Vecenie: Suggs is the #2 prospect in this draft

[UcanUwill]

I really need to see how this Sengun pans out. So many hardcore believers and I don't see it.

Enes Kanter 2.0

He will be Domantas Sabonis at worst, guy is incredible talent, at age 18 already won league MVP and dominated adult pros on both ends, looked better than many NBAers in fiba, including mentioned Domantas SAbonis, but people love to put ceiling on a kid like that. Luka also was Joe Ingles 2.0 muahaha, some people have learned nothing from the past and will make same mistakes, cant wait to see how many MArvin Bagleys of his own this kids gonna have.

[Badonkadonk]

If y’all are this high on Suggs and we draft him…well I hope this fanbase treats him better than they do Siakam when it becomes clear that the fan expectations are beyond the player’s skill level.

Gilbert Arenas was absolutely right about Suggs. He’s a really good piece, a high level piece, but not a takeover the game kind of guy which is exactly the guy we are missing.

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

[aminiaturebuddha]

If y’all are this high on Suggs and we draft him…well I hope this fanbase treats him better than they do Siakam when it becomes clear that the fan expectations are beyond the player’s skill level.

Gilbert Arenas was absolutely right about Suggs. He’s a really good piece, a high level piece, but not a takeover the game kind of guy which is exactly the guy we are missing.

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Agreed that the "trigger happy" thing doesn't make any sense, as he's one of the most unselfish players in the draft. I love Suggs, and he's the guy I'm actually hoping we end up with. But I do think there are legitimate questions about his ability to get separation at times against super athletic defenders (the kind he'll usually face in the NBA). I'm not sure that he'll necessarily be the kind of guy you can just give the ball to at the end of the game and say, "go get a bucket".

That said, I still think that he'd be an incredible addition to the Raptors, and make them a better team. I'm also on record as saying that just handing a guy the ball and expecting him to go one-on-one to get a bucket is a stupid end-of-game strategy anyway, no matter who is on your team (short of Michael Jordan). So I think it's fair to say that Suggs probably won't be a Jordan/Kobe/Dame type end of the game scorer, but I also don't see that as a serious concern or weakness.

[bballsparkin]

Sorry we are striking distance of Mobley and people want to still Sengun troll even after we moved to 4. If that's a crystal ball...

I wouldn't pick him at 4 either. Then again I'm not a professional scout. I was talking more about posts like this:

Sengun will not go before Spurs at 12 trust me.

That sounds like some crystal ball type stuff to me. It's possible you're right. I think he's in play likely starting pick #6 on. With his production and size at such a young age I don't see why he can't have a Sabonis type of impact.

[HiJiNX]

If y’all are this high on Suggs and we draft him…well I hope this fanbase treats him better than they do Siakam when it becomes clear that the fan expectations are beyond the player’s skill level.

Gilbert Arenas was absolutely right about Suggs. He’s a really good piece, a high level piece, but not a takeover the game kind of guy which is exactly the guy we are missing.

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

I agree completely. I LIKE Suggs. I just feel our fanbase on this board are overhyping him due to our bias as fans influencing our opinions about the player we are most likely to select. I, however, think it’s important to temper our expectations and listen to the data which says Suggs is a hard-working, athletic, smart, winning kind of player but he’s not a natural scorer or super creative in the half court. And while some players are able to develop that creativity in the league (ex. Kawhi probably being the best recent example), again if we look at the data, that kind of transformation from mediocre scorer to elite is rare.

But yeah, Suggs is probably the best player available at 4 so you gotta take him.

[HiJiNX]

If y’all are this high on Suggs and we draft him…well I hope this fanbase treats him better than they do Siakam when it becomes clear that the fan expectations are beyond the player’s skill level.

Gilbert Arenas was absolutely right about Suggs. He’s a really good piece, a high level piece, but not a takeover the game kind of guy which is exactly the guy we are missing.

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

[Hero_Panda]

I really need to see how this Sengun pans out. So many hardcore believers and I don't see it.

