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RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated

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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#101 » by James_Raptors » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:14 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#102 » by dballislife » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:17 pm

im watching these playoffs and a lot of teams are missing a guy that can drive into the paint and get you buckets inside, thats one thing rj is great at...hes also a very good passer and good 3 point shooter, so he does 3 very important aspects of basketball well which makes rj is super useful nba player...if we had sga lol rj is a good enough second option, of course i want more but good enough is good enough
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#103 » by DreamTeam09 » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:19 pm

tsherkin wrote:
James_Raptors wrote:Excellent post.


Thank you. Hopefully, without meaning to be snarky, that provides some clarity on my position.

DreamTeam09 wrote:What does this even mean, he's a 20 5 n 5 player but he's simply not that good? He's closer to being an AS than out of the league, wow what a wide range, but he's not close to either ? It just seems like y'all don't wanna give him his props because he's not the player y'all would like to have. If Toronto is a top 4-5 team he's definitely up for AS consideration

Garland made the AS game as a 20 n 6 player, Mobley at 18 n 9.


So, there are components to this beyond their raw box score averages.

All too regularly, people look at per-game averages and start salivating. But like I've said elsewhere, Ricky Davis has posted like this, and no one sane would be crowing about Ricky Davis. The trick with RJ is all in whether or not you believe he can improve with more strategic usage... and whether or not you care, given his other deficiencies, right?

RJ put up 21.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg and 5.4 apg in 32.2 mpg. He shot 46.8 / 35.0 / 63.0, and shot 52.2% inside the arc, taking 22.9% of his 3PA from the corners.

That was 54.7% TS (under 57.6% league average). He was a +0.7 O-EPM guy (109th in the league), -0.4 D-EPM (322nd in the league).

So go ahead and look at Garland and Mobley by comparison.

Mobley was a DPOY center, 28th in the league in D-EPM, and was a 22/11 guy per-36 on 63.3% TS.

Garland was a 40% 3pt shooter who was producing 6.7 apg in 30.7 mpg, and posted a 60% TS on the season while posting the 7th-highest O-EPM in the league.

These specific numbers aren't themselves the be-all, end-all, of course, but they do highlight a large gap between your selected players and Barrett.

Barrett was not comparable to these guys just because he was posting 21/6/5 raw.


I can say the same thing in reverse, any player who puts up good/decent stats in a non-winning environment is automatically Ricky Davis or DeMar or Zach lavine, & it's there fault Soley? Context is needed, We've seen those players in good winning environments at various moments in times. No1 is perfect, a lot of players have their faults - but the extreme of "anyone could put up those counting stats" or the fact that he's not a 40% 3pt shooter lockdown defender therefore he's useless is also overblown tremendously. He's 24yrs old and would be the 3rd pick in this draft & ppl are using him in trade down scenarios, but w/e I digress
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#104 » by DreamTeam09 » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:23 pm

dballislife wrote:im watching these playoffs and a lot of teams are missing a guy that can drive into the paint and get you buckets inside, thats one thing rj is great at...hes also a very good passer and good 3 point shooter, so he does 3 very important aspects of basketball well which makes rj is super useful nba player...if we had sga lol rj is a good enough second option, of course i want more but good enough is good enough


Ben Mathurain put up 25+ last night attacking the basket in the NBA finals, I like RJ a little bit more, but similar players
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#105 » by James_Raptors » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:33 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
James_Raptors wrote:Excellent post.


Thank you. Hopefully, without meaning to be snarky, that provides some clarity on my position.

DreamTeam09 wrote:What does this even mean, he's a 20 5 n 5 player but he's simply not that good? He's closer to being an AS than out of the league, wow what a wide range, but he's not close to either ? It just seems like y'all don't wanna give him his props because he's not the player y'all would like to have. If Toronto is a top 4-5 team he's definitely up for AS consideration

Garland made the AS game as a 20 n 6 player, Mobley at 18 n 9.


So, there are components to this beyond their raw box score averages.

All too regularly, people look at per-game averages and start salivating. But like I've said elsewhere, Ricky Davis has posted like this, and no one sane would be crowing about Ricky Davis. The trick with RJ is all in whether or not you believe he can improve with more strategic usage... and whether or not you care, given his other deficiencies, right?

