ESPN 2022 player rankings(Pascal #30 FVV #38 Scottie #39)

[execoftheyear]

wow lol...Pascal being all NBA should automatically make him at least top 15

Not really.

Gobert has been all nba 4 times now, I don't think anyone would say he's been an "atleast top 15 player" caliber of a player.

Guys that play one side of the floor I can understand but Siakam plays both sides at a high level. Dude is constantly being underrated.

[Mr Swagtastic]

I think Pascal could be ranked a bit higher in that 25 range. Agree with OG, Barnes and Freddys rankings.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander should be ranked higher

[HumbleRen]

wow lol...Pascal being all NBA should automatically make him at least top 15

Not really.

Gobert has been all nba 4 times now, I don't think anyone would say he's been an "atleast top 15 player" caliber of a player.

I don't know about that. If you took a poll around the league in the last few years, Gobert likely would have been in the top 15 range more often than not seeing as he placed 11th in MVP voting in 18/19 and 10th in 20/21 while he made 3 straight All-NBA teams. In the same span, there has also been a "top 25 players" poll on the GB and Gobert has ranked 14th (18/19 offseason), 13th, 21st, 16th and 13th (this offseason) which averages out to 15.4. It seems pretty universal that Gobert has been expected to be a top 15ish player and rated as such for the past 5 seasons.

Again, if a player makes 0 or 1 All-NBA teams over a 3-5 year-stretch, it's pretty safe to assume they're not a top 15 player unless they've only been in the league a few seasons and they've taken a big leap (like Tatum after the bubble playoffs or Ja this past season). Randle (20/21) and Kemba (18/19) are a few recent examples who had great one-off years but haven't played like top 15 players in any other seasons. On the flip side, once a player makes 2-3 All-NBA teams over a 3-5 year-stretch, it's pretty safe to assume they are a top 15ish player. There are very few anomalies or players that stick out as anything but a bonafide star (DeAndre Jordan/Gobert who were both top defensive players + league leaders in rebounding, DeRozan who was scoring 25 PPG for very good regular season teams and Siakam who put up 22.8/8.0/4.5 in his two All-NBA seasons while being a two-way player).

The key part was that you said "top 15ish player", I have no qualms about that but when people say "at the very least he's a top 15 player" is where they lose me.

I just don't believe that 15th is the floor for a player like Siakam and Gobert.

[HumbleRen]

wow lol...Pascal being all NBA should automatically make him at least top 15

Not really.

Gobert has been all nba 4 times now, I don't think anyone would say he's been an "atleast top 15 player" caliber of a player.

Guys that play one side of the floor I can understand but Siakam plays both sides at a high level. Dude is constantly being underrated.

Siakam being 30th is defintely egregious, I just disagree with the notion of a player being all nba makes them automatically top 15 in the league.

[execoftheyear]

Not really.

Gobert has been all nba 4 times now, I don't think anyone would say he's been an "atleast top 15 player" caliber of a player.

Guys that play one side of the floor I can understand but Siakam plays both sides at a high level. Dude is constantly being underrated.

Siakam being 30th is defintely egregious, I just disagree with the notion of a player being all nba makes them automatically top 15 in the league.

yea I kind of see where you're coming from considering all-nba takes positions into consideration while these rankings are positionless. If all-nba took the top 15 regardless of position then yea, Siakam would automatically be top 15.

[libertyYYZ]

Only All-NBA guys who didn't make top-25 were a Raptor and a former Raptor becuz it's ESPN. Were you expecting recognition? The story never changes.

The All-NBA is voted on by a worldwide panel of 100 broadcasters
https://www.hoopsaddict.com/who-votes-for-the-nba-awards/#Who_Votes_for_All_the_NBA_Teams

2021-22
FIRST TEAM:
F: Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
F: Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics
C: Nikola Jokic, Denver Nuggets
G: Devin Booker, Phoenix Suns
G: Luka Doncic, Dallas Mavericks

SECOND TEAM
F: DeMar DeRozan, Chicago Bulls
F: Kevin Durant, Brooklyn Nets
C: Joel Embiid, Philadelphia 76ers
G: Ja Morant, Memphis Grizzlies
G: Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors

THIRD TEAM
F: Pascal Siakam, Toronto Raptors
F: LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
C: Karl-Anthony Towns, Minnesota Timberwolves
G: Chris Paul, Phoenix Suns
G: Trae Young, Atlanta Hawks

[Ell Curry]

Is Booker over Curry a bit?

