Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[Scase]

A bunch of Raptors fans think he's turned the corner as a 1A scorer lol.

No one presenting a sane opinion thinks that.

So this is kinda correct and not, he struggles with efficiency on volume, but oddly enough this year his volume has increased but his efficiency is identical to last year. It's still bad at 54.6% TS% lol, but interesting to note that it didn't get worse with more volume.

Because his core skillset as a scorer is about middies, and he's quite good with those. So he maintains similar efficiency on similar shots. He's also setting a career-high in 3PA/g and 3P% at the same time, which is helping match things off

His efficiency is down pretty much across the board from all locations on the floor by a pretty significant factor compared to last year. Aside from a marginal uptick from 3 and a pretty big jump from short MR, he's down by like 4-5% in most other places. I wonder if they alter his shot diet to cut those out, he starts to look better.

That said, if Scottie jumped 2 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 pts while maintaining the exact same efficiency, most people here would be losing their marbles. I definitely don't see Cade being a 100 or more TS+ player, but I think he can be average efficiency as he ages.

[XTC]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade is averaging 24/6/9

Banchero is averaging 25/7/4

Scottie is averaging 20/8/7

I rounded DOWN Cade's and Banchero's numbers, while rounding UP Scottie's. Scottie has officially dipped below 20 PPG. No one would be harping on Scottie if he was doing what they are currently doing.

Scottie is in a tier or two below Cade and Banchero at the moment, and the same flaws we saw in year 1 are showing in year 4. He is exactly the same player from year 1... his stats look better because the offense literally runs through him.

Is it really insane to say Barnes has been leap frogged by Wagner, Sengun, and Jalen Johnson as well? Heck even Jalen Green is averaging 21.5 PPG on the #4 team in the NBA, while having better percentages than Scottie. Scottie's lack of development is a real concern.

[tsherkin]

His efficiency is down pretty much across the board from all locations on the floor by a pretty significant factor compared to last year. Aside from a marginal uptick from 3 and a pretty big jump from short MR, he's down by like 4-5% in most other places. I wonder if they alter his shot diet to cut those out, he starts to look better.

He's UP 8.5% from 3-10. He's down 5.8% from 10-16 and 5.4% from 16-23 feet, but still doing quite well from 10-16 regardless.

He is absolutely useless at the rim, though.

I definitely don't see Cade being a 100 or more TS+ player, but I think he can be average efficiency as he ages.

I mean, that would be 100 TS+. And as a POA guy and a major playmaker, that's not the worst if he constrains his volume lower than where he's at right now. It isn't ideal and it presents a given ceiling, but we knew that of him anyway.

[Scase]

His efficiency is down pretty much across the board from all locations on the floor by a pretty significant factor compared to last year. Aside from a marginal uptick from 3 and a pretty big jump from short MR, he's down by like 4-5% in most other places. I wonder if they alter his shot diet to cut those out, he starts to look better.

He's UP 8.5% from 3-10. He's down 5.8% from 10-16 and 5.4% from 16-23 feet, but still doing quite well from 10-16 regardless.

He is absolutely useless at the rim, though.

I definitely don't see Cade being a 100 or more TS+ player, but I think he can be average efficiency as he ages.

I mean, that would be 100 TS+. And as a POA guy and a major playmaker, that's not the worst if he constrains his volume lower than where he's at right now. It isn't ideal and it presents a given ceiling, but we knew that of him anyway.

That's what I mean, he's taken a huge step improving in one spot, while taking pretty big steps back in the others. The question for all these guys is can they both alter their diets and keep up the efficiency in the areas they are good at, I'm not so sure I see him being a net + efficiency-wise. But he's showing some potential for sure.

As for the TS+ I worded that weirdly, I specifically mean I don't think I ever see him being 100+ TS+, I used "or more" cause I thought all the + signs would be confusing lol.

[PushDaRock]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade is averaging 24/6/9

Banchero is averaging 25/7/4

Scottie is averaging 20/8/7

I rounded DOWN Cade's and Banchero's numbers, while rounding UP Scottie's. Scottie has officially dipped below 20 PPG. No one would be harping on Scottie if he was doing what they are currently doing.

