OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[Fairview4Life]

Not sure why anyone is actually arguing about something so personally subjective like which sport is more entertaining to watch. Some people want to watch 4 days of cricket and not basketball or hockey. Humanity contains multitudes.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I mean saying he has "one drafted player" is kind of stretching the truth here.

Robertson got hurt, so he is technically on the team.

I don't think Robertson established himself as a regular at this point. Technically isn't really all that important.

Durzi got traded for Muzzin who is hurt. Sandin got traded due to the fact he was not happy in the 7th D slot (and he got traded for a future 1st and Gustaffson, who is hurt). Pretty much every player drafted in the 1st or 2nd round (where 90% of NHLers come from) has been traded away or is injured, except Knies.

Dubas did not have a first rounder in 2019 or 2021-2022 (2019 = Muzzin, 2020 = Amirov who has a brain tumor now, 2021 = Foligno which obviously did not pan out, and 2022 = traded back 14 spots to). Players in the NHL also take longer to get NHL ready. Outside first round picks, guys in the 2nd-7th rounds take year to make it to the show. In the 2022 draft, only 5 players have played a game. In 2021, only 18 players have (and only 5 after the 1st round). 2020 only has about 50 (did not feel like counting), and 2019 only has 75.

I'm aware of this. Dubas was the one moving these picks in an attempt to smooth over cap issues he was partially to blame for, paper over trades he bungled, etc, and that, as I pointed out, he's left the cupboard nearly empty over the next 3 seasons. If he gets re-upped, it should be because the calls he made pay off with playoff results. If he doesn't, he's left the next guy with a tough situation. It's an old supporting cast with a young core that's due for massive pay raises.

[GQStylin]

I'm aware of this. Dubas was the one moving these picks in an attempt to smooth over cap issues he was partially to blame for, paper over trades he bungled, etc, and that, as I pointed out, he's left the cupboard nearly empty over the next 3 seasons. If he gets re-upped, it should be because the calls he made pay off with playoff results. If he doesn't, he's left the next guy with a tough situation. It's an old supporting cast with a young core that's due for massive pay raises.

Two of the more significant bad contracts signed in Marleau and Zaitzev were done by Lamoriello and it was up to Dubas to move those guys and under the circumstances he did alright. For players that Dubas did sign like Ritchie and Mrazek he was trying to improve the team and as we all know not all moves work out and at least he's willing to admit his mistakes and then fix them and he did alright in moving those contracts out as well.

Looking at Dubas' trade history I don't see too many bad trades and as for contracts, he hasn't handed out too many to date and for the ones he has, he's gotten rid of them pretty well so that in recent years the Leafs haven't had many bad contracts on their roster taking up cap space for very long.

As for the future while it does suck to trade away picks, looking at the current Leafs roster there really isn't that many open roster spots for young players to take up right now. Even guys like Liljegren, Timmins and Holmberg who are ready to be on the Leafs as regulars can't get in because there are other guys taking up spots right now. And if you look at the Marlies and the Leafs prospects there, a few aren't very far from being ready to play in the NHL too. The point is the Leafs aren't running short of promising young players that could come up and help the team in the future anytime soon and we're only talking about the ones that the Leafs have already signed and are playing with the Marlies and not a few other prospects that the Leafs drafted who we can't even sign even if we wanted to because we don't have the contract spots to do so until we move some players out.

[nestea]

Hoping Tampa wins it in 7. Leafs and Argos I dislike. All other Toronto teams I cheer for.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The Zaitsev trade was a win and didn't cost them any picks or prospects. Brown was a bottom 6 player at that point. Shouldn't have re-signed Ceci. Everyone knew he was bad. That Brown ended up being a lot better than he was with the Leafs is okay, because the top 6 of the Leafs was never a problem.

Lou handed him everything he needed to win at least one round. He's won 4 himself with way less to work with on the Islanders.

