Official RJ Barrett Thread Part 2

[tsherkin]

I look at the numbers as relative to their peer, not in a vacuum. Scottie is at league average numbers for his position, and RJ is 7% below it. That's it. I am critical of things Scottie sucks at same as I am RJ.

I also don't know where this mythical 73% is coming from, he's shooting 71% on the season, he averages 71% for his career, so 71% seems like a pretty reasonable number to use.

I'm not sure either. He was at 69.9% FT when I posted and 71% before the start of this season. I guess if you remove his first season and don't include this year, he's at 72.8%, so probably that.

I'm not saying RJ is the worst FT in history, simply that he is below average, and Scottie is average, that's why I am criticizing one over the other, it's not rocket science. Yogurt just gets triggered with every post of mine so it's like a Pavlovian response to him at this point to be contrarian.

I don't really want to get in the middle of that. At this point, I think it's clear that RJ has some issues with his FT shooting and Scottie is closer to the acceptable standard, so there's that. Both should keep trying to improve, as they both need to improve as shooters in general.

[Scase]

I look at the numbers as relative to their peer, not in a vacuum. Scottie is at league average numbers for his position, and RJ is 7% below it. That's it. I am critical of things Scottie sucks at same as I am RJ.

I also don't know where this mythical 73% is coming from, he's shooting 71% on the season, he averages 71% for his career, so 71% seems like a pretty reasonable number to use.

I'm not sure either. He was at 69.9% FT when I posted and 71% before the start of this season. I guess if you remove his first season and don't include this year, he's at 72.8%, so probably that.

I'm not saying RJ is the worst FT in history, simply that he is below average, and Scottie is average, that's why I am criticizing one over the other, it's not rocket science. Yogurt just gets triggered with every post of mine so it's like a Pavlovian response to him at this point to be contrarian.

I don't really want to get in the middle of that. At this point, I think it's clear that RJ has some issues with his FT shooting and Scottie is closer to the acceptable standard, so there's that. Both should keep trying to improve, as they both need to improve as shooters in general.

That's all I've been saying lol

[tsherkin]

That's all I've been saying lol

Heh.

[johanliebert]

Glad to see the knick fans and pseduo execs took a break. Remember they need RJ to be a bust here.

[tsherkin]

Glad to see the knick fans and pseduo execs took a break. Remember they need RJ to be a bust here.

RJ's gonna be what RJ's gonna be, right? We're hoping for him to evolve his game some, but developing shooting ability isn't easy. We've seen him have more success when we have him on-ball less and attacking off-ball more. We know he's far better in the corners (especially on the right) than above the break. We've seen some development in his passing. We know he isn't a stunner on D. We know he seems to respond much better when Scottie's running the show than when he's trying to create too much, and that extending his usage overmuch puts too much pressure on him. We know all these things, and are just trying to manage with injuries and roster limitations to see if we can get him into his optimal role, and what that looks like

He did also just have 4 really efficient games, then ran headlong into a high-end defense with his whole team shooting like garbage.

Food for thought.

[YogurtProducer]

TLDR - Scottie at 76% is fine because it’s Scottie, but 73% for RJ isn’t because it’s RJ.

76% isn't awesome but it's acceptable.

73% isn't awful, but he actually isn't that and hasn't been consistently above 71.5% at the line. If he gets to 73% this season, that'd be decent. Not great, but not the worst. Fairly reflective of his overall proficiency as a shooter... and the same for Barnes, of course.

Shooting of all types is a concern for both, I think that should be a universally accepted point.

You throw out RJs good 74% year,

And tbf, Barrett has shot 74%+ twice, in both 2021 and 2023. And then he's also under 70% again so far this season.

And RJ doesn't have a lot of success above the break or at all from mid-range. I think I line up with Yogurt on this one: a marginal difference in FT% isn't a big deal.

I look at the numbers as relative to their peer, not in a vacuum. Scottie is at league average numbers for his position, and RJ is 7% below it. That's it. I am critical of things Scottie sucks at same as I am RJ.