Freddy is a weird one because he's probably a top 15 regular season player (assuming he's fully healthy now) but like a top 45 playoff game, because tiny guards who set the tone defensively but can't create for themselves are way more valuable in the regular season. Same reason Mike Conley graded out on EPM as the 23rd best player in the league and Pat Beverly at 68th, but nobody would have them ranked nearly that high for the playoffs. Also same reason Lowry was a consistent top 10 player during the Demar years but certainly not a top 10 guy in the playoffs. On the other hand, OG is probably a better playoff guy than regular season guy, even being dreadful in ISO scoring.

[gp2015]

Is Booker over Curry a bit?

Freddy is a weird one because he's probably a top 15 regular season player (assuming he's fully healthy now) but like a top 45 playoff game, because tiny guards who set the tone defensively but can't create for themselves are way more valuable in the regular season. Same reason Mike Conley graded out on EPM as the 23rd best player in the league and Pat Beverly at 68th, but nobody would have them ranked nearly that high for the playoffs. Also same reason Lowry was a consistent top 10 player during the Demar years but certainly not a top 10 guy in the playoffs. On the other hand, OG is probably a better playoff guy than regular season guy, even being dreadful in ISO scoring.

Nah, Freddy ain't a top 15 regular season player even when healthy.

[lobosloboslobos]

This ranking is about who is the best player this year, correct?

which of these guys do you think will be better than Pascal Siakam as a two-way player this year?

#25 Ant Edwards
#24 Donovan Mitchell
#23 Bam Adebayo
#22 Jaylen Brown
Chris Paul
Anthony Davis
Bradley Beal
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Paul George
Lillard
KAT
Kawhi
#11 Harden

5 or 6 of them? Maybe less? I'd bet on only a few of them being definitely better this year, and the reality is that Pascal in his prime could end up having a better season than any of them. Ridiculous disrespect but i only care that Pascal wakes them up.

[Rapsin6]

Folks getting upset here but why? Doesn’t it always make the season more fun when we outperform their stupid projections? For me, it’s a big reason why the ‘19-20 season was so enjoyable. Coming here to see a clown head pasted over Smitch with his prediction of us missing the playoffs gave me a lot of smiles.

Anyhoo, I guess with our best player only being 30, we have no chance of making playoffs. Also, do they have Minny as favourites?

[HumbleRen]

This ranking is about who is the best player this year, correct?

which of these guys do you think will be better than Pascal Siakam as a two-way player this year?

#25 Ant Edwards
#24 Donovan Mitchell
#23 Bam Adebayo
#22 Jaylen Brown
Chris Paul
Anthony Davis
Bradley Beal
Rudy Gobert
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Paul George
Lillard
KAT
Kawhi
#11 Harden

5 or 6 of them? Maybe less? I'd bet on only a few of them being definitely better this year, and the reality is that Pascal in his prime could end up having a better season than any of them. Ridiculous disrespect but i only care that Pascal wakes them up.

PG, Jimmy, and Kawhi.

[Gold Dragon]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-top-100-player-rankings-giannis-stephen-curry-kevin-durant-vie-for-no-1-lebron-james-slips/

CBS rankings
#24 Pascal
#38 FVV
#48 Scottie
#59 OG
#75 GTJ

Other notables
#19 Jaylen Brown
#27 Ingram
#37 Garland
#40 Mobley
#42 Simmons
#45 Smart
#47 Cade

A more reasonable list than ESPN.

[Syd-TK3]

Bam is not better than Siakam lol

[wegotthabeet]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-top-100-player-rankings-giannis-stephen-curry-kevin-durant-vie-for-no-1-lebron-james-slips/

CBS rankings
#24 Pascal
#38 FVV
#48 Scottie
#59 OG
#75 GTJ

Other notables
#19 Jaylen Brown
#27 Ingram
#37 Garland
#40 Mobley
#42 Simmons
#45 Smart
#47 Cade

A more reasonable list than ESPN.

the CBS rankings are much better. 5 top 75 players, one of which is top 25 feels right.

Scottie is going to move up to the top 25 next year anyway then we'll have two top 25 guys. Precious will join the top 100 next year too.

[vini_vidi_vici]

It’s okay, I guess Al Horford, Desmond Bane, Porzingis, Mike Conley, etc, are all top 20 players in this league too according to ESPN real plus minus. Totally sane opinions to have I guess. /s

Or are those guys outliers too? If they are, a stat where 5 guys are outliers in the top 20 is a joke stat. Actually watch games people.