RJ put up 21.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg and 5.4 apg in 32.2 mpg. He shot 46.8 / 35.0 / 63.0, and shot 52.2% inside the arc, taking 22.9% of his 3PA from the corners.

That was 54.7% TS (under 57.6% league average). He was a +0.7 O-EPM guy (109th in the league), -0.4 D-EPM (322nd in the league).

So go ahead and look at Garland and Mobley by comparison.

Mobley was a DPOY center, 28th in the league in D-EPM, and was a 22/11 guy per-36 on 63.3% TS.

Garland was a 40% 3pt shooter who was producing 6.7 apg in 30.7 mpg, and posted a 60% TS on the season while posting the 7th-highest O-EPM in the league.

These specific numbers aren't themselves the be-all, end-all, of course, but they do highlight a large gap between your selected players and Barrett.

Barrett was not comparable to these guys just because he was posting 21/6/5 raw.


I can say the same thing in reverse, any player who puts up good/decent stats in a non-winning environment is automatically Ricky Davis or DeMar or Zach lavine, & it's there fault Soley? Context is needed, We've seen those players in good winning environments at various moments in times. No1 is perfect, a lot of players have their faults - but the extreme of "anyone could put up those counting stats" or the fact that he's not a 40% 3pt shooter lockdown defender therefore he's useless is also overblown tremendously. He's 24yrs old and would be the 3rd pick in this draft & ppl are using him in trade down scenarios, but w/e I digress


-RJ is turning 25 in 2 days, so saying he is 24 is a bit semantical, at best. He also has over 400 NBA games played and entering his 7th NBA season.
-He's looking for a new contract (this will be his 2nd last season). He's making 30-ish mill his final season. Do you think RJ Barrett is going to take a pay cut? How does that fit into our salary structure? In today's NBA you need shooters, especially deep threats. It's not as simple as saying RJ struggles at the 3. So does Jakob (lol) and Scottie.

At the very least you recognize that this current version of RJ needs to be upgraded, either by his own play (if he stays, for now), through trade, or someone off the bench busts out (maybe Ochai, Dick or Walter, for example)
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#106 » by HumbleRen » Thu Jun 12, 2025 9:50 pm

James_Raptors wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)


Nailed it. RJ’s effectiveness diminishes as more competent scoring players are on the team. It’s why Knicks shipped him out of there.

RJ has a path to be on very good teams but it will not be as a starter. This Raps team is perfect for him, very mediocre floor and ceiling.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#107 » by earthtone » Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:01 pm

James_Raptors wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, [b]RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. [\b]If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)

Saying RJ can’t improve on his game is an opinion.

He’s already made increases in every raw counting stat, efficiency stat, and impact metric since joining the Raptors. Its possible he regresses, its possible he plateaus, its possible he improves.

I tend towards the latter, you clearly lean towards to former, but to say there’s no place for opinion when analyzing the game makes no sense. We’re all projecting and making assumptions based on a combination of data + the eye test.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#108 » by tsherkin » Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:13 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:I can say the same thing in reverse, any player who puts up good/decent stats in a non-winning environment is automatically Ricky Davis or DeMar or Zach lavine, & it's there fault Soley? Context is needed, We've seen those players in good winning environments at various moments in times. No1 is perfect, a lot of players have their faults - but the extreme of "anyone could put up those counting stats" or the fact that he's not a 40% 3pt shooter lockdown defender therefore he's useless is also overblown tremendously. He's 24yrs old and would be the 3rd pick in this draft & ppl are using him in trade down scenarios, but w/e I digress


Right, but again, we're talking like -3% rTS. That's a fairly weighty component to this, along with his skill deficiencies. And it's been that way for 7 years without a lot of upward arc.

I like arc; you've seen me interested in seeing what he can do for us in the new environment in this very thread, but it IS important to be cognizant of what we're dealing with, what he can and cannot do, what is and isn't likely to change. So skepticism over his value does make some sense, especially as we begin to consider the magnitude of change which would need to happen in order to merit keeping him at his current contract, and the fairly strict parameters with which we have to work as far as supporting his game.

earthtone wrote:Saying RJ can’t improve on his game is an opinion.