[MoneyBall]

First round is typically better but the NBA destroys the NHL in overall playoffs. The NHL become a snooze fest after peaking in the first round while the NBA gets better and better. Though the finals have been a bit boring in recent years with one team being way better.

NBA first round playoffs are a joke most of the time and its just a warmup round for the best teams to beat up on the weaker teams. I mean when was the last time you had a real upset in the 1st round where a top NBA team lost to a 7th or 8th seed in the playoffs in a 7 game series? Rarely if ever.

As for later rounds, the NBA does get better because now they're usually facing opponents of closer to the same caliber, but still NBA playoffs don't and won't ever hold a candle to the NHL playoffs for the simple reasons of 1) upsets don't happen very often, 2) NBA refs can be biased as hell and they have too much influence on a game and 3) sudden death overtime NHL playoff hockey can NEVER be matched by anything else in sports.

One can argue that one bad ref in the NHL has more influence than one bad ref in the NBA.

[Merit]

The playoff setup in the NHL is trash. Leafs can't get too far ahead of themselves. First they have to close out the series. Next, they have a historic Boston team to play against.

I wish they would go back to the 1 to 8 seeding where the best team faces the supposed worse team in the first round. I like when different teams face each other every year instead of knowing who you're going to play several months before the playoffs start.

Also lets see if the Leafs can finally put it away within these next 3 games against Tampa before we talk about anything else. Leafs fans have been burned so much that we need to SEE IT HAPPEN before we believe it. I have confidence that they can do it, but lets see them actually do it.

I’m hard procrastinating in anticipation of this evening.

[will]

LETS GO LEAFS!

[GQStylin]

One can argue that one bad ref in the NHL has more influence than one bad ref in the NBA.

Not even close. The best an NHL ref can do to influence a hockey game is to try and give one team more powerplay opportunities, but that team still has to convert on those chances and also there's always the chance that they give up a shorthanded goal while on that powerplay.

In the NBA a foul means freethrows and free points and unless you miss them as often as the Raps did against the Bulls, those FT points can add up pretty quickly. Much like an NBA superstar can have a massive influence on a game, an NBA ref can have a big influence on a game if they decide to. Heck just look at how often the Raps have been screwed by the refs for so many years.

[GQStylin]

I’m hard procrastinating in anticipation of this evening.

There's some good games going on tonight, however the Leafs are playing Thursday night.

[MoneyBall]

One can argue that one bad ref in the NHL has more influence than one bad ref in the NBA.

Not even close. The best an NHL ref can do to influence a hockey game is to try and give one team more powerplay opportunities, but that team still has to convert on those chances and also there's always the chance that they give up a shorthanded goal while on that powerplay.

In the NBA a foul means freethrows and free points and unless you miss them as often as the Raps did against the Bulls, those FT points can add up pretty quickly. Much like an NBA superstar can have a massive influence on a game, an NBA ref can have a big influence on a game if they decide to. Heck just look at how often the Raps have been screwed by the refs for so many years.

All an NHL ref can do is give a team more powerplays? You say that like it's barely an advantage. A team can win with that one powerplay goal alone. An NBA team can't win with only their made free throws.

[GQStylin]

Lou handed him everything he needed to win at least one round. He's won 4 himself with way less to work with on the Islanders.

When Lou left the Leafs he gave Dubas an incomplete team and very little in the way of good prospects outside of Matthews, Liljegren and Grundstrom. Every other player drafted under Lou's reign either never played in the NHL or has never turned into anything significant even if they did play some games in the NHL. Also most of the trades he made were mediocre to crap and didn't signficantly improve the roster much at all especially any of his deadline moves.

It was under Dubas and his team that helped to build a decent prospect pool and it was Dubas who made trades that at least attempted to address all the real or perceived weaknesses of the team.

[GQStylin]

All an NHL ref can do is give a team more powerplays? You say that like it's barely an advantage. A team can win with that one powerplay goal alone. An NBA team can't win with only their made free throws.