I also don't know where this mythical 73% is coming from, he's shooting 71% on the season, he averages 71% for his career, so 71% seems like a pretty reasonable number to use.

I'm not saying RJ is the worst FT in history, simply that he is below average, and Scottie is average, that's why I am criticizing one over the other, it's not rocket science. .

In a league where Scottie could be called anything from a PG to a PF IDK how you even decide what position Scottie is. Going to guess that despite calling him a PG for ages, he magically is a PF now in this comparison?

Yogurt just gets triggered with every post of mine so it's like a Pavlovian response to him at this point to be contrarian

Well, when you post as much as you do with as much obvious bias as you do, its hard to ignore.

[tsherkin]

In a league where Scottie could be called anything from a PG to a PF IDK how you even decide what position Scottie is. Going to guess that despite calling him a PG for ages, he magically is a PF now in this comparison?

It's hard to tell, but specific positional labels have been challenging for a long time, no doubt. Scottie's clearly our primary initiator, but he's huge compared to classical points. But we call Doncic a PG, called Magic a PG, etc.

[Scase]

In a league where Scottie could be called anything from a PG to a PF IDK how you even decide what position Scottie is. Going to guess that despite calling him a PG for ages, he magically is a PF now in this comparison?

It's hard to tell, but specific positional labels have been challenging for a long time, no doubt. Scottie's clearly our primary initiator, but he's huge compared to classical points. But we call Doncic a PG, called Magic a PG, etc.

I don't think I've ever outright called him a PG, maybe that we should run him at PG, or he wants to be one. But he is not and I don't think will ever be a PG, he doesn't have the on ball skills you typically need. I have called him a point forward pretty consistently, and refer to him as a poor mans Jokic, who is also last time I checked, not a PG.

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

[tsherkin]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

[ash_k]

Glad to see the knick fans and pseduo execs took a break. Remember they need RJ to be a bust here.

One can only image how they felt when they saw


"no but he still cannot shoot though. "

[Drakeem]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

Size/defensive strengths/shooting ability/dribbling probably.

Scottie is perfect size for a forward, too undersized for a 5 man. He's not quick enough on his feet to d-up 1 or 2 guards consistently, and not big enough to guard the top tier centers in the league either. Focusing in on the forward spots, the 3 spot typically plays more similarly to a 2 guard as they're on the wing. While Scottie can float around the 3pt line, his jumper and handle are a little too shaky for that to be his strongest position. Ideally Scottie gets to his spot in the elbow or closer, which makes him more of a 4 to me. Plus, at the 4, I think he'll be able to go past a lot of the slower footed 4s, and he's too strong to switch.

[tsherkin]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

Size/defensive strengths/shooting ability/dribbling probably.

Scottie is perfect size for a forward, too undersized for a 5 man. He's not quick enough on his feet to d-up 1 or 2 guards consistently, and not big enough to guard the top tier centers in the league either. Focusing in on the forward spots, the 3 spot typically plays more similarly to a 2 guard as they're on the wing. While Scottie can float around the 3pt line, his jumper and handle are a little too shaky for that to be his strongest position. Ideally Scottie gets to his spot in the elbow or closer, which makes him more of a 4 to me. Plus, at the 4, I think he'll be able to go past a lot of the slower footed 4s, and he's too strong to switch.

My point was that PG/SG/SF/PF/C labels are archaic and lack consistent definitions, so this whole conversation is a little... moot, I guess, you know?

[Scase]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

I dont think there is one definitive thing to say it, but typically size and skill set. No one is going to mistake Lowry for a centre you know?

Positions are much more fluid now, but the archetypes still are pretty prominent.

[tsherkin]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

I dont think there is one definitive thing to say it, but typically size and skill set. No one is going to mistake Lowry for a centre you know?

Positions are much more fluid now, but the archetypes still are pretty prominent.

Yeah but again, we've watched players push size-based labels for a long time now, back into the 60s. If Magic was labeled a PG, and Doncic is labeled a PG, there isn't actually a strong size-based argument NOT to do so with Scottie.

[Scase]

What defines a position?

I dont think there is one definitive thing to say it, but typically size and skill set. No one is going to mistake Lowry for a centre you know?

