Quickley or Shead?

[Jakay]

Shooting ability is definitely a talent and it trumps most other things when pushed come to shove.

Assists, where other are put in a position to do that scoring, is another pretty vital skill that stands the test of time. And in that sense it's no contest who wins that battle.

To me it's more of a wash. IQ cannot get assists and run an offence like Shead can. Not even close.

Luckily they can also co-exist.

IQ is 20th in the NBA in assists, and has the lowest amount of turnovers among players in the top 20 in assists.

Shead FWIW is 30th in assists, and has the lowest amount of turnovers among players in the top 30 in assists.

This board has lost the plot.

There's a measure of team style involved there, JKidd was terrible in the A/TO ratio (cetainly in the fist half of his career), but no one is calling him a bad PG. In per/36 though, Jamal is like 9.X vs IQ being 6.X in assists. That doesn't mean Shead is the better player, he's not the same caliber of shooter, but it does highlight the difference between the two in at least some light.

[Jakay]

Scoring PGs like IQ don't grow on trees, and he has a great AST/TO ratio for a player supposedly that is not considered a good PG.

you don't turn the ball over if you never pass. Jason Kidd has one of the worst A/TO ratios of all time for a lead guard. Obviously a bad PG

He does pass though. Over 6 assists a game. And no, Shead doesn’t do a phenomenal job of running the offense. There is simply no debate as to who is better. lol.

LOL

Uncontextualized counting stats. Newb.

To be fair, yes you are correct. We're talking 32 minutes vs 20 minutes though, at different stages of their careers. Get a better angle.

Shead doesn’t do a phenomenal job of running the offense

LMAO though

[Los_29]

you don't turn the ball over if you never pass. Jason Kidd has one of the worst A/TO ratios of all time for a lead guard. Obviously a bad PG

He does pass though. Over 6 assists a game. And no, Shead doesn’t do a phenomenal job of running the offense. There is simply no debate as to who is better. lol.

LOL

Uncontextualized counting stats. Newb.

He’s 20th in the league in assists. You said he doesn’t pass. And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it?

You said Shead does a phenomenal job running the offense. That actually seems like something a “newb” would say. Same with thinking Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. lol.

[HumbleRen]

I think you’re both right. Our team wouldn’t be better off with Shead being our full time PG but IQ’s assists don’t indicate he’s a good playmaker. His assists are largely a result of the offensive system, not from him creating an advantage.

[Jakay]

He does pass though. Over 6 assists a game. And no, Shead doesn’t do a phenomenal job of running the offense. There is simply no debate as to who is better. lol.

LOL

Uncontextualized counting stats. Newb.

He’s 20th in the league in assists. You said he doesn’t pass. And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it?

You said Shead does a phenomenal job running the offense. That actually seems like something a “newb” would say. Same with thinking Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. lol.

^ see edited post above

Do you have any actual point to make outside of IQ has in more assists with the starting lineup in more than 1.5 times as many minutes?

Shead is playing with starters and bench, who do not score at the same rate, with more assists per minute, by also 1.5 times give or take. Also watch how the offense runs. IQ is running the game floating out at the perimeter trying to spot up?

also to keep with our theme:
lol

also also:
"And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it? "

Yes, why doesn't IQ do it at the same rate as Shead, or really even close, indeed. Great point.

[Jakay]

I think you’re both right. Our team wouldn’t be better off with Shead being our full time PG but IQ’s assists don’t indicate he’s a good playmaker. His assists are largely a result of the offensive system, not from him creating an advantage.

That's it right? They're pretty different players. At no point do I think one is vastly better because it's apples to oranges. My preference, long term, to choose Shead, is nothing short of a bet.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Last night was a great example why we can use them both. Shead helps get IQ and others going and IQ’s shooting raises the teams floor and ceiling.

[YogurtProducer]

Assists, where other are put in a position to do that scoring, is another pretty vital skill that stands the test of time. And in that sense it's no contest who wins that battle.

To me it's more of a wash. IQ cannot get assists and run an offence like Shead can. Not even close.

Luckily they can also co-exist.

IQ is 20th in the NBA in assists, and has the lowest amount of turnovers among players in the top 20 in assists.

Shead FWIW is 30th in assists, and has the lowest amount of turnovers among players in the top 30 in assists.

This board has lost the plot.

There's a measure of team style involved there, JKidd was terrible in the A/TO ratio (cetainly in the fist half of his career), but no one is calling him a bad PG. In per/36 though, Jamal is like 9.X vs IQ being 6.X in assists. That doesn't mean Shead is the better player, he's not the same caliber of shooter, but it does highlight the difference between the two in at least some light.

It also highlights playstyle differences between playing with the starters and playing with the bench.