Again you still have to convert on those powerplay chances for it to help you and also there's always a chance you give up a shorthanded goal. The Oilers are far and away the best powerplay team in the league this year and they STILL only convert 3 out of 10 PP chances they get. Think about that. The best powerplay team only is able to convert about 32% of the PP chances they receive.

Free throws are free points as long as you make them and also we didn't mention that NBA refs can influence things by giving fouls to good players and either forcing them to sit for longer periods of time during a game or fouling them out althogether. Get a Durant or Lebron into foul trouble early and then they'll be forced to sit instead of being on the court and doing damage to the opposing team. NHL refs can do anything like that in hockey.

[MoneyBall]

All an NHL ref can do is give a team more powerplays? You say that like it's barely an advantage. A team can win with that one powerplay goal alone. An NBA team can't win with only their made free throws.

Again you still have to convert on those powerplay chances for it to help you and also there's always a chance you give up a shorthanded goal. The Oilers are far and away the best powerplay team in the league this year and they STILL only convert 3 out of 10 PP chances they get. Think about that. The best powerplay team only is able to convert about 32% of the PP chances they receive.

Free throws are free points as long as you make them and also we didn't mention that NBA refs can influence things by giving fouls to good players and either forcing them to sit for longer periods of time during a game or fouling them out althogether. Get a Durant or Lebron into foul trouble early and then they'll be forced to sit instead of being on the court and doing damage to the opposing team. NHL refs can do anything like that in hockey.

You still have to covert free throws, too. A 1 in 3 chance to score a goal on the PP is very high, especially considering that that one goal can be sufficient to win the game. Refs can easily up those odds by giving extended penalty minutes or even cause a 5 on 3.

If you want to argue it's worse in the NBA, fine. But to say it's not even close I think is stretching it.

[Merit]

I’m hard procrastinating in anticipation of this evening.

There's some good games going on tonight, however the Leafs are playing Thursday night.

Touché. I meant tomorrow evening. That’s how much I can’t wait for the game!

[AbC?]

NHL refs are terrible too, make no mistake about it. "Game management" is definitely a thing and it's awful for the integrity of the sport. NHL refs don't get as much scrutiny as refs in other leagues because they're so far behind in viewership compared to NBA/NFL/MLB

Wes McCauley refereed game 1 of the Leafs-Lightning series and the Leafs coach Sheldon Keefe testified against his brother in law and close friend. Blatant conflict of interest. It's just a bush league in general.


- there is no way penalties drawn and penalties against should be so closely related

[GQStylin]

You still have to covert free throws, too. A 1 in 3 chance to score a goal on the PP is very high, especially considering that that one goal can be sufficient to win the game. Refs can easily up those odds by giving extended penalty minutes or even cause a 5 on 3.

If you want to argue it's worse in the NBA, fine. But to say it's not even close I think is stretching it.

Converting free throws is far easier than converting on the powerplay. Even some of the worst FT shootings in the NBA can hit like 50% or so and the best are like 8 or 9 out of 10. Also only the Oilers are achieving that 32% PP scoring rate while half the other NHL teams are between 20-25% and the other bottom half between 15-19% somewhere.

And again there's no way for an NHL ref to get a superstar hockey player off the ice if they're not doing anything that's penalty worthy while in the NBA you can often find ticky tacky crappy stuff to call a foul on any player if you really wanted to. The Raptors are a prime example of this where its been happening to them for so many years now. Also an NBA ref can vastly influence a game by putting a superstar NBA player into early foul trouble and forcing them to sit and considering how much more an impact a good NBA player has on a game than a good NHL player, that's a huge deal.

There's nothing an NHL ref could do that would be the equivalent of an NBA ref giving a star player like 3 fouls in the 1st quarter and then forcing that player to sit for much of the 2nd quarter in order to not get another foul before even half the game has been played.

[WuTang_OG]

Gotta win tonight

[xAIRNESSx]

That was a nice goal by the Leafs but smh, they give it right back.

[Jcity08]

Bruh