[Wolfson] Toronto Raptors are a team to keep an eye on

[Raptors Realtor]

Time is a resource just like money.

What is the opportunity cost of keeping Dragic? What would we have done with this "time" that would've been rectified by buying him out? I don't get this line of thinking.

When you choose one option among many alternatives, the opportunity cost is the hypothetical cost of lost benefit that could've been derived from the options you didn't choose. Time is a variable in this equation because (1) more time provides potentially for more opportunities, and (2) for each opportunity, greater time means you can enjoy the benefit for longer.

That said, I would change the narrative from opportunity cost to sunk cost. What's done is done and we should only look forward. At this point, I see greater benefit from keeping Dragic to buy time to see if any trade opportunities arise between now and the trade deadline. If nothing arises, then we buy him out and he goes to Dallas as the most likely scenario.

Pretty sure this is being overanalyzed... There's no way to conceptualize or quantify "time" as it applies here.

[YogurtProducer]

Trent is shooting 41.5% very close to career average. That doesn't cut it for a SG. At some point, people have to accept reality instead of touting his age all the time. Its his 4th season, and you need to show efficiency improvement. There's been none so far and his mediocre shot creation combined with steaky shooting makes him a trade candidate.

FG% is not really worth mentioning. FVV has shot below 41.5% in 4/6 seasons, most recently last year and 2020 and 2019.

TS% is 53.5% which is still not great at all but weirdly is the exact same as Anunoby which surprises me. That being said, his career average was 55.7% pre-Toronto so I think it will rise again.

[TRik]

One guy to look at from the wolves would be Naz Reid. He's having a good season and he's a good stretch 5 who can guard as well.

Barely have watched him, but his stats are very similar to Boucher. Not sure why they would trade him or want Boucher

I have watched quite a few Wolves games this year and Reid is undersized but a physical player who plays hard. I would not mind trading for him.

Same. Naz isn’t be used properly there as well.

[Johnny Bball]

Dragic if bought out definitely cost the raptors money this year (for the benefit of facilitating acquiring Achiuwa)

https://theathletic.com/806297/2019/02/08/picks-cash-and-roster-space-explaining-the-raptors-cap-sheet-and-deadline-deals/

Raptors traded two 2nd round picks to save money (luxury tax) back in 2018/2019 - this shows that the amount of money spent (whether above or below luxury tax) means a good deal to our FO. You may argue it's only the owner's money, but I'm sure our FO operates on a financial constraint measured not just by "did we cross the luxury tax line?" - as a fiduciary duty to the owners.

With that in mind, Achiuwa is not worth the cost of Dragic doing nothing for us (now or future) for 19M

This makes no sense at all since we aren't into the tax and it has nothing to do with us being in the repeater tax since we haven't been a tax team for years. It cost nothing but money that they allocated to spend anyway.

[NotMyKawhi]

Dragic if bought out definitely cost the raptors money this year (for the benefit of facilitating acquiring Achiuwa)

https://theathletic.com/806297/2019/02/08/picks-cash-and-roster-space-explaining-the-raptors-cap-sheet-and-deadline-deals/

Raptors traded two 2nd round picks to save money (luxury tax) back in 2018/2019 - this shows that the amount of money spent (whether above or below luxury tax) means a good deal to our FO. You may argue it's only the owner's money, but I'm sure our FO operates on a financial constraint measured not just by "did we cross the luxury tax line?" - as a fiduciary duty to the owners.

With that in mind, Achiuwa is not worth the cost of Dragic doing nothing for us (now or future) for 19M

This makes no sense at all since we aren't into the tax and it has nothing to do with us being in the repeater tax since we haven't been a tax team for years. It cost nothing but money that they allocated to spend anyway.

He's pointing out that the raptors have traded for "cash considerations" many times. Have traded 1st round picks away just to save money and get off contracts.

idc really bc we wouldn't have signed anyone good. I rather Precious than a bad contract while we are rebuilding. But I would expect ownership to prefer a buyout that saves them some money w Dragic than keep him.

