How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[douggood]

the pacers are the darling of the board right now. they were a super mid team as well, one trade made them better, who knows in the future we trade ingram/barnes etc for such a piece.

[Tha Cynic]

The Raptors have basically all their draft picks going forward and a roster that has:

Poeltl
Barnes
Ingram
RJ
Quickley
Shead
Agbaji
Dick
Walter
Mogbo
#9 pick this year

You can twist things as much as you want to make yourselves miserable, but this team has tons of flexibility and Masai can basically do whatever he wants. I’m not even sure what people are so worked up about lol. They’re set up well to make trades.

[MEDIC]

the pacers are the darling of the board right now. they were a super mid team as well, one trade made them better, who knows in the future we trade ingram/barnes etc for such a piece.

Exactly. I would have never guessed the Pacers would be a threat to make it to the NBA finals.

At one point we had Rudy Gay, Derozan & Lowry. We thought that team was dead in the water. 1 tradr later & the team was an Eastern Conference threat.

A few years after that, the Raptors win a Championship.

The Raptors are in a good spot right now. They have some decent young talent, draft picks & will probably br a playoff team next season.

Just enjoy the ride.

[MiamiSPX]

Anyone who thinks RealGM commenters would do a better job running an NBA franchise than Masai can’t be taken seriously

Pontificating about what we would do differently is, um, the whole point of this site. I mean, it's right in the name lol.

Yah, thinking about what you would do as the decision maker is half the fun of being a fan, but I think there’s a difference between that and

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Okay, well yeah, that is over-the-top but I am sure the intent was hyperbole to make a point.

I agree that it's nauseating for the same handful of posters to rehash the same bad moves over and over again. On the flipside, it is also nauseating for the other, same handful of posters who refuse to acknowledge that Masai has ever made a bad move, coupled with their view that every other GM who is having success is lucky lol. The answer, as it always is, lies in the middle somewhere.

Anyway, I am taking a glass half full approach. It cannot get any worse (in theory lol) than it has been the last 3 seasons. The East is also pretty trashy, so it's time to start winning. Even if it's just the play-in, sign me up.

[Raps in 4]

the pacers are the darling of the board right now. they were a super mid team as well, one trade made them better, who knows in the future we trade ingram/barnes etc for such a piece.

Not many teams are as stupid as the Kings. Trades like that do happen, but they're exceedingly rare.

Basically, every path towards contention for us requires a miracle.

[Spates]

I don't think this roster is hopeless. I actually think there's a lot of talent. And if scottie is capable of putting together a monster defensive season I can envision the team being a 4-6 seed.

If a bunch of things go right, i could see this happening. But even if it does, what does that mean? T

he East is really bad. You've got 3 good teams at the top in Indiana, NYK and Cleveland. Boston probably takes the year off with Tatum's injury (they are still probably better than us). After that you have the rising young teams in Detroit and Orlando. Then the wild cards in Philly and Milwaukee. We are in the next tier with the Heat, Chicago, Atlanta.

Could we climb a tier? Sure, if everything goes right. Detroit/Orlando could have step back seasons. Philly could remain injured. Bucks could trade Giannis. We would be the skinniest person at fat camp.

It could mean a lot in the new CBA/apron environment where a team like Boston has to trade major pieces to duck the 2nd apron after 2 seasons of contention.

Forgive me because I'm not well versed in the Raps salary caps restraints, but it you can keep your team young and competitive, without depleting assets, you're poised to take a swing when teams at the top of the conference step back.

Most players also have so much room for improvement.

Again, solidifying the starting lineup with a 3 and D SG ala Ochai or someone like Lonzo will set the team up to make the playoffs, I think.

[WuTang_CMB]

The outlook on the team will be a lot different in 12 months

- How does BI workout?
- Which young player pops for us?
- Does Scottie take that next step with a proven scorer in BI ?
- What trades do we make to improve the team? RJ? etc
- Does Masai hit on the 2025 draft?

A lot of questions... but there will be a lot of answers good or bad

Concerns are valid. Let's see

[Spates]

If a bunch of things go right, i could see this happening. But even if it does, what does that mean? T

he East is really bad. You've got 3 good teams at the top in Indiana, NYK and Cleveland. Boston probably takes the year off with Tatum's injury (they are still probably better than us). After that you have the rising young teams in Detroit and Orlando. Then the wild cards in Philly and Milwaukee. We are in the next tier with the Heat, Chicago, Atlanta.

Could we climb a tier? Sure, if everything goes right. Detroit/Orlando could have step back seasons. Philly could remain injured. Bucks could trade Giannis. We would be the skinniest person at fat camp.

But what is the flipside to your sentiments, sit there and do nothing, tear it down again, go all in? All 3 options are still available, no1 just wants to play the waiting game.

Even to all the TWO ppl, what doesn't it matter when we tank, wether that's now or in 3 yrs from now.

Unfortunately, i think our only option now is to sit and do nothing. Just let this roster play it out, there's not much we can change at this point. We committed to this roster when we traded for Ingram.