He’s already made increases in every raw counting stat, efficiency stat, and impact metric since joining the Raptors. Its possible he regresses, its possible he plateaus, its possible he improves.


He hasn't actually improved his efficiency outside of that partial season after the trade, though. And he's regressed at the foul line without consistent improvement on his ATB 3s.


There IS a chance that he can improve some. He's entering what is typically thought of as his prime years, after all. But we haven't seen any kind of real arc of improvement in his shooting ability, which is his first major issue on O, and contributes heavily to his inefficiency. His D has improved to acceptable and his passing has improved, both of which are encouraging. So there's a chance, and seeing him work in a more permissive environment may reveal that we CAN rely on him in certain ways (such as bombing more from the corner and stripping away any kind of shooting outside of the paint otherwise) and turn that into a workable player...

But that does get us back to "is that worth $30+ mil a year when we have other guys coming up?"

So we have to see what he does, really, is what it keeps coming back to.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#109 » by DreamTeam09 » Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:23 pm

tsherkin wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:I can say the same thing in reverse, any player who puts up good/decent stats in a non-winning environment is automatically Ricky Davis or DeMar or Zach lavine, & it's there fault Soley? Context is needed, We've seen those players in good winning environments at various moments in times. No1 is perfect, a lot of players have their faults - but the extreme of "anyone could put up those counting stats" or the fact that he's not a 40% 3pt shooter lockdown defender therefore he's useless is also overblown tremendously. He's 24yrs old and would be the 3rd pick in this draft & ppl are using him in trade down scenarios, but w/e I digress


Right, but again, we're talking like -3% rTS. That's a fairly weighty component to this, along with his skill deficiencies. And it's been that way for 7 years without a lot of upward arc.

I like arc; you've seen me interested in seeing what he can do for us in the new environment in this very thread, but it IS important to be cognizant of what we're dealing with, what he can and cannot do, what is and isn't likely to change. So skepticism over his value does make some sense, especially as we begin to consider the magnitude of change which would need to happen in order to merit keeping him at his current contract, and the fairly strict parameters with which we have to work as far as supporting his game.

earthtone wrote:Saying RJ can’t improve on his game is an opinion.

He’s already made increases in every raw counting stat, efficiency stat, and impact metric since joining the Raptors. Its possible he regresses, its possible he plateaus, its possible he improves.


He hasn't actually improved his efficiency outside of that partial season after the trade, though. And he's regressed at the foul line without consistent improvement on his ATB 3s.


There IS a chance that he can improve some. He's entering what is typically thought of as his prime years, after all. But we haven't seen any kind of real arc of improvement in his shooting ability, which is his first major issue on O, and contributes heavily to his inefficiency. His D has improved to acceptable and his passing has improved, both of which are encouraging. So there's a chance, and seeing him work in a more permissive environment may reveal that we CAN rely on him in certain ways (such as bombing more from the corner and stripping away any kind of shooting outside of the paint otherwise) and turn that into a workable player...

But that does get us back to "is that worth $30+ mil a year when we have other guys coming up?"

So we have to see what he does, really, is what it keeps coming back to.


Again the context was that last yr was a developmental year, where multiple players were put in positions of varying developmental degrees. The first year he came, like you said you saw the uptick in efficiency. I suspect an uptick in everyone's efficiency when we aren't playing 2ways & 10days for the majority of the season
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#110 » by GLF » Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:25 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
James_Raptors wrote:Excellent post.


Thank you. Hopefully, without meaning to be snarky, that provides some clarity on my position.

DreamTeam09 wrote:What does this even mean, he's a 20 5 n 5 player but he's simply not that good? He's closer to being an AS than out of the league, wow what a wide range, but he's not close to either ? It just seems like y'all don't wanna give him his props because he's not the player y'all would like to have. If Toronto is a top 4-5 team he's definitely up for AS consideration

Garland made the AS game as a 20 n 6 player, Mobley at 18 n 9.


So, there are components to this beyond their raw box score averages.

All too regularly, people look at per-game averages and start salivating. But like I've said elsewhere, Ricky Davis has posted like this, and no one sane would be crowing about Ricky Davis. The trick with RJ is all in whether or not you believe he can improve with more strategic usage... and whether or not you care, given his other deficiencies, right?