[Johnny Bball]

Dragic if bought out definitely cost the raptors money this year (for the benefit of facilitating acquiring Achiuwa)

https://theathletic.com/806297/2019/02/08/picks-cash-and-roster-space-explaining-the-raptors-cap-sheet-and-deadline-deals/

Raptors traded two 2nd round picks to save money (luxury tax) back in 2018/2019 - this shows that the amount of money spent (whether above or below luxury tax) means a good deal to our FO. You may argue it's only the owner's money, but I'm sure our FO operates on a financial constraint measured not just by "did we cross the luxury tax line?" - as a fiduciary duty to the owners.

With that in mind, Achiuwa is not worth the cost of Dragic doing nothing for us (now or future) for 19M

This makes no sense at all since we aren't into the tax and it has nothing to do with us being in the repeater tax since we haven't been a tax team for years. It cost nothing but money that they allocated to spend anyway.

He's pointing out that the raptors have traded for "cash considerations" many times. Have traded 1st round picks away just to save money and get off contracts.

idc really bc we wouldn't have signed anyone good. I rather Precious than a bad contract while we are rebuilding. But I would expect ownership to prefer a buyout that saves them some money w Dragic than keep him.

They did it to avoid the repeater tax which is punitive in limiting what you can actually do in the future. It has nothing to do with saving money, it had to do with flexibility. A 2nd round pick is generally worth 5 million when they have been sold. Exceeding the repeater tax can cost far more.

i mean if he had stated that or knew it, I wouldn't argue. But his explanation does not state not why they dodged the tax in only that one single year.

and when have the raptors traded away their first round pick to avoid paying the player?

[vulture]

Barely have watched him, but his stats are very similar to Boucher. Not sure why they would trade him or want Boucher

I have watched quite a few Wolves games this year and Reid is undersized but a physical player who plays hard. I would not mind trading for him.

Same. Naz isn’t be used properly there as well.

They really don't want to pay him and they could be looking for some cap flexibility.

[mrdressup]

Boucher and Dragic for a sack of potatoes and a mistletoe.

[Raptors_128]

The trade was never about Dragic.

The Raps just needed his salary to make the Precious deal work. The deal was about acquiring Precious and the only way to make it work was to take Dragic's contract.

He hasn't been a distraction in the locker room. His salary can still be used in a large deal. I don't understand the urgency to make a move.

If the trade was taking on $19 million of dead money for Achiuwa, we got fleeced. Terrible trade.

The opportunity cost we lost out on is that we could have used the cap space to sign another player that fit the roster (Holmes) to improve the team or take on a bad contracts for picks.

We could have taken on Favors contract for a 1st AND signed Holmes.

We could have acquired Kemba Walker in a salary dump for Sengun (16th pick) who looks to be a good young player.

Those that criticize these moves always show a poor understanding of the NBA land scape an offer unrealistic alternatives. An expiring contract and a young big on a rookie deal is good value.

It seems you dont understand the value difference between an expiring contract and a player who has guaranteed money on the books in Favours. We had the cap space for Holmes as it is and still didnt sign him, what makes you think we would have if we made the deal with Uta?

How could we have executed the Kemba trade?

Bud it’s not that complicated. These are moves that actually happened, I don’t know how you can say they were unrealistic. A $19 million salary dump and a decent big on a rookie contract is not good value. You are missing the entire point about opportunity cost.

I clearly stated the potential deals that actually happened which we missed out on because we took on dead money for a marginal asset.

The first round pick is for taking on 2 years of Favors. That’s the entire point of the trade from Utah’s perspective.

We didn’t have cap space to sign Holmes because we still had Lowry’s cap hold so we couldn’t sign him.

Favours is a cap dump who could play backup C for us. Holmes would be the starting C for us. Holmes on his current contract with his current production has more value that Achiuwa. In this scenario we have now have a future 1st + Holmes who is worth more than Achiuwa. This opportunity was missed because we made the Lowry sign-and-trade.