My only point is to temper expectations. I don't think this is a good team and even if by some series of fortunate events, we can grab the 4th seed, i would caution putting too much stock in that because of the circumstances.

Unless we could nab an undervalued asset the best thing to do is to keep the ship steady. It would be brazen to add to a Barnes/Ingram pairing without seeing what it offers

[Duffman100]

the pacers are the darling of the board right now. they were a super mid team as well, one trade made them better, who knows in the future we trade ingram/barnes etc for such a piece.

Not many teams are as stupid as the Kings. Trades like that do happen, but they're exceedingly rare.

Basically, every path towards contention for us requires a miracle.

A miracle like getting SGA in a trade?

If you look at basically any contending team, they needed a miracle to get them there.

Knicks needed Brunson to blow up and be incredible.
OKC needed SGA to be gifted to them
Pacers needed Haliburton and incredible internal growth from other members (including Siakam pointing to them only for a trade destination).

[Jcity08]

The longterm plan for Ingram I believe is to rebuild his value and move him down the line when things inevitably dont work out.

[nikster]

It is a mid plan that suffers most from not having that core piece (Lowry) that you can pivot roster construction around.

Barnes looks more like a Kirilenko / Thad Young / Al Harrington versatile player than an anchor.

So it seems likely it'll create a short run that will burn out and lead us back into a rebuild.

Missteps in 2022/24 will likely limit the teams direction for most of this decade.

Nobody thought Lowry was an anchor piece you can build around when that era started. And not saying Barnes will get that impactful but he's still young and has been miscast as a #1 option this season and experimenting with his game. he made all star game playing beside Pascal the year before.

[Scase]

I feel like we've had this conversation 1000x somewhere else in this forum. But I COULD be wrong.

For the last 5 or so years...I wonder why?

Likely because some posters have unrealistic expectations, and expect us to be contenders every year, not realizing all teams go through cycles. Thus, why there are different championship teams every season.

Or it's because posters like you have an inability to differentiate between contenders every year, and having a basic plan. This team has been aimless for the last 5 years with no plan in mind.

Siakam/FVV? Let's build around them, except we won't actually build a complimentary roster. Didn't work out? Better let one of them walk in FA and then hold 2 expiring players much longer than we should, but not before we make a short sighted trade for a centre who exacerbates the teams problems.

This went south? Let's trade everyone away and start a rebuild, publicly state this is year one of a rebuild, then less than 6 months later make a win now re-tool trade for BI.

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

[tsherkin]

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

I think at this point, raking the franchise over the coals isn't going to achieve much, yeah? We have some positive things happening right now, regardless of how the past few years have unfolded since the title. We should probably be focusing on that. We certainly aren't positioned to contend any time soon, but even drafting Flagg wasn't going to make that happen. So we should be looking forward to improved quality of games, and a little more excitement in our recreation other than hoping for lottery balls bouncing our way after a dreadful season.

[nikster]

the pacers are the darling of the board right now. they were a super mid team as well, one trade made them better, who knows in the future we trade ingram/barnes etc for such a piece.

Not many teams are as stupid as the Kings. Trades like that do happen, but they're exceedingly rare.

Basically, every path towards contention for us requires a miracle.

A miracle like getting SGA in a trade?

If you look at basically any contending team, they needed a miracle to get them there.

Knicks needed Brunson to blow up and be incredible.
OKC needed SGA to be gifted to them
Pacers needed Haliburton and incredible internal growth from other members (including Siakam pointing to them only for a trade destination).

Yup, and Denver drafted a GOAT during a taco bell commercial. Minnesota got Edwards with essentialy their 3rd first overall pick in 6 years (starting with Wiggins in 2014). Lakers and Clippers had stars force their way their due to location etc..

"Miracles" is the name of the game

[TheGeneral99]

Looks like Jakobe got a haircut...

[img]

[ontnut]

For the last 5 or so years...I wonder why?

Likely because some posters have unrealistic expectations, and expect us to be contenders every year, not realizing all teams go through cycles. Thus, why there are different championship teams every season.

Or it's because posters like you have an inability to differentiate between contenders every year, and having a basic plan. This team has been aimless for the last 5 years with no plan in mind.

Siakam/FVV? Let's build around them, except we won't actually build a complimentary roster. Didn't work out? Better let one of them walk in FA and then hold 2 expiring players much longer than we should, but not before we make a short sighted trade for a centre who exacerbates the teams problems.

This went south? Let's trade everyone away and start a rebuild, publicly state this is year one of a rebuild, then less than 6 months later make a win now re-tool trade for BI.

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

This last sentence is where the crux of the problem is.
How do we know it "just won't work"?
I've got my doubts about roster construction like many others do, and the cap situation isn't great. But to say that it won't work when we haven't seen the full product on the court, and half of the roster are rookies/on rookie deals, nevermind the prospect of future moves, is the same kind of attitude that even I was guilty of during the Derozan and Bosh years.