[tsherkin]

I think this is the whole vision they had for IQ as an off the ball shooter. But it would be nice to have a pg capable of getting by his defender to touch the paint and break down the d. I think the last time we had one was tj ford

Having someone other than RJ who can get to the rim would be really nice. Whether it's a PG or a SG or a SF doesn't really matter, but we definitely need more than one guy who can pressure a D at the rim, for sure.

[Tripod]

The last month...13 games, iQ is shooting 29.3% from 3. That's just unacceptable for someone who is supposed to be our best shooter.

Hopefully he goes on a heater soon....we need those extra points in games.

[arbsn]

IQ off the Bench imo he gets hunted on D way too much

Happy for him that he made the game winner but his defense on the previous possession was atrocious - almost let lamelo ball have an open lane layup for the win

[Los_29]

LOL

Uncontextualized counting stats. Newb.

He’s 20th in the league in assists. You said he doesn’t pass. And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it?

You said Shead does a phenomenal job running the offense. That actually seems like something a “newb” would say. Same with thinking Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. lol.

^ see edited post above

Do you have any actual point to make outside of IQ has in more assists with the starting lineup in more than 1.5 times as many minutes?

Shead is playing with starters and bench, who do not score at the same rate, with more assists per minute, by also 1.5 times give or take. Also watch how the offense runs. IQ is running the game floating out at the perimeter trying to spot up?

also to keep with our theme:
lol

also also:
"And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it? "

Yes, why doesn't IQ do it at the same rate as Shead, or really even close, indeed. Great point.

I’m really not even sure what you’re talking about at this point. You mentioned IQ doesn’t pass. I responded saying he is in the top 20 in assists. That would indicate that he passes often.

I never said he was an elite playmaker but he doesn’t have to be on this team. He doesn’t turn the ball over and helps open up the floor due to his shooting ability.

Shead being a better playmaker doesn’t make up for the enormous differences elsewhere. Shead is still a bad offensive player and for anyone to want Shead to start over IQ is absolutely out of their minds.

This fanbase has never respected our point guards. Look how much hate Lowry got for most of him time here. Then Fred. Now IQ. Knicks fans absolutely loved IQ. Meanwhile some Raptors fans want Shead and his 48% TS% to start for a 23-15 team. It’s outrageous. lol.

[MEDIC]

I think you’re both right. Our team wouldn’t be better off with Shead being our full time PG but IQ’s assists don’t indicate he’s a good playmaker. His assists are largely a result of the offensive system, not from him creating an advantage.

This is it really. He doesn't create for others. He just runs the plays.....and sometimes he even misses those.

Like that pick and roll play with CMB last night. CMB had a mismatch down low on the roll, but IQ doesn't see it and bricks a contested 3. Stuff like this happens too often. Missing 2 or 3 easy buckets like that in a night can lose you the game (almost did). In the playoffs you can’t make those mistakes.

[MEDIC]

No idea why you are bringing Shead into this. Lol

You asked how does a team acquire a Jrue.Holiday type player. It happens......but you have to know what you want in a player & your scouting/ talent evaluation has to be on point. We do have assets we can move. I am not saying it can or will happen tomorrow. Maybe it takes 6 months, maybe it takes 2 years. You keep picking away.

uhhh i think I got confused on what convo i was in

But again... how are we acquiring a Jrue player?

That is such a crazy ask to make for a team lol. Just go "find" the next breakout all-nba player for cheap

It’s just completely unrealistic expectations. Jrue wasn’t even acquired as some “hidden gem”. The guy was traded AFTER he had made the all-star team in his 4th season.

That's not the point. The point is that the NOP robbed Philly. They were opportunistic & came away with a fantastic young player.

[ConSarnit]

uhhh i think I got confused on what convo i was in

But again... how are we acquiring a Jrue player?

That is such a crazy ask to make for a team lol. Just go "find" the next breakout all-nba player for cheap

It’s just completely unrealistic expectations. Jrue wasn’t even acquired as some “hidden gem”. The guy was traded AFTER he had made the all-star team in his 4th season.

That's not the point. The point is that the NOP robbed Philly. They were opportunistic & came away with a fantastic young player.

They traded a top 6 pick for him. Where do you suggest we get a top 6 pick from?

[MEDIC]

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

Alright.

Found my example of that diamond in the rough player. Someone that I have wanted on this team for a few years now. NAW.

He didn't shoot above .350 from three until he was 24 years old (5th year in the league) He didn't shoot efficiently at high volume until he was 27 years old. He definitely improved his shooting.

Also....he bounced around in the league a lot. He was kind of an afterthought. He kept grinding and working on his game, & started to gain some traction in Minny. Found a role there. Atlanta sees an opportunity to get a developing player, entering his prime years & gets him in a S&T for a second and cash. 15.5 million dollar deal x 4 years.

NAW is making 1/2 of what Quickley is making & outperforming him on both sides of the court.

Atlanta made the right choice. These