RJ put up 21.1 ppg, 6.3 rpg and 5.4 apg in 32.2 mpg. He shot 46.8 / 35.0 / 63.0, and shot 52.2% inside the arc, taking 22.9% of his 3PA from the corners.

That was 54.7% TS (under 57.6% league average). He was a +0.7 O-EPM guy (109th in the league), -0.4 D-EPM (322nd in the league).

So go ahead and look at Garland and Mobley by comparison.

Mobley was a DPOY center, 28th in the league in D-EPM, and was a 22/11 guy per-36 on 63.3% TS.

Garland was a 40% 3pt shooter who was producing 6.7 apg in 30.7 mpg, and posted a 60% TS on the season while posting the 7th-highest O-EPM in the league.

These specific numbers aren't themselves the be-all, end-all, of course, but they do highlight a large gap between your selected players and Barrett.

Barrett was not comparable to these guys just because he was posting 21/6/5 raw.


I can say the same thing in reverse, any player who puts up good/decent stats in a non-winning environment is automatically Ricky Davis or DeMar or Zach lavine, & it's there fault Soley? Context is needed, We've seen those players in good winning environments at various moments in times. No1 is perfect, a lot of players have their faults - but the extreme of "anyone could put up those counting stats" or the fact that he's not a 40% 3pt shooter lockdown defender therefore he's useless is also overblown tremendously. He's 24yrs old and would be the 3rd pick in this draft & ppl are using him in trade down scenarios, but w/e I digress


Thank you. Everything is so extreme with people on this forum. Right when a player isn’t a 3 and D player or a number one option they act like the player ain’t **** and could never be apart of a winning environment. They act like they can’t have any positive impact on the game. It’s so weird.

And this thing about anyone can put up his stats is bull. Everyone cannot give you 20,5 and 5 because if they could everyone would be doing it and they’re not. People need to get real. It’s not easy to average 20 points in the NBA contrary to popular belief. I agree that counting stats alone don’t tell the whole story, but to ignore it completely just bc you don’t like a certain player is a bit much.

Also RJ has been a much better playoff performer than IQ bc he can handle physicality in a way IQ can’t. Just because a player can shoot 3s at an elite level doesn’t mean they are more likely to produce in a winning environment or in the playoffs. And I like IQ, I only bring him up bc people get on RJ way more than they get on IQ and he’s proven more in his career so far when it counts.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#111 » by tsherkin » Thu Jun 12, 2025 10:40 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:Again the context was that last yr was a developmental year, where multiple players were put in positions of varying developmental degrees. The first year he came, like you said you saw the uptick in efficiency. I suspect an uptick in everyone's efficiency when we aren't playing 2ways & 10days for the majority of the season


Okay, but let's look at that.

First of all, if you're that bad relative to league average in a non-ideal scenario, you're a very limited player who shouldn't really be a feature guy because adversity is going to tear you apart... and lo, right? He can't shoot for beans except from the right corner and has always been a weak FT shooter.

We love that he creates opportunities at the rim, even if he's a considerably below-average finisher there. We've had the discussion that he's generally been on some pretty poorly-spaced teams in his career, so there's any hope that he can do SOMETHING with that, but we do need to acknowledge that he's like discount Russell Westbrook as a scorer, lacking any kind of counter besides "HURRR RIM" at the moment, and lacking Westbrook's insane athleticism.

-3% rTS was a specific value, but.... he's been at -8.6, -3.7, -5.5, -5.0, +0.0, and -2.9.

So the odds are, he's going to be an inefficient player again this year, without some major changes, and he has a LARGE improvement to make to become worthwhile as a feature component of our offense, right?

Okay, so let's look again at some of what went into how things happened last year, yes?

He was a 53.6% TS player for the Knicks prior to the trade, looking essentially the same as he has his whole career.

Then he comes to our team and goes bonkers at 61.5% TS, which is a MASSIVE deviation from his usual play.

How?

Well, for starters, he jumped from 33.2 to 39.2% from 3, in the main because he was shooting much better from the corner: 43.6% vs. 38.8%. He's a career 37% shooter from there, though he's posted 40%+ in two other seasons (including this year).

