney in 2019 playing in a lot of pain against us. Tough guy. Nice to see him killing it lately these playoffs. Making the Warriors not a small ball team but one with a traditional center.

Stop it, Walt.

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

its the era of space and pace and switching defences. It's not the era of rebounding through one guy, pounding the ball in for inefficient posts ups.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor, and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white. If you can get an elite centre that helps with space pace and switching, you take him. If you can't then play smallball like everyone else left in the playoffs, and have bigger centres off the bench to eat fouls/minutes.

[Los_29]

I always admired how Looney in 2019 playing in a lot of pain against us. Tough guy. Nice to see him killing it lately these playoffs. Making the Warriors not a small ball team but one with a traditional center.

Stop it, Walt.

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

Era of space and pace and switching defences.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white.

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Yeah unfortunately for Walt, these playoffs have not been great for traditional bigs. They are becoming obsolete.

[Johnny Bball]

Stop it, Walt.

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

Era of space and pace and switching defences.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white.

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Yeah unfortunately for Walt, these playoffs have not been great for traditional bigs. They are becoming obsolete.

They haven't been kind to that idea for ten years now.

[WaltFrazier]

Stop it, Walt.

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

Era of space and pace and switching defences.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white.

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Yeah unfortunately for Walt, these playoffs have not been great for traditional bigs. They are becoming obsolete.

I'm confused here, I thought Looney is the type of smaller C you like. I just heard both Kerr and Kidd praise him postgame for being switchable, among other things like effort, hitting the boards. 21 points tonight, and playing big which hurt the Mavs smallball lineup. 22 rebounds vs Memphis in the closeout game, that's pretty good isn't it? I like him because he plays like a bigger, inside C, plays taller than his height. And he also does all the small ball things you guys like, no? Except shoot 3's, I get that. But wouldn't he be a great C on our team, platooning with Precious? I know we're not getting him, just saying.

Obviously Birch couldn't be on GSW doing the things Looney does. I don't think Precious could either, right now. Maybe in 2 years Precious could.

Johnny, you said:

slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition.

But that's not Looney so I don't see your point.

[Johnny Bball]

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

Era of space and pace and switching defences.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white.

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Yeah unfortunately for Walt, these playoffs have not been great for traditional bigs. They are becoming obsolete.

I'm confused here, I thought Looney is the type of smaller C you like. I just heard both Kerr and Kidd praise him postgame for being switchable, among other things like effort, hitting the boards. 21 points tonight, and playing big which hurt the Mavs smallball lineup. 22 rebounds vs Memphis in the closeout game, that's pretty good isn't it? I like him because he plays like a bigger, inside C, plays taller than his height. And he also does all the small ball things you guys like, no? Except shoot 3's, I get that. But wouldn't he be a great C on our team, platooning with Precious? I know we're not getting him, just saying.

Obviously Birch couldn't be on GSW doing the things Looney does. I don't think Precious could either, right now. Maybe in 2 years Precious could.

Johnny, you said:

slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition.

But that's not Looney so I don't see your point.

He's a 6' 9" smallball backup centre that would not be closing the game under normal circumstances. Tell me how that varies against anything I just said. Are you going to try and understand anything posted here or argue minutiae about specific players trying to find an outlier?

[WaltFrazier]

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Yeah unfortunately for Walt, these playoffs have not been great for traditional bigs. They are becoming obsolete.

I'm confused here, I thought Looney is the type of smaller C you like. I just heard both Kerr and Kidd praise him postgame for being switchable, among other things like effort, hitting the boards. 21 points tonight, and playing big which hurt the Mavs smallball lineup. 22 rebounds vs Memphis in the closeout game, that's pretty good isn't it? I like him because he plays like a bigger, inside C, plays taller than his height. And he also does all the small ball things you guys like, no? Except shoot 3's, I get that. But wouldn't he be a great C on our team, platooning with Precious? I know we're not getting him, just saying.

Obviously Birch couldn't be on GSW doing the things Looney does. I don't think Precious could either, right now. Maybe in 2 years Precious could.

Johnny, you said:

slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition.

But that's not Looney so I don't see your point.