Enes Kanter 2.0

He will be Domantas Sabonis at worst, guy is incredible talent, at age 18 already won league MVP and dominated adult pros on both ends, looked better than many NBAers in fiba, including mentioned Domantas SAbonis, but people love to put ceiling on a kid like that. Luka also was Joe Ingles 2.0 muahaha, some people have learned nothing from the past and will make same mistakes, cant wait to see how many MArvin Bagleys of his own this kids gonna have.

Would you draft Sengun over any one of Green, Mobley or Suggs?

[Badonkadonk]

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

What does it say that Suggs has more big-game plays (especially the Espy nominated UCLA OT buzzer-beater) than the other 3 guys, arguably combined? Do you realize that 'winner' and 'clutch' are generally attributed to Suggs as part of his scouting profile?

If you're arguing that he hasn't shown the ability to step up, then who would quality as having this as a demonstrated trait?

I just find it as a weird thing to have in the 'negatives' column for a guy who has demonstrated the opposite more than his peers. Shooting? Sure. Creativity in his handle? I get it. I just don't see this one.

[UcanUwill]

Enes Kanter 2.0

He will be Domantas Sabonis at worst, guy is incredible talent, at age 18 already won league MVP and dominated adult pros on both ends, looked better than many NBAers in fiba, including mentioned Domantas SAbonis, but people love to put ceiling on a kid like that. Luka also was Joe Ingles 2.0 muahaha, some people have learned nothing from the past and will make same mistakes, cant wait to see how many MArvin Bagleys of his own this kids gonna have.

Would you draft Sengun over any one of Green, Mobley or Suggs?

Not over Green or Suggs.

[Hero_Panda]

He will be Domantas Sabonis at worst, guy is incredible talent, at age 18 already won league MVP and dominated adult pros on both ends, looked better than many NBAers in fiba, including mentioned Domantas SAbonis, but people love to put ceiling on a kid like that. Luka also was Joe Ingles 2.0 muahaha, some people have learned nothing from the past and will make same mistakes, cant wait to see how many MArvin Bagleys of his own this kids gonna have.

Would you draft Sengun over any one of Green, Mobley or Suggs?

Not over Green or Suggs.

Initial reaction



and then realizing who you left off

[Yallbecrazy]

Thanks for judging before they've even played a game. I'm sure if someone put Giannis #1 in 2013 they would have been ridiculed.

I'm rooting for Segun just to prove OAKLEY's "crystal ball" and "relentless dogging" wrong.

Sorry we are striking distance of Mobley and people want to still Sengun troll even after we moved to 4. If that's a crystal ball...

Mobley is my #1 by a decent margin, Sengun is my #2 by a decent margin over #3, I want Mobley, but if we can figure out a way to get both...dino championship time incoming.

It's not a troll, going strictly by production, age, and competition Sengun has better stats than anyone in the past couple decades except for maybe Luka (worse stats, better competition for Luka). If he's not your#1 you are shorting his archetype by a lot. If he's not in your top 5 you are shorting his archetype by an unprecedented amount. Not in your top 10...you're just clueless

[OAKLEY_2]

He will be Domantas Sabonis at worst, guy is incredible talent, at age 18 already won league MVP and dominated adult pros on both ends, looked better than many NBAers in fiba, including mentioned Domantas SAbonis, but people love to put ceiling on a kid like that. Luka also was Joe Ingles 2.0 muahaha, some people have learned nothing from the past and will make same mistakes, cant wait to see how many MArvin Bagleys of his own this kids gonna have.

Would you draft Sengun over any one of Green, Mobley or Suggs?

Not over Green or Suggs.

Sengun. A 10 on the Troll meter. A 12 in the lotto. Barnes is a discussion worth having if only to package off that selectqion elsewhere in a big trade.

[nowayguy]

You maybe right that Suggs isn't a "takeover the game" kind of guy. And I really hope people are patient with him if we end up drafting him (although we know that isn't going to happen). But I think it's fair to ask who are those types of players in this year's draft? I see two - Cade (he did it a lot at the end of games in college) and Green.