IND made the ECF and appear on their way to the Finals. I honestly don't see a huge gulf between a healthy Raptors team and this Pacers team. There's an opportunity to make some deep playoff runs in the East in the coming year or two, so why not try for it? Our future assets are intact, and we have young players to fall back on if a full tear down is required in 2 years. Would I rather us have lucked into Wemby or Flagg? Maybe. SA is laughing right now but that was a mostly a product of LUCK, with some GM planning/skill sprinkled in. I wouldn't exactly trade our position for many other "tanking" teams other than them.


I was very down on the Raps last year, moreso than most. I took the under on the Vegas wins bets, so it's not like I'm some blind homer. But it feels like I'm now higher on the Raps for '25-26 than most. Will wait to see how the draft and FA pans out, but I'm already leaning to betting the over on the Vegas win totals, whatever they are.

[Raps in 4]

Likely because some posters have unrealistic expectations, and expect us to be contenders every year, not realizing all teams go through cycles. Thus, why there are different championship teams every season.

Or it's because posters like you have an inability to differentiate between contenders every year, and having a basic plan. This team has been aimless for the last 5 years with no plan in mind.

Siakam/FVV? Let's build around them, except we won't actually build a complimentary roster. Didn't work out? Better let one of them walk in FA and then hold 2 expiring players much longer than we should, but not before we make a short sighted trade for a centre who exacerbates the teams problems.

This went south? Let's trade everyone away and start a rebuild, publicly state this is year one of a rebuild, then less than 6 months later make a win now re-tool trade for BI.

People understand there are cycles, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone complaining that we are in a downtime, what people are complaining about is the listless nature of it, and constant attempts to recapture something from 5-10 years ago that just won't work.

This last sentence is where the crux of the problem is.
How do we know it "just won't work"?
I've got my doubts about roster construction like many others do, and the cap situation isn't great. But to say that it won't work when we haven't seen the full product on the court, and half of the roster are rookies/on rookie deals, nevermind the prospect of future moves, is the same kind of attitude that even I was guilty of during the Derozan and Bosh years.

IND made the ECF and appear on their way to the Finals. I honestly don't see a huge gulf between a healthy Raptors team and this Pacers team. There's an opportunity to make some deep playoff runs in the East in the coming year or two, so why not try for it? Our future assets are intact, and we have young players to fall back on if a full tear down is required in 2 years. Would I rather us have lucked into Wemby or Flagg? Maybe. SA is laughing right now but that was a mostly a product of LUCK, with some GM planning/skill sprinkled in. I wouldn't exactly trade our position for many other "tanking" teams other than them.


I was very down on the Raps last year, moreso than most. I took the under on the Vegas wins bets, so it's not like I'm some blind homer. But it feels like I'm now higher on the Raps for '25-26 than most. Will wait to see how the draft and FA pans out, but I'm already leaning to betting the over on the Vegas win totals, whatever they are.

There is a pretty huge gulf between Hali and BI/Scottie (whoever you consider to be our best player). We're still searching for our Hali. Maybe Scottie or JaKobe or someone else becomes that player, but it would be a surprise if it happened.

[ontnut]

.

[earthtone]

Pontificating about what we would do differently is, um, the whole point of this site. I mean, it's right in the name lol.

Yah, thinking about what you would do as the decision maker is half the fun of being a fan, but I think there’s a difference between that and

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Okay, well yeah, that is over-the-top but I am sure the intent was hyperbole to make a point.

I agree that it's nauseating for the same handful of posters to rehash the same bad moves over and over again. On the flipside, it is also nauseating for the other, same handful of posters who refuse to acknowledge that Masai has ever made a bad move, coupled with their view that every other GM who is having success is lucky lol. The answer, as it always is, lies in the middle somewhere.

Anyway, I am taking a glass half full approach. It cannot get any worse (in theory lol) than it has been the last 3 seasons. The East is also pretty trashy, so it's time to start winning. Even if it's just the play-in, sign me up.

It was the listing of the “consensus” moves that the forum would’ve made that caused me to think it wasn’t hyperbole and drove me to comment.

I think the contingent of doomers is larger (or at least louder) than the supporters, but I definitely agree on looking forward to this season and watching a team chase the playoffs instead of the bottom of the standings

[Raps in 4]

I disagree. Hali's good, but he's not THAT good. He's a Siakam-tier guy at the guard spot. No true superstars on IND. They're doing it with depth and team play, with a healthy dose of injury luck to their opponents in back to back years.

Hali was a top-10 player this season in terms of impact. He is a much better player than Siakam ever was. Just because he isn't a scorer doesn't mean he isn't a superstar. He's a superstar in the mold of old school PGs like CP3, Nash, and Stockton. Steph has wired people's brains into thinking that only scoring PGs are effectuve in the modern NBA.

Haliburton had a +5.2 OEPM this season, putting him only behind Jokic, SGA, and Giannis (and tied with Steph).