The other big difference was that he set a career-high in FG% from 0-3 and 3-10 feet, and a meaningless career-high from 16-23 (he took too few for it to matter). But, as a career 35.8% shooter from 3-10, he shot 45.1% there for us (39.2% this year). It's 3.1% better than his previous career-high which, of course, is concerning due to sample and deviation from his normal performance.

But the big ticket was that he took 43.1% (!!) of his shots from 0-3 feet. He hasn't been above 36.4% in any other season. And he shot a career-high of 73.1% there, outpacing his previous high of 69.4% (and his career average of 62.2%). This year, he shot 62.4%, which is very much more RJ-ish.

So the first step is to look at how many times I had to say "career-high" while discussing this short sample. For a team which was 24th in the league on O, and specifically 27th in 3P%.

OG went away in the trade which brought us RJ, and he had Siakam for like 12 games, which didn't really affect his averages. He played his first game for us on January 1st.


So he crazily outperformed his normal self in an environment which wasn't really significantly better than what we saw this season.

You know I'm interested in seeing what he does with Quick healthy and BI on the floor helping to open things up, but there does have to be acknowledgement of exactly what was happening after the trade. That proportion of shots at the rim, shooting 3.2% of his shots from 10-23 feet, setting career-highs from the corner 3 and from both 0-3 and 3-10 feet... all to get himself to +2% rTS for less than half a season.

We need to temper our expectations a little bit. It would be a nice story if he could come through for us and justify his contract, but we're gonna need scoring next year, and quality scoring... and he doesn't have an awesome history of that, and he has not been particularly good in either of his postseason appearances, either. Which, given his particular skill profile, about tracks.

So when you're looking at stuff like "developmental seasons" and what-not, it's worth realizing that he's proving that he can only really score well under ideal circumstances, which has to be fairly concerning for his utility as a volume option and postseason play. And while I hope he can get beyond that, and am open to seeing what he looks like to start the season, there has to be preparation for the idea that we're not going to see anything like what we saw after the trade from him ever again. Kind of like when Mike James shot like 44% on 5 3PA/g for us that one year.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#112 » by Scase » Fri Jun 13, 2025 1:00 am

tsherkin wrote:
Scase wrote:Well thats the thing though, Magette and DD had more success, but the end result is all the same. People need to stop hoping that players from that same mold suddenly turn into "winning" players.


This doesn't make any sense. It's disconnected from anything I said. RJ can be a contributing player. We don't need 25 ppg out of him, and he might be quite useful to us offensively. He may not, but he has some demonstrable skillsets which are valuable. Whether he's a bench guy or a starter, I don't care, I haven't commented either way thus far.

RJ is 25, and going into his 7th year. People want to **** on Scottie for not growing enough, but for some reason still have the young tag thrown on RJ?


RJ has some specific skillsets which Scottie does not, though, and that leaves him potential value. It's on you if the only role you can see is starting and being fed significant volume. *shrug*

Any player can be a contributing player, the question is whether or not they can contribute enough, or can be a net positive. I don't believe he can do either because his deficiencies outweigh his skills.

The only role for him in my eyes is a 6th man, definitely not starter. The issue is that I have zero faith this org will ever play him in the role that is best suited to his talents, it's not that he can't perform well, but that it's just never going to happen. So I'd much rather move him than waste time with him being a major contributor to a lacklustre starting 5.

My comment about Scottie wasn't like I have some sky high expectations of him either, you and I have discussed him at length. But in terms of this thread and people calling him underrated, I think it's absurd to expect RJ to take some new leap in year 7 at 25 years old, history doesn't support that.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#113 » by tsherkin » Fri Jun 13, 2025 1:05 am

Scase wrote:Any player can be a contributing player, the question is whether or not they can contribute enough, or can be a net positive.


That isn't a true statement.

I don't believe he can do either because his deficiencies outweigh his skills.


That is quite possible, yes.

The only role for him in my eyes is a 6th man, definitely not starter.



That is also possible, and the most likely state of things. Without change, he is an inefficient volume scorer who provides mediocre defense with good passing and a lot of rim/foul pressure, which is of only so much value, that's true.