He's a 6' 9" smallball backup centre that would not be closing the game under normal circumstances. Tell me how that varies against anything I just said. Are you going to try and understand anything posted here or argue minutiae about specific players trying to find an outlier?

I actually meant to post it in the NBA thread, posted here by mistake and left it. I was just observing that a guy had a very good game tonight, and other good games recently. He's an important player on a possible championship team, not some scrub.

I understand everything you say about centers, I just don't always agree with it. But in this particular case, I merely posted about Looney, and you came in with your litany about lumbering centers, which didn't make sense in this instance.

None of this is personal, it's just talk.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Looney isn't a scrub, but he's still averaging < 20 minutes/g in the playoffs. I'm looking at the bigs that are averaging significant minutes in the playoffs still and there aren't that many. It's Horford, Bam, Grant Williams, Tucker, Kleber, Green. So 4 guys that just stand outside the 3 point line and Bam, who is scoring about 5 points less a night and seems to be actively hurting their offense in the playoffs, and then Draymond who is a hall of famer.

[ash_k]

The Utah Jazz have a 45-62 record without Rudy Gobert all-time.
It is still a big men game the last 2 seasons MVP voting (last season Curry had no business being ahead of Giannis in MVP votings)
1.Jokic
2. Embiid
3. Giannis

If it was not for injuries, the Eastern Conference Finals would be 'Sixers vs Bucks'
Jokic , Murray and MPJ would be in the Western Conference Finals, today

I just cant wait to find out what Vice Chairman's OBVIOUS NEED FOR RIM PROTECTION turns into. (Turner?Bamba with 10LBS?)

I think some have gotten the information about Looney C and Draymond PF. It took a while

[ATLTimekeeper]

I'm thinking more about non-shooting bigs. Hell, even Precious played almost 28 minutes a night in the playoffs. Looney is averaging under 20.

[Westside Gunn]

Can we include Siakam into the mix as well? He's a champ but being a 3rd or 4th option.

Game may have changed since the Carter days, but you will never succeed with a big alone.

Isn’t this about centers? Pascal isn’t a center. He was also the 2nd option on a championship team not 3rd or 4th. Or were you referring to someone else?

Even if it is about C's it doesn't change anything. My point most likely remains.

I would argue he was the 3rd/4th option. After Kawhi and Lowry.

[Los_29]

Can we include Siakam into the mix as well? He's a champ but being a 3rd or 4th option.

Game may have changed since the Carter days, but you will never succeed with a big alone.

Isn’t this about centers? Pascal isn’t a center. He was also the 2nd option on a championship team not 3rd or 4th. Or were you referring to someone else?

Even if it is about C's it doesn't change anything. My point most likely remains.

I would argue he was the 3rd/4th option. After Kawhi and Lowry.

You can't argue that because it's factually incorrect. Pascal was the clear #2 in the playoffs. You can argue that Lowry was the 2nd best player or the 2nd most important player though.

And no the point still doesn't remain because this is about centers not about athletic, versatile forwards. LOL.

[Wannabe MEP]

Looney closes the game ONLY because 6'7" centre Draymond Green fouled out.

Era of space and pace and switching defences.

So what players do we want? Derp... slowest centres that can't guard 1-5, can't space the floor and don't run in transition. Makes total sense.

Or, do you stack the team with very large wings that can rotate at playing centre in closing time that can do all three.

Real tough decision here. And it is black and white.

Absolutely but I would also never consider Looney a traditional center. He was a power forward in college and in his scouting reports coming out of college he was considered a small ball center.

Golden State is interesting. I like the blueprint:

• Starting "center" costs $5 million, and was scouted as a PF. Limited on offense, but versatile on defense. 238 minutes in the playoffs so far.
• Starting "PF" costs $24 million, and plays small-ball center frequently. Also versatile on defense. 391 playoff minutes, significant chunk at C.
• Backup "center" costs $2 million. 85 playoff minutes.

Of their six most used lineups in the playoffs, four have Green at C, including their most used lineup (Curry-Poole-Klay-Wiggins-Green).

I like Achiuwa in the Looney role. Draymond Green is unique, but Raptors can approximate Green/Wiggins/Porter with Siakam/Barnes/OG.