Maybe there's a chance that someone else in the draft miraculously develops into that, but odds are no one else will. Since we're unlikely to be in a position to draft Cade or Green, I think the best we can do is pick an excellent player that won't solve all our problems, but will lift the overall level of the team and add another quality asset to put us in position for potential trades down the road. At this point it seems the two guys best able to fit that profile would be Suggs or Mobley. I'll be very happy with either.

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

Suggs dropped 22 on over 50% shooting despite getting in foul trouble early. Fair enough to say he didn't have his best game but "shutdown" doesn't align with reality.

[HiJiNX]

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

What does it say that Suggs has more big-game plays (especially the Espy nominated UCLA OT buzzer-beater) than the other 3 guys, arguably combined? Do you realize that 'winner' and 'clutch' are generally attributed to Suggs as part of his scouting profile?

If you're arguing that he hasn't shown the ability to step up, then who would quality as having this as a demonstrated trait?

I just find it as a weird thing to have in the 'negatives' column for a guy who has demonstrated the opposite more than his peers. Shooting? Sure. Creativity in his handle? I get it. I just don't see this one.

Your last paragraph aligns with exactly what I’m arguing—I don’t trust you’re going to be able to give Suggs the ball late in a game and say, “go get me three consecutive buckets” to win the game. I have consistently said he’s a player that has a winning mentality. My concern is his ability to create shots against tight defence. If he doesn’t make that big three against UCLA (in which he was getting outplayed by Johnny Juzang late in the game) then the narrative looks completely different. In fact, if you go back and watch that overtime period what you’ll see is Suggs not doing much at all until that big shot. Props to him for making it but his team probably doesn’t need that if he wasn’t bad for most of that overtime.

But again, just to be clear, my issue with Suggs is his mediocrity in shot creation ability. It seems all the scouting profiles that you’re leaning your argument on agree with me. Currently, it’s not there and I don’t expect him to be able to magically develop that ability since historically, especially at the guard position, it’s been rare to see that transformation happen in the NBA. In fact, the opposite is usually true—players who could create their own in college suddenly can’t do it in the NBA.

[HiJiNX]

Arenas only exposes himself as somebody who did zero due diligence on Suggs.

One of Suggs' positives is that he actually HAS taken over in big moments, not just at Gonzaga but he has a consistent history of it.

Some very strange comments being thrown around here. Suggs definitely has his concerns, as do all the top 4 guys, but it's downright bizarre seeing things like "trigger happy" and "doesn't take over" when he has far more of an established resume in those areas than the other guys

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

Suggs dropped 22 on over 50% shooting despite getting in foul trouble early. Fair enough to say he didn't have his best game but "shutdown" doesn't align with reality.

I think shut down does align with reality because Suggs couldn’t get Gonzaga into their offence because of the defence played by Mitchell. Once Suggs was neutralized all Baylor had to do was make things difficult for Drew Timme and the game was theirs.

I wasn’t surprised to see Gonzaga or Suggs struggle against that Baylor defence because Baylor had a bunch of long players with NBA calibre athleticism. Anyway, my point is that while that game was still in the balance, Davion Mitchell made Suggs look not very good, average at best if we are being generous. Stats don’t always tell the whole story as I’m sure you know.

EDIT:

Here’s the first half game flow of the Baylor/Gonzaga national championship game. Hopefully this shows up semi-legibly. But anyway what you will see is Suggs doesn’t make a positive play until deep into the first half. His first seven plays were either fouls, missed shots, or turnovers.