The issue is that I have zero faith this org will ever play him in the role that is best suited to his talents, it's not that he can't perform well, but that it's just never going to happen. So I'd much rather move him than waste time with him being a major contributor to a lacklustre starting 5.


And that may well happen, but unless a good deal comes along, we should be seeing what he can do in a more permissive, favorable environment. If only to pump his value, if possible.

My comment about Scottie wasn't like I have some sky high expectations of him either, you and I have discussed him at length. But in terms of this thread and people calling him underrated, I think it's absurd to expect RJ to take some new leap in year 7 at 25 years old, history doesn't support that.


But again, there is a difference between the two. Scottie isn't a good shooter anywhere. RJ is at least a good shoot from the corner 3 and does have the ability to both get to the rim and draw fouls better than Scottie. And while RJ's blip after the trade is similar in length to Scottie's blip from 3, there are some career-length trends with RJ which are at least more intriguing than with Scottie, scoring-wise. Worth a look in the first chunk of the season to see if spacing and other playmakers can bring it out of him again... even if we end up trading him anyway.

That was what I was saying.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#114 » by Indeed » Fri Jun 13, 2025 1:21 am

James_Raptors wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)


If you don't watch the games, you might look at NBA playtype stats. Barrett is better being an off ball with cuts.
He plays both on and off the ball, able to shoot the 3s.

What you are describing is Barnes, so inefficient being both on and off ball.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#115 » by Scase » Fri Jun 13, 2025 1:56 am

James_Raptors wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)

Just wanted to say this is an excellent post.

tsherkin wrote:
Scase wrote:Any player can be a contributing player, the question is whether or not they can contribute enough, or can be a net positive.


That isn't a true statement.

I don't believe he can do either because his deficiencies outweigh his skills.


That is quite possible, yes.

The only role for him in my eyes is a 6th man, definitely not starter.



That is also possible, and the most likely state of things. Without change, he is an inefficient volume scorer who provides mediocre defense with good passing and a lot of rim/foul pressure, which is of only so much value, that's true.

The issue is that I have zero faith this org will ever play him in the role that is best suited to his talents, it's not that he can't perform well, but that it's just never going to happen. So I'd much rather move him than waste time with him being a major contributor to a lacklustre starting 5.


And that may well happen, but unless a good deal comes along, we should be seeing what he can do in a more permissive, favorable environment. If only to pump his value, if possible.

My comment about Scottie wasn't like I have some sky high expectations of him either, you and I have discussed him at length. But in terms of this thread and people calling him underrated, I think it's absurd to expect RJ to take some new leap in year 7 at 25 years old, history doesn't support that.


But again, there is a difference between the two. Scottie isn't a good shooter anywhere. RJ is at least a good shoot from the corner 3 and does have the ability to both get to the rim and draw fouls better than Scottie. And while RJ's blip after the trade is similar in length to Scottie's blip from 3, there are some career-length trends with RJ which are at least more intriguing than with Scottie, scoring-wise. Worth a look in the first chunk of the season to see if spacing and other playmakers can bring it out of him again... even if we end up trading him anyway.

That was what I was saying.


RE : RJ/Scottie tidbit, why is the fact that RJ has a good shot from the corner some sort of metric that determines he's got a better chance to take some step much further in his career? Unless you are being specific only to offence, I don't think that is at all accurate.

Scottie is a million times better on defence than RJ, and I see a path to Scottie being passable on offence while being one of the leagues best defenders as way more likely than RJs defence being passable and one of the leagues best offensive weapons.

Scotties potential on defence is well beyond RJs potential on offence, and if I was a betting man on who is having the better career and taking a leap, I'm not putting my money on RJ because of a 3p shot from 1 spot on the court.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#116 » by tsherkin » Fri Jun 13, 2025 2:21 am

Scase wrote:RE : RJ/Scottie tidbit, why is the fact that RJ has a good shot from the corner some sort of metric that determines he's got a better chance to take some step much further in his career? Unless you are being specific only to offence, I don't think that is at all accurate.


That remark obviously only applies to offense, and it's worth mentioning because if he can shoot 40% from the corner, it can make him a reliable spacing threat when he isn't doing other stuff, while also helping to elevate his efficiency. I'm sorry if that wasn't clearer earlier.