Scottie is in a tier or two below Cade and Banchero at the moment, and the same flaws we saw in year 1 are showing in year 4. He is exactly the same player from year 1... his stats look better because the offense literally runs through him.

Is it really insane to say Barnes has been leap frogged by Wagner, Sengun, and Jalen Johnson as well? Heck even Jalen Green is averaging 21.5 PPG on the #4 team in the NBA, while having better percentages than Scottie. Scottie's lack of development is a real concern.

We are seeing Scottie scoring the exact same PPG as last season while his efficiency is also down 3 TS% and well below league average. If he's going to be this inefficient, you want it to be because he's taking on a massive scoring load, scoring over double teams and etc but not while his scoring average doesn't improve at all. Improvement isn't necessarily linear but he's taken some definite backwards steps this year in some areas. Also factor in that he's putting up these numbers on a really bad team where someone has to score. It's unlikely he would be a 20 ppg scorer on any playoff team right now.

[tsherkin]

That's what I mean, he's taken a huge step improving in one spot, while taking pretty big steps back in the others. The question for all these guys is can they both alter their diets and keep up the efficiency in the areas they are good at, I'm not so sure I see him being a net + efficiency-wise. But he's showing some potential for sure.

It's worth realizing he cut his usage of 10-16 and 16-23 footers, and significantly increased his usage from 3-10, which is where he saw that big leap. He also gets to the rim very little. Less than Barnes, in fact.

As for the TS+ I worded that weirdly, I specifically mean I don't think I ever see him being 100+ TS+, I used "or more" cause I thought all the + signs would be confusing lol.

Ah, you mean > 100 TS+, copy that. Yeah, I agree. He just doesn't have a ton of competitive advantage there, unless perhaps he turns into a 40%+ 3P shooter. Or perhaps if he does shoot more from 3, but even that will have its issues. He just isn't set up to be a high-end scorer. But he does have other contributions to make on O.

[Syd-TK3]

Cade and Paolo are much better then Scottie as scorers I'm not sure how that's even a discussion

[HangTime]

Cade shot 7-26 yesterday, Banchero is 4-17 today.....goes to show that Barnes is allowed to have a 4-16 game. Obviously he needs to be better but it's not the end of the world.

Cade is averaging 24/6/9

Banchero is averaging 25/7/4

Scottie is averaging 20/8/7

I rounded DOWN Cade's and Banchero's numbers, while rounding UP Scottie's. Scottie has officially dipped below 20 PPG. No one would be harping on Scottie if he was doing what they are currently doing.

Scottie is in a tier or two below Cade and Banchero at the moment, and the same flaws we saw in year 1 are showing in year 4. He is exactly the same player from year 1... his stats look better because the offense literally runs through him.

Is it really insane to say Barnes has been leap frogged by Wagner, Sengun, and Jalen Johnson as well? Heck even Jalen Green is averaging 21.5 PPG on the #4 team in the NBA, while having better percentages than Scottie. Scottie's lack of development is a real concern.

We are seeing Scottie scoring the exact same PPG as last season while his efficiency is also down 3 TS% and well below league average. If he's going to be this inefficient, you want it to be because he's taking on a massive scoring load, scoring over double teams and etc but not while his scoring average doesn't improve at all. Improvement isn't necessarily linear but he's taken some definite backwards steps this year in some areas. Also factor in that he's putting up these numbers on a really bad team where someone has to score. It's unlikely he would be a 20 ppg scorer on any playoff team right now.

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

[Tripod]

This just in, a zero level scorer pre-draft is 4-5 PPG behind 2 recent #1 overall picks. Crazy, huh?

But the entire point was that those guys who are better, have garbage nights too. Yet certain people lose their mind when Barnes does.

People freaking out when some guys "pass" him in a given year is also funny. He passed them when he was ROTY and the only AllStar last year. Get used to different guys having the "best year" then others doing it the following year. That's what happens in a year without a legit pre-draft superstar like in a Wemby year. Next year, someone else will jump up while someone else will have a down year.

[tsherkin]

Cade and Paolo are much better then Scottie as scorers I'm not sure how that's even a discussion

Cade isn't considerably better, no. He has a better shot, but the net impact of his scoring isn't any better. He's a better playmaker, but that's another story entirely.