Positions are much more fluid now, but the archetypes still are pretty prominent.

Yeah but again, we've watched players push size-based labels for a long time now, back into the 60s. If Magic was labeled a PG, and Doncic is labeled a PG, there isn't actually a strong size-based argument NOT to do so with Scottie.

You're using 2 outliers in the last 40 years as examples, not exactly a great argument lol.

I'm not saying roles are rigidly defined, but again, you aren't using a 6'3 guy to play centre for a reason.

[ArthurVandelay]

Positions are definitely a lot muddier now a days, but Scottie is a forward either way, and based on his actual current skill set, I think PF is the most accurate position.

What defines a position?

My rule of thumb has always been who you guard

[tsherkin]

You're using 2 outliers in the last 40 years as examples, not exactly a great argument lol.

Sure it is. We have only so many examples of those guys, but here they are. You could theoretically call them point forwards, but my point is that there is precedent for calling them PGs as well, and inconsistency as to what goes into those archetypical labels.

It would be better to use new roles instead of hundred year old labels from when the roles and player sizes were more rigidly applied.

[Scase]

You're using 2 outliers in the last 40 years as examples, not exactly a great argument lol.

Sure it is. We have only so many examples of those guys, but here they are. You could theoretically call them point forwards, but my point is that there is precedent for calling them PGs as well, and inconsistency as to what goes into those archetypical labels.

It would be better to use new roles instead of hundred year old labels from when the roles and player sizes were more rigidly applied.

I don't disagree with the latter statement, but isn't that exactly what point forward would be? Cause calling him a PG makes no sense, but point forward certainly does.

Not to mention, the Magic example is also a poor one, he was a big who not only played the PG role, but played like a PG. Scottie doesn't play like that, he doesn't have the skill set outside passing to match a PG. He has no dribble drive game, he doesn't have particularly good handles, he's not very agile or fast. He's pretty much a PF who has a very good passing game.

[tsherkin]

I don't disagree with the latter statement, but isn't that exactly what point forward would be? Cause calling him a PG makes no sense, but point forward certainly does.

I don't see the difference, tbh.

Not to mention, the Magic example is also a poor one, he was a big who not only played the PG role, but played like a PG. Scottie doesn't play like that, he doesn't have the skill set outside passing to match a PG. He has no dribble drive game, he doesn't have particularly good handles, he's not very agile or fast. He's pretty much a PF who has a very good passing game.

Yes, all of his rebounding and postplay made him look a lot like a guard... Magic was much better, for sure, but Scottie handles it on the break, advances the ball about the court in slower settings, initiates PnR, etc. These are all the same basic functions.

[Scase]

I don't disagree with the latter statement, but isn't that exactly what point forward would be? Cause calling him a PG makes no sense, but point forward certainly does.

I don't see the difference, tbh.

Not to mention, the Magic example is also a poor one, he was a big who not only played the PG role, but played like a PG. Scottie doesn't play like that, he doesn't have the skill set outside passing to match a PG. He has no dribble drive game, he doesn't have particularly good handles, he's not very agile or fast. He's pretty much a PF who has a very good passing game.

Yes, all of his rebounding and postplay made him look a lot like a guard... Magic was much better, for sure, but Scottie handles it on the break, advances the ball about the court in slower settings, initiates PnR, etc. These are all the same basic functions.

Any player can initiate a PnR, I've seen precious take the ball up in slow settings, and so on. The lines are definitely more blurred than ever, but very few people would look at Scottie and confuse him for a PG. He's certainly cosplaying as one though, none of this is a criticism of him, but it just doesn't stick for me. He can't guard or break down an opposing PG, he can't handle like one, his offensive game does not resemble a PG.

You can argue that any player can be any position, but it's efficacy that matters, taking a bunch of 3's and not playing in the post doesn't make you a PG if you aren't very good at it. Taking a bunch 3's doesn't make you a 3 point specialist, making them does.

Jokic is a better playmaker than 99% of the NBAs PGs, he facilitates the offence pretty much every second he's on the court, yet no one would ever call him a PG.