We had $20+ mill in cap space if we renounced Lowry + Bouchers contract to match Kemba’s contract. He agreed to a $20 million buyout to go to the Knicks as well so no luxury tax concerns.

[Johnny Bball]

I'm not quoting that wall of text but how is a 28 year old Richaun Holmes who cannot make a three, and doesn't space the floor, a long term solution in any way shape or form.

[WaltFrazier]

we've heard over & again that Pascal is available. I think rehabbing his value is a top priority this season

obviously with the new core of players Pascal/FVV don't quite fit the timeline, and you have to think this team is headed to the lottery at least once more before we aim to be contenders

might make sense to blow it up now and get things fast tracked

at the same time I do think we're one star player away from being a true contender. you have to hand it to Masai, we're always in position to go move in any direction & let the market dictate what we do. other teams will be forced to make bad trades because they are in dire "win now" mode while other losing teams have nothing beyond their picks to offer to improve

I don't think it is obvious. You think in 3 years Raptors will contend with all 26 year old and under roster? and 30 year old Siakam and Fred will be too old? You will end up blowing things up to irrelevance for the next 10 years.

This. The whole "Pascal and FVV don't fit the timeline" is so nonsensical. They are 27. They have 5 good years left anyway. Teams need veterans, you can't have everyone the same age. The four man core of FVV, Pascal, OG, and Barnes are who we need to build around, anyone else is potential for trade to get better pieces.

I hope we do make some moves this season, need a shakeup/upgrade at C

[Rapsfan07]

Trent is shooting 41.5% very close to career average. That doesn't cut it for a SG. At some point, people have to accept reality instead of touting his age all the time. Its his 4th season, and you need to show efficiency improvement. There's been none so far and his mediocre shot creation combined with steaky shooting makes him a trade candidate.

Gary is shooting almost 39% from 3 on 5.6 attempts which is better than Bradley Beal's career average.

And that's cool innat, but Beal also brings more to the game. He's a better scorer than Trent and a better playmaker. Not to mention he's more efficient.

So yeah. I said this before but I think Trent is much better suited as a 6th man on a contending team.

[Merit]

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

[Merit]

we've heard over & again that Pascal is available. I think rehabbing his value is a top priority this season

obviously with the new core of players Pascal/FVV don't quite fit the timeline, and you have to think this team is headed to the lottery at least once more before we aim to be contenders

might make sense to blow it up now and get things fast tracked

at the same time I do think we're one star player away from being a true contender. you have to hand it to Masai, we're always in position to go move in any direction & let the market dictate what we do. other teams will be forced to make bad trades because they are in dire "win now" mode while other losing teams have nothing beyond their picks to offer to improve

I don't think it is obvious. You think in 3 years Raptors will contend with all 26 year old and under roster? and 30 year old Siakam and Fred will be too old? You will end up blowing things up to irrelevance for the next 10 years.

This. The whole "Pascal and FVV don't fit the timeline" is so nonsensical. They are 27. They have 5 good years left anyway. Teams need veterans, you can't have everyone the same age. The four man core of FVV, Pascal, OG, and Barnes are who we need to build around, anyone else is potential for trade to get better pieces.

I hope we do make some moves this season, need a shakeup/upgrade at C

I agree with this. Pascal, Fred, OG and Barnes are the core, and I'd add Delano and Precious to that mix. I also think that the Raptors are tanking err.. "developing" again this season. OG and Khem are the glue and reason we win as they allow us to play fully into a switching identity, thus having them out for an extended period keeps us treading water at best.

[mdenny]

If the trade was taking on $19 million of dead money for Achiuwa, we got fleeced. Terrible trade.

The opportunity cost we lost out on is that we could have used the cap space to sign another player that fit the roster (Holmes) to improve the team or take on a bad contracts for picks.

We could have taken on Favors contract for a 1st AND signed Holmes.

We could have acquired Kemba Walker in a salary dump for Sengun (16th pick) who looks to be a good young player.

Those that criticize these moves always show a poor understanding of the NBA land scape an offer unrealistic alternatives. An expiring contract and a young big on a rookie deal is good value.