[TheProfessor]

Cade and Paolo are much better then Scottie as scorers I'm not sure how that's even a discussion

Cade isn't considerably better, no. He has a better shot, but the net impact of his scoring isn't any better. He's a better playmaker, but that's another story entirely.

According to EPM and Lebron his offensive impact is significantly better than Scottie. Scottie has been playing terrible recently and the stats show it both box score and impact stats. The worst part of this is, while he has been chucking shots, his defense has decreased as well.

[tsherkin]

According to EPM and Lebron his offensive impact is significantly better than Scottie.

Yes, but that is irrelevant to a comment which focused specifically on scoring

Cade's a considerably better playmaker, so yes, it's quite clear that he's doing better than Scottie right now on offense. That just doesn't matter to what I was talking about.

[Tripod]

I see Cade just had 32-9-7 and efficient.

Then I saw he had 10 turnovers. That's a big number.

[tsherkin]

I see Cade just had 32-9-7 and efficient.

Then I saw he had 10 turnovers. That's a big number.

A disaster cyclone of bad passes in the second, FVV all over him, heh.

[ConSarnit]

Cade is averaging 24/6/9

Banchero is averaging 25/7/4

Scottie is averaging 20/8/7

I rounded DOWN Cade's and Banchero's numbers, while rounding UP Scottie's. Scottie has officially dipped below 20 PPG. No one would be harping on Scottie if he was doing what they are currently doing.

Scottie is in a tier or two below Cade and Banchero at the moment, and the same flaws we saw in year 1 are showing in year 4. He is exactly the same player from year 1... his stats look better because the offense literally runs through him.

Is it really insane to say Barnes has been leap frogged by Wagner, Sengun, and Jalen Johnson as well? Heck even Jalen Green is averaging 21.5 PPG on the #4 team in the NBA, while having better percentages than Scottie. Scottie's lack of development is a real concern.

We are seeing Scottie scoring the exact same PPG as last season while his efficiency is also down 3 TS% and well below league average. If he's going to be this inefficient, you want it to be because he's taking on a massive scoring load, scoring over double teams and etc but not while his scoring average doesn't improve at all. Improvement isn't necessarily linear but he's taken some definite backwards steps this year in some areas. Also factor in that he's putting up these numbers on a really bad team where someone has to score. It's unlikely he would be a 20 ppg scorer on any playoff team right now.

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

[XTC]

We are seeing Scottie scoring the exact same PPG as last season while his efficiency is also down 3 TS% and well below league average. If he's going to be this inefficient, you want it to be because he's taking on a massive scoring load, scoring over double teams and etc but not while his scoring average doesn't improve at all. Improvement isn't necessarily linear but he's taken some definite backwards steps this year in some areas. Also factor in that he's putting up these numbers on a really bad team where someone has to score. It's unlikely he would be a 20 ppg scorer on any playoff team right now.

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

Honestly bro it's not even worth wasting energy anymore. People will make any excuse for Scottie, it's honestly crazy.

People think there's going to be some giant leap he's going to take after year 4. Most players have established themselves in the NBA by year 4... but it's alright, Scottie was an allstar LAST season!

[HangTime]

We are seeing Scottie scoring the exact same PPG as last season while his efficiency is also down 3 TS% and well below league average. If he's going to be this inefficient, you want it to be because he's taking on a massive scoring load, scoring over double teams and etc but not while his scoring average doesn't improve at all. Improvement isn't necessarily linear but he's taken some definite backwards steps this year in some areas. Also factor in that he's putting up these numbers on a really bad team where someone has to score. It's unlikely he would be a 20 ppg scorer on any playoff team right now.

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

He may be in year 4, but did you know notice how different his first 2 year's, and second half of year 3 were.

And yes, he's one of young guys, but he's so far ahead those guys we have. Let the whole team develop first, and he'll sprinkle in things here and there.


People are treating Scottie like a "Normal type of player" that's kind of how Nick Nurse played him, in a "normal role". On the rare occasion we'd see Scottie try to take over, because Fred and Pascal couldn't.

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

[PushDaRock]

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

He may be in year 4, but did you know notice how different his first 2 year's, and second half of year 3 were.

And yes, he's one of young guys, but he's so far ahead those guys we have. Let the whole team develop first, and he'll sprinkle in things here and there.