TIME TEAM PLAY SCORE
20:00 Jump Ball won by Baylor 0 - 0
19:39 Mark Vital missed Jumper. 0 - 0
19:39 Mark Vital Offensive Rebound. 0 - 0
19:36 Mark Vital missed Jumper. 0 - 0
19:36 Mark Vital Offensive Rebound. 0 - 0
19:27 Davion Mitchell made Jumper. 2 - 0
19:06 Jalen Suggs missed Three Point Jumper. 2 - 0
19:06 Davion Mitchell Defensive Rebound. 2 - 0
18:42 MaCio Teague missed Jumper. 2 - 0
18:42 Mark Vital Offensive Rebound. 2 - 0
18:33 Jared Butler made Layup. Assisted by Mark Vital. 4 - 0
18:26 Foul on Jalen Suggs. 4 - 0
18:26 Jalen Suggs Turnover. 4 - 0
18:12 Davion Mitchell made Three Point Jumper. 7 - 0
17:58 Corey Kispert missed Three Point Jumper. 7 - 0
17:58 Gonzaga Offensive Rebound. 7 - 0
17:45 Andrew Nembhard Turnover. 7 - 0
17:29 Jared Butler made Layup. 9 - 0
17:13 Jalen Suggs missed Jumper. 9 - 0
17:13 MaCio Teague Block. 9 - 0
17:13 Baylor Defensive Rebound. 9 - 0
16:56 Foul on Jalen Suggs. 9 - 0
16:38 Flo Thamba missed Layup. 9 - 0
16:38 Flo Thamba Offensive Rebound. 9 - 0
16:21 Davion Mitchell missed Jumper. 9 - 0
16:21 Drew Timme Defensive Rebound. 9 - 0
16:16 Foul on Jared Butler. 9 - 0
16:16 Andrew Nembhard missed Free Throw. 9 - 0
16:16 Gonzaga Deadball Team Rebound. 9 - 0
16:16 Andrew Nembhard made Free Throw. 9 - 1
15:59 Davion Mitchell made Jumper. Assisted by Adam Flagler. 11 - 1
15:30 Official TV Timeout 11 - 1
15:29 Corey Kispert made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Joel Ayayi. 11 - 4
15:09 Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua made Layup. Assisted by Jared Butler. 13 - 4
14:37 Joel Ayayi missed Layup. 13 - 4
14:37 Matthew Mayer Defensive Rebound. 13 - 4
14:29 Jared Butler made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Davion Mitchell. 16 - 4
14:25 Gonzaga Timeout 16 - 4
14:25 Official TV Timeout 16 - 4
14:13 Drew Timme made Layup. Assisted by Aaron Cook. 16 - 6
13:56 Foul on Corey Kispert. 16 - 6
13:56 Adam Flagler made Free Throw. 17 - 6
13:56 Adam Flagler made Free Throw. 18 - 6
13:47 Drew Timme Turnover. 18 - 6
13:47 Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua Steal. 18 - 6
13:42 Davion Mitchell missed Layup. 18 - 6
13:42 Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua Offensive Rebound. 18 - 6
13:37 Adam Flagler made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua. 21 - 6
13:14 Andrew Nembhard made Jumper. 21 - 8
12:57 Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua made Dunk. Assisted by Matthew Mayer. 23 - 8
12:37 Aaron Cook Turnover. 23 - 8
12:37 Davion Mitchell Steal. 23 - 8
12:27 Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua missed Jumper. 23 - 8
12:27 Corey Kispert Defensive Rebound. 23 - 8
12:11 Drew Timme Turnover. 23 - 8
12:11 Matthew Mayer Steal. 23 - 8
11:50 Davion Mitchell missed Layup. 23 - 8
11:50 Drew Timme Block. 23 - 8
11:50 Aaron Cook Defensive Rebound. 23 - 8
11:42 Foul on Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua. 23 - 8
11:42 Official TV Timeout 23 - 8
11:42 Andrew Nembhard made Free Throw. 23 - 9
11:42 Andrew Nembhard made Free Throw. 23 - 10
11:24 Adam Flagler missed Jumper. 23 - 10
11:24 Adam Flagler Offensive Rebound. 23 - 10
11:15 Jump Ball won by Gonzaga 23 - 10
11:15 Adam Flagler Turnover. 23 - 10
11:15 Anton Watson Steal. 23 - 10
11:04 Corey Kispert missed Layup. 23 - 10
11:04 Flo Thamba Block. 23 - 10
11:04 Gonzaga Offensive Rebound. 23 - 10
10:58 Anton Watson missed Layup. 23 - 10
10:58 Flo Thamba Defensive Rebound. 23 - 10
10:52 Jared Butler made Three Point Jumper. 26 - 10
10:42 Foul on Adam Flagler. 26 - 10
10:24 Jump Ball won by Baylor 26 - 10
10:24 Jalen Suggs Turnover. 26 - 10
10:24 Mark Vital Steal. 26 - 10