It seems you dont understand the value difference between an expiring contract and a player who has guaranteed money on the books in Favours. We had the cap space for Holmes as it is and still didnt sign him, what makes you think we would have if we made the deal with Uta?

How could we have executed the Kemba trade?

Bud it’s not that complicated. These are moves that actually happened, I don’t know how you can say they were unrealistic. A $19 million salary dump and a decent big on a rookie contract is not good value. You are missing the entire point about opportunity cost.

I clearly stated the potential deals that actually happened which we missed out on because we took on dead money for a marginal asset.

The first round pick is for taking on 2 years of Favors. That’s the entire point of the trade from Utah’s perspective.

We didn’t have cap space to sign Holmes because we still had Lowry’s cap hold so we couldn’t sign him.

Favours is a cap dump who could play backup C for us. Holmes would be the starting C for us. Holmes on his current contract with his current production has more value that Achiuwa. In this scenario we have now have a future 1st + Holmes who is worth more than Achiuwa. This opportunity was missed because we made the Lowry sign-and-trade.

We had $20+ mill in cap space if we renounced Lowry + Bouchers contract to match Kemba’s contract. He agreed to a $20 million buyout to go to the Knicks as well so no luxury tax concerns.

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

[AkelaLoneWolf]

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

If I'm Masai I'm asking for a FRP for taking on Powell's extra year. Better bet would be a deal with dragic centered around Prince with the T-wolves. Maybe make it a three way with Powell going to the Twolves and Dragic to Dallas.

[Raptors_128]

Those that criticize these moves always show a poor understanding of the NBA land scape an offer unrealistic alternatives. An expiring contract and a young big on a rookie deal is good value.

It seems you dont understand the value difference between an expiring contract and a player who has guaranteed money on the books in Favours. We had the cap space for Holmes as it is and still didnt sign him, what makes you think we would have if we made the deal with Uta?

How could we have executed the Kemba trade?

Bud it’s not that complicated. These are moves that actually happened, I don’t know how you can say they were unrealistic. A $19 million salary dump and a decent big on a rookie contract is not good value. You are missing the entire point about opportunity cost.

I clearly stated the potential deals that actually happened which we missed out on because we took on dead money for a marginal asset.

The first round pick is for taking on 2 years of Favors. That’s the entire point of the trade from Utah’s perspective.

We didn’t have cap space to sign Holmes because we still had Lowry’s cap hold so we couldn’t sign him.

Favours is a cap dump who could play backup C for us. Holmes would be the starting C for us. Holmes on his current contract with his current production has more value that Achiuwa. In this scenario we have now have a future 1st + Holmes who is worth more than Achiuwa. This opportunity was missed because we made the Lowry sign-and-trade.

We had $20+ mill in cap space if we renounced Lowry + Bouchers contract to match Kemba’s contract. He agreed to a $20 million buyout to go to the Knicks as well so no luxury tax concerns.

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

It doesn’t matter if he’s out playing his contract this year because the cost to get him was Dragic’s dead money plus his salary. To have Achiuwa on the roster this year you are paying $19 million + $2 million. He is no where near worth $21 million this year.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that next year doesn’t matter since we are already over the cap. It doesn’t matter if Achiuwa is making $2 mill or $8 mill. We can’t do nothing with the savings.

He is an undersized centre averaging 8/8 with TS of 42%. That is terrible especially for a centre. His market value is not that high imo.

[DangerZone13]

Bud it’s not that complicated. These are moves that actually happened, I don’t know how you can say they were unrealistic. A $19 million salary dump and a decent big on a rookie contract is not good value. You are missing the entire point about opportunity cost.

I clearly stated the potential deals that actually happened which we missed out on because we took on dead money for a marginal asset.

The first round pick is for taking on 2 years of Favors. That’s the entire point of the trade from Utah’s perspective.

We didn’t have cap space to sign Holmes because we still had Lowry’s cap hold so we couldn’t sign him.