People are treating Scottie like a "Normal type of player" that's kind of how Nick Nurse played him, in a "normal role". On the rare occasion we'd see Scottie try to take over, because Fred and Pascal couldn't.

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

I have no idea what you're trying to say tbh

[ConSarnit]

Remember, his first 2 years-
we got glimpses, and early it was clear, he was the most talented on the team, but Nurse wouldn't play him in that role.

Year 3 -
before OG traded, he was going off.
After the OG trade, he took on OG's defensive role, which allowed Darko to implement RJ and IQ more on offense.

Year 4 -
The eye and Ankle injury were really tough, and his shooting took a hit.
So He's working on his weakness, and helping develop the younger guys, helping showcase the vets.


Also, He's the most multi-faceted on both sides of the floor, in the group you mentioned. So it might take a while for everything to come together, Scottie's path to his ceiling is not as straight line as the others to their ceiling, but his to ceiling is much higher.

No offense, but this is a lot of excuses. He IS a younger guy. He needs to be improving. Outside of a 2 month hot streak (or at least what now looks like it) his 3pt shooting has been terrible. In the 2nd half of last year he shot 26% from 3.

We don't need him showcasing the vets. We need him to actually get better. This team goes as he goes and if he's taking a back seat to up the trade value of our vets we are screwed. None of the above reasons are valid excuses as to why his shooting hasn't improved, why he hasn't improved at getting to the rim or upped his FTr. His scoring game is just bad. Has barely made any progress as an iso or post-up player. Doesn't get to the rim or draw fouls. Can't shoot 3's. Even if his volume is reduced because he's "showcasing the vets or developing the young guys" he is still inefficient in too many areas. Hell, if he really is taking a step back for these reasons his efficiency should actually be better as he's able to pick his spots more.

It is a real concern that he's in year 4 and his scoring game hasn't really developed (outside of midrange shooting, which is probably the least valuable scoring skill when it's all you have).

He may be in year 4, but did you know notice how different his first 2 year's, and second half of year 3 were.

And yes, he's one of young guys, but he's so far ahead those guys we have. Let the whole team develop first, and he'll sprinkle in things here and there.


People are treating Scottie like a "Normal type of player" that's kind of how Nick Nurse played him, in a "normal role". On the rare occasion we'd see Scottie try to take over, because Fred and Pascal couldn't.

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

Is there any evidence this type of approach works? Even if your "wait for the other guys to catch up" theory is correct why is Barnes choosing to be bad in many scoring areas? Your entire argument is filled with contradictions.

Hey Scottie, why can't you hit 3's? "I can, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why can't you get to the rim consistently or draw fouls? "I can, just waiting for my team to catch up."

Hey Scottie, why haven't your iso or post-up number improved? "I could if I wanted, just waiting for my teammates to catch up."

None of these things have anything to do with "waiting for his teammates". Is he just choosing to shoot poorly from 3 until Walter is in his 3rd year?

Your hypothesis is that Barnes is purposely playing badly while he waits for his teammates to catch up. You are pretty much arguing that Barnes is purposefully sabotaging this team by not playing his best. Name one other successful NBA player who has ever taken this approach. And if your contention is that Barnes needs more reps as a #1 because he didn't get them with FVV/Siakam why isn't he getting them now? First he's hamstrung by FVV and Siakam and now he's waiting for the young guys to catch up. I can't wait for Barnes to finally take charge in 2028.

"Don't worry guys, Barnes is star he's just choosing to hide it from us this season. He could play better if he wanted, make all-NBA and get an extra $40m but he's sacrificing for the team"

Don't you see how bad this argument is?

[tsherkin]

He's like a Chameleon, most people don't see the high-end primary option, but thankfully, that's their loss.

This is pretty empty. We're in year 4 of him not showing floor-raising ability of any real meaning and not being able to put into practice consistent improvements which elevate him to even league-average efficiency. A high-end primary option could do that even on a bad team. He very, very clearly isn't that. Denying that is just delusional at this point. MAYBE he's got a big boost in store for year 5, but that's unlikely based on historical player development trends. And the further into his career he gets, particularly starting the entire time, the lower and lower we see his ultimate ceiling dropping.