Scottie is a million times better on defence than RJ, and I see a path to Scottie being passable on offence while being one of the leagues best defenders as way more likely than RJs defence being passable and one of the leagues best offensive weapons.


At no point have I been discussing RJ as becoming "one of the league's best offensive weapons" anywhere. That is a straw man. I'm talking about RJ becoming a passable/useful offensive piece, man, and potentially building his value in advance of moving him. Also, I have not been talking about moving Scottie for anyone but Giannis, really, so I'm particularly uncertain where you formed the basis of that counterpoint.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#117 » by Scase » Fri Jun 13, 2025 2:27 am

tsherkin wrote:
Scase wrote:RE : RJ/Scottie tidbit, why is the fact that RJ has a good shot from the corner some sort of metric that determines he's got a better chance to take some step much further in his career? Unless you are being specific only to offence, I don't think that is at all accurate.


That remark obviously only applies to offense, and it's worth mentioning because if he can shoot 40% from the corner, it can make him a reliable spacing threat when he isn't doing other stuff, while also helping to elevate his efficiency. I'm sorry if that wasn't clearer earlier.

Scottie is a million times better on defence than RJ, and I see a path to Scottie being passable on offence while being one of the leagues best defenders as way more likely than RJs defence being passable and one of the leagues best offensive weapons.


At no point have I been discussing RJ as becoming "one of the league's best offensive weapons" anywhere. That is a straw man. I'm talking about RJ becoming a passable/useful offensive piece, man, and potentially building his value in advance of moving him. Also, I have not been talking about moving Scottie for anyone but Giannis, really, so I'm particularly uncertain where you formed the basis of that counterpoint.

It's not a straw man, it was hyperbole, my bad lol.

My point was less directed at you specifically, and more so at the crowd that thinks Scottie is cooked, but RJ is primed for some next step.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#118 » by ConSarnit » Fri Jun 13, 2025 3:06 am

What is going on in this thread? Multiple posters saying RJ is a good 3pt shooter. He’s a career 35% 3pt shooter. That’s below league average. When you consider 3pt% by position he rates even lower (league average at sg is 37%).

You guys can like RJ. He does some things well. But when you make claims that are factually incorrect you lose credibility.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#119 » by ConSarnit » Fri Jun 13, 2025 3:15 am

Indeed wrote:
James_Raptors wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:We all see the game completely different, I just don't understand why some may feel like they have to make definitive statements & leave no room for growth, interpretation, or grace for possibly being wrong. But hey this is a forum afterall...


Because basketball isn't a simple eye test, opinion vs opinion. Some advanced metrics matter, and in that regard, RJ cannot out-run the holes in his game. If he was on a reduced salary playing a 6th man role in specific key situation, sure, maybe we can discuss that. It's simply too difficult ho hide his defensive liabilities AND the fact that he lacks a mid-range shot, AND that he can't even muster to shoot FT's at a 70% clip when the SG league average is in the 80%+ range, or that he's one of the worst 4PT shooting SG's in the league, AND that although he's a slasher (which is great, and we need) he finishes predictably at a low/less than league avg rate. Do you see why this is more than simply opinion stances here and that some basketball statistics are involved?

And now we have BI. We still have one basketball, there simply isn't that many mouths to feed. The problem with RJ is that if he's not getting his touches, he's now a marginal scorer. Because he's so inefficient, historically and more of an ISO player, he needs the ball in his hands, was a high USG player, and takes a lot of shats (once again, making up for his inefficiency)


If you don't watch the games, you might look at NBA playtype stats. Barrett is better being an off ball with cuts.
He plays both on and off the ball, able to shoot the 3s.

What you are describing is Barnes, so inefficient being both on and off ball.


Barrett has never had a season above 50th percentile on cuts. Barrett’s cut frequency is also around 5%, which would rank him around 300th league wide. So not only is Barrett a low volume cutter, when he does he’s bad at it.

He shoots below league average from 3 and plays a position with the highest shooting 3pt%.

How are you going to tell people to look at play type stats when you are completely wrong about them?
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#120 » by GLF » Fri Jun 13, 2025 3:35 am

And this thread just went to **** like every other tread lol. The optimists can’t have nothing damn LOL

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