Favours is a cap dump who could play backup C for us. Holmes would be the starting C for us. Holmes on his current contract with his current production has more value that Achiuwa. In this scenario we have now have a future 1st + Holmes who is worth more than Achiuwa. This opportunity was missed because we made the Lowry sign-and-trade.

We had $20+ mill in cap space if we renounced Lowry + Bouchers contract to match Kemba’s contract. He agreed to a $20 million buyout to go to the Knicks as well so no luxury tax concerns.

You're not getting it. Precious is already outplaying his contract by between 6 to 8 million per year. And we get him for two more seasons at that discounted rate. He's already worth an approx 8 million cap hit (probably more tbh) and we're getting him for an actual 2 million cap hit.

Next year he should improve. The year after that even more.....but his salary is set in stone. So he will be a player who is making FAR below market value for 3 seasons.

The 19 million cap hit for dragic is ONLY this year.

It doesn’t matter if he’s out playing his contract this year because the cost to get him was Dragic’s dead money plus his salary. To have Achiuwa on the roster this year you are paying $19 million + $2 million. He is no where near worth $21 million this year.

The thing you guys are not understanding is that next year doesn’t matter since we are already over the cap. It doesn’t matter if Achiuwa is making $2 mill or $8 mill. We can’t do nothing with the savings.

He is an undersized centre averaging 8/8 with TS of 42%. That is terrible especially for a centre. His market value is not that high imo.

Folks - what's done is done. Dragic is here, Achiuwa is here. Can we stop derailing this with the same tired argument from the summer. The horse was dead ages ago, just bury the damn thing. It contributes nothing to the conversation of what the Raptors can do NOW because there's waves, which is what the thread is about.

The question is do they roll Dragic into a salary expiring the following year for trade fodder given the salary outlook going forward.

[DelAbbot]

Deja vu. This proposal was discussed ad nauseam before this season started. Difference being Dragic still had perceived value back then so adding Flynn wasn't needed

I still like the Moses Brown/Josh Green/Dwight Powell/WCS for Dragic/Flynn trade from Dallas. I happen to think that the Raps could potentially get Simmons, but I think it hinges on who the other team(s) in the trade are.

If I'm Masai I'm asking for a FRP for taking on Powell's extra year. Better bet would be a deal with dragic centered around Prince with the T-wolves. Maybe make it a three way with Powell going to the Twolves and Dragic to Dallas.

[pingpongrac]

Trent is shooting 41.5% very close to career average. That doesn't cut it for a SG. At some point, people have to accept reality instead of touting his age all the time. Its his 4th season, and you need to show efficiency improvement. There's been none so far and his mediocre shot creation combined with steaky shooting makes him a trade candidate.

Gary is shooting almost 39% from 3 on 5.6 attempts which is better than Bradley Beal's career average.

And that's cool innat, but Beal also brings more to the game. He's a better scorer than Trent and a better playmaker. Not to mention he's more efficient.

So yeah. I said this before but I think Trent is much better suited as a 6th man on a contending team.

Beal age 19-22: 17.6 PTS (44% on 2FGA and 40% on 3 FGA with 3.1 FTA and a 52 TS%), 4.1 REB, 3.3 AST per36

GTJ age 19-22: 16.5 PTS (45% on 2FGA and 39% on 3FGA with 1.8 FTA and a 54 TS%), 3.0 REB, 1.7 AST per36

Keep in mind Beal had a 23.6 USG% over that span while GTJ has a career 19.0 USG% so far. That 5% difference almost entirely accounts for the extra 1.1 points and 1.6 AST. It should be obvious that Beal would be the better scorer and playmaker now when he is in his 10th season and has played 500 more NBA games than GTJ, but their early career numbers are extremely comparable. Obviously there is no guarantee that GTJ will turn into a Beal type of player that almost averaged 25/5/5 over the last 5+ years, but it is ridiculous to claim that there is "no comparison inside the three-point line" when the numbers are so easily accessible. GTJ is more efficient inside the line than Beal was in his first 4 seasons lol.

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