10:09 MaCio Teague made Three Point Jumper. 29 - 10
9:45 Drew Timme made Jumper. Assisted by Corey Kispert. 29 - 12
9:18 MaCio Teague missed Jumper. 29 - 12
9:18 Baylor Offensive Rebound. 29 - 12
9:07 Foul on Anton Watson. 29 - 12
9:03 Foul on Flo Thamba. 29 - 12
9:03 Flo Thamba Turnover. 29 - 12
8:55 Drew Timme missed Layup. 29 - 12
8:55 Jared Butler Defensive Rebound. 29 - 12
8:48 Jared Butler missed Three Point Jumper. 29 - 12
8:48 Jalen Suggs Defensive Rebound. 29 - 12
8:41 Drew Timme made Dunk. Assisted by Jalen Suggs. 29 - 14
8:18 MaCio Teague made Jumper. 31 - 14
8:10 Foul on Drew Timme. 31 - 14
8:10 Drew Timme Turnover. 31 - 14
7:56 Jared Butler missed Three Point Jumper. 31 - 14
7:56 Gonzaga Deadball Team Rebound. 31 - 14
7:50 Foul on Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua. 31 - 14
7:50 Official TV Timeout 31 - 14
7:28 Jalen Suggs Turnover. 31 - 14
7:28 Mark Vital Steal. 31 - 14
7:23 MaCio Teague made Layup. Assisted by Mark Vital. 33 - 14
7:08 Foul on Davion Mitchell. 33 - 14
7:07 Corey Kispert missed Three Point Jumper. 33 - 14
7:07 Matthew Mayer Defensive Rebound. 33 - 14
6:57 Matthew Mayer missed Three Point Jumper. 33 - 14
6:57 Andrew Nembhard Defensive Rebound. 33 - 14
6:47 Foul on Jared Butler. 33 - 14
6:47 Jalen Suggs made Free Throw. 33 - 15
6:47 Jalen Suggs made Free Throw. 33 - 16
6:31 Mark Vital missed Layup. 33 - 16
6:31 Mark Vital Offensive Rebound. 33 - 16
6:28 Mark Vital made Layup. 35 - 16
6:17 Drew Timme made Layup. Assisted by Andrew Nembhard. 35 - 18
5:57 Adam Flagler missed Jumper. 35 - 18
5:57 Baylor Deadball Team Rebound. 35 - 18
5:56 Foul on Andrew Nembhard. 35 - 18
5:45 Davion Mitchell Turnover. 35 - 18
5:33 Jalen Suggs made Layup. 35 - 20
4:56 Davion Mitchell missed Three Point Jumper. 35 - 20
4:56 Drew Timme Defensive Rebound. 35 - 20
4:51 Jump Ball won by Gonzaga 35 - 20
4:37 Foul on Flo Thamba. 35 - 20
4:37 Joel Ayayi made Free Throw. 35 - 21
4:37 Joel Ayayi made Free Throw. 35 - 22
4:24 Adam Flagler made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Davion Mitchell. 38 - 22
4:10 Corey Kispert made Jumper. Assisted by Jalen Suggs. 38 - 24
3:50 Davion Mitchell Turnover. 38 - 24
3:50 Corey Kispert Steal. 38 - 24
3:46 Joel Ayayi made Dunk. Assisted by Corey Kispert. 38 - 26
3:41 Baylor Timeout 38 - 26
3:41 Official TV Timeout 38 - 26
3:22 MaCio Teague made Jumper. Assisted by Jared Butler. 40 - 26
3:08 Jalen Suggs missed Three Point Jumper. 40 - 26
3:08 Jared Butler Defensive Rebound. 40 - 26
3:01 MaCio Teague made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Jared Butler. 43 - 26
2:40 Corey Kispert made Layup. Assisted by Drew Timme. 43 - 28
2:16 MaCio Teague made Jumper. Assisted by Davion Mitchell. 45 - 28
1:58 Andrew Nembhard missed Three Point Jumper. 45 - 28
1:58 Joel Ayayi Offensive Rebound. 45 - 28
1:48 Foul on Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua. 45 - 28
1:48 Andrew Nembhard made Free Throw. 45 - 29
1:48 Andrew Nembhard made Free Throw. 45 - 30
1:35 MaCio Teague missed Jumper. 45 - 30
1:35 Mark Vital Offensive Rebound. 45 - 30
1:30 MaCio Teague missed Jumper. 45 - 30
1:30 Corey Kispert Defensive Rebound. 45 - 30
1:20 Foul on Mark Vital. 45 - 30
1:20 Drew Timme made Free Throw. 45 - 31
1:20 Drew Timme made Free Throw. 45 - 32
0:58 Mark Vital made Layup. Assisted by Jared Butler. 47 - 32
0:38 Jalen Suggs made Jumper. 47 - 34
0:38 Foul on Mark Vital. 47 - 34
0:38 Jalen Suggs made Free Throw. 47 - 35
0:07 Davion Mitchell missed Three Point Jumper. 47 - 35
0:07 Baylor Deadball Team Rebound. 47 - 35
0:07 Baylor Turnover. 47 - 35
0:02 Anton Watson made Layup. Assisted by Andrew Nembhard. 47 - 37
0:00 End of 1st half 47 - 37