Again, you're literally looking at one stat. How many of those players are near the top of the league in virtually every impact stat? And how many of those players are posting elite impact stats while being a top option for a ~50-win team? Porzingis (great numbers for a terrible Washington team and decent numbers for an at the time pretty good Dallas team) and Bane (very good numbers as a 2nd/3rd option for a great Memphis team) are the only ones that come remotely close to FVV's impact + traditional stats.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

I'd also add that Al Horford actually made a massive, underappreciated impact on how that Celtic team functions. Some times these older, non-flashy impact players go unnoticed by fans that might be too focused on highlight reels and iso scoring.

I liken Horford to a non washed up version of the Raptors Marc Gasol....a guy that actually makes more basketball impact related to winning than several of the players that show up on top 50 lists.

Horford was one of the best defensive bigs in the L, if not the best (I know, its surprising). Heres an example.

Spoiler:

Thats not even getting into why his +/- is the way it is, which is also a fairly easy explanation. If the argument is RAPM/LEBRON/etc.. is bad, fine we can talk about why, but no one does. Its just _____ (stat) is bad, because it has _____ (player) high up. Its low level engagement.

The problem people have is they think pointing to _______ (some outlier) is indicative of something. Im not the guy who is ever going to come in here and say PER is **** because ____ is high on the list, im going to tell you its because its a boxscore stat doesnt incorporate defense properly (and I could add other caveats). To me it just shows their ignorance, and after typing that out for 6 yrs, in multiple threads, its boring.

VVV could you add Capela to your table? Show 720 that Capelas the outlier because he only ranks in the 90+% in one stat and not across multiple catch all advanced stats?

Cheers

Since youre asking in what I presume is good faith.

Spoiler:

This doesnt prove anything though.

It’s okay, I guess Al Horford, Desmond Bane, Porzingis, Mike Conley, etc, are all top 20 players in this league too according to ESPN real plus minus. Totally sane opinions to have I guess. /s

Or are those guys outliers too? If they are, a stat where 5 guys are outliers in the top 20 is a joke stat. Actually watch games people.

I'm not arguing against you. I think the stats geeks have a compelling case if the macro catch-all stats are in general agreement on players. If a particular stat has Al Horford as a top 20 player, and he's a top ~100 in all others, well you have an outlier there.

If on the other hand, you have multiple late 100 guys in the top 20 across all these catch all stats...well then a heavy dose of scepticism is justified. If that's the case, who's to say FVV isn't the outlier?

Stat geeks rarely use all encompassing stats because we are aware of the inherent flaws.

The problem is that alot of +/- stats are going to look similar (for obvious reasons), and alot of boxscore stats are going to look similar (for obvious reasons). Im probably the biggest advocate of using stats beyond these, but thats not to say they dont have their uses.

I think youre missing my point about outliers. Guys can be good and have a great season/s. Guys can be great and have good season/s. These are the outliers. Now why that season they were good/great/whatever, we can break it down and discuss, but no one wants to do that. The irony is, most people dont even understand what they are talking about.

"a stat where 5 guys are outliers in the top 20 is a joke stat"

What does this even mean?? its a number. Then to pile on the rhetoric because hes saying nothing, its about people not watching the games, a common trope. That **** is boring.

[OakleyDokely]

Read on Twitter

[Madhouse]

It's just a ranking but

Note: ESPN's NBArank panel, composed of over 200 reporters, editors, producers and analysts, were asked to rank players based on their predicted contributions -- quality and quantity -- for the 2022-23 season only.

Hey, maybe everyone is wrong and probably is because nobody can predict the future but at least this is a massive panel of people giving their thoughts and not just 1-2 random people.

I mean last year Fred was barely top 60 and Siakam top 40.

They will be wrong about those 2 again.

[redeye514]

Pascal really came out and said that he’s going to drop the 0 from the 30 this year.

[Live Free]

I get this is the raptors board but holy smokes the Homers are lined up in single file here.

Most of you agree Pascal isn't a #1 option yet you're here arguing he's top 15 borderline moronic

Buddy hasn't even gotten outta the first round since taking the franchise over. Let's focus on that first.

[OakleyDokely]

I get this is the raptors board but holy smokes the Homers are lined up in single file here.

Most of you agree Pascal isn't a #1 option yet you're here arguing he's top 15 borderline moronic

Buddy hasn't even gotten outta the first round since taking the franchise over. Let's focus on that first.

The Raptors went to the 2nd round after the championship year.