[nowayguy]

Suggs didn’t take over anything in the biggest game of his life this far. Instead he got shut down by Davion Mitchell who made Suggs look extra regular on offence. Now what is Davion Mitchell? Very strong and athletic, the kind of defender Suggs is likely to see on a nightly basis in the league. Never mind Suggs disappearing in the final four game before hitting the big 3 (which, btw, was not out of a half court set).

You see, what I see is a guy who might have the mentality to step up in big moments but that doesn’t mean he has the ability to go and get you a bucket consistently in crunch time. I don’t care how much he wants to do it, I care about him actually being able to do it and I just don’t see that in his game. And developing the ability to create shots for yourself while playing against the biggest, strongest, fastest defenders in the world up until this point has been quite rare. Is it possible? Yeah, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

That doesn’t mean I don’t think Suggs will be a fine player—I think he will be. I just don’t want us to imagine he’s something he’s not and then get disappointed/hateful when he doesn’t live up to expectations he never should have had.

Suggs dropped 22 on over 50% shooting despite getting in foul trouble early. Fair enough to say he didn't have his best game but "shutdown" doesn't align with reality.

I think shut down does align with reality because Suggs couldn’t get Gonzaga into their offence because of the defence played by Mitchell. Once Suggs was neutralized all Baylor had to do was make things difficult for Drew Timme and the game was theirs.

I wasn’t surprised to see Gonzaga or Suggs struggle against that Baylor defence because Baylor had a bunch of long players with NBA calibre athleticism. Anyway, my point is that while that game was still in the balance, Davion Mitchell made Suggs look not very good, average at best if we are being generous. Stats don’t always tell the whole story as I’m sure you know.

Yeah, you're wrong. Suggs had a BPM of 11, Davion at 6. Butler was actually the guy putting in the work for Baylor. Suggs was the only starter on Gonzaga who played at a high enough level to win the game.

Baylor did a great job on D and forced enough turnovers to negate Gonzaga have the better shooting performance. Offensive rebounding and three point scoring were probably the biggest difference makers that game. Gonzaga had enough good looks that if they shot better from three, the game would have been closer but Baylor still wins.

Eye-test doesn't always tell the whole story as I'm sure you know.

[HiJiNX]

Suggs dropped 22 on over 50% shooting despite getting in foul trouble early. Fair enough to say he didn't have his best game but "shutdown" doesn't align with reality.

I think shut down does align with reality because Suggs couldn’t get Gonzaga into their offence because of the defence played by Mitchell. Once Suggs was neutralized all Baylor had to do was make things difficult for Drew Timme and the game was theirs.

I wasn’t surprised to see Gonzaga or Suggs struggle against that Baylor defence because Baylor had a bunch of long players with NBA calibre athleticism. Anyway, my point is that while that game was still in the balance, Davion Mitchell made Suggs look not very good, average at best if we are being generous. Stats don’t always tell the whole story as I’m sure you know.

Yeah, you're wrong. Suggs had a BPM of 11, Davion at 6. Butler was actually the guy putting in the work for Baylor. Suggs was the only starter on Gonzaga who played at a high enough level to win the game.

Baylor did a great job on D and forced enough turnovers to negate Gonzaga have the better shooting performance. Offensive rebounding and three point scoring were probably the biggest difference makers that game. Gonzaga had enough good looks that if they shot better from three, the game would have been closer but Baylor still wins.

Eye-test doesn't always tell the whole story as I'm sure you know.

Well I just edited my post above with the game flow from the first half. I bolded all plays involving Suggs, good or bad. You tell me what you see.

[nowayguy]

The Gonzaga-Baylor game is available on Youtube, if you want to draw your own conclusions

Watch on YouTube

.

I think Suggs underestimated Baylor. Absolutely, Mitchell got the better of him early on and Suggs wasn't ready for the quickness. He takes two fouls in the first few minutes and he's in trouble. Suggs goes to the bench and wasn't able to successfully integrate himself into the offense in the first half.

Comes out in the second half, adjusts to Baylor's defense and plays well but not nearly well enough to win.

[HiJiNX]

Here’s the play by play game flow from the OT period vs UCLA. I misremembered Juzang’s play in that OT (he had slowed down by then) but I didn’t misremember Suggs disappearing until he made the big three.

TIME TEAM PLAY SCORE
5:00 Jump Ball won by Gonzaga 81 - 81
4:51 Drew Timme made Layup. Assisted by Jalen Suggs. 81 - 83
4:51 Foul on Cody Riley. 81 - 83
4:51 Drew Timme missed Free Throw. 81 - 83
4:51 Jaime Jaquez Jr. Defensive Rebound. 81 - 83
4:22 Cody Riley made Jumper. Assisted by Jules Bernard. 83 - 83
3:58 Drew Timme made Layup. Assisted by Andrew Nembhard. 83 - 85
3:41 Jaime Jaquez Jr. missed Jumper. 83 - 85
3:41 Corey Kispert Defensive Rebound. 83 - 85
3:20 Drew Timme made Layup. 83 - 87
3:13 UCLA Timeout 83 - 87
3:03 Foul on Anton Watson. 83 - 87
3:03 Cody Riley missed Free Throw. 83 - 87
3:03 Joel Ayayi Defensive Rebound. 83 - 87
2:36 Joel Ayayi missed Three Point Jumper. 83 - 87
2:36 Cody Riley Defensive Rebound. 83 - 87
2:09 Cody Riley made Jumper. Assisted by Tyger Campbell. 85 - 87
1:43 Corey Kispert Turnover. 85 - 87
1:43 Johnny Juzang Steal. 85 - 87
1:39 Johnny Juzang missed Jumper. 85 - 87
1:39 Drew Timme Defensive Rebound. 85 - 87
1:32 Gonzaga Timeout 85 - 87
1:17 Andrew Nembhard made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Corey Kispert. 85 - 90
0:57 UCLA Timeout 85 - 90
0:50 Jaime Jaquez Jr. made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Tyger Campbell. 88 - 90
0:22 Corey Kispert missed Three Point Jumper. 88 - 90
0:22 David Singleton Defensive Rebound. 88 - 90
0:06 Johnny Juzang missed Jumper. 88 - 90
0:06 Johnny Juzang Offensive Rebound. 88 - 90
0:03 Johnny Juzang made Layup. 90 - 90
0:01 Jalen Suggs made Three Point Jumper. Assisted by Corey Kispert. 90 - 93
0:00 End of Game 90 - 93

I’m not just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

[nowayguy]

I think you need to remember that Suggs was third on the pecking-order at Gonzaga and for good reason. This team won every game except for one. Mark Few knows how to win college basketball games.

Few made the right call and said get the ball to Timme in overtime. You combine that with a clutch three-pointer from Nembhard and they put Suggs in position to hit the shot. Imagine deferring to a Freshman in overtime when its been proven time and time again that upperclassmen at the guard positions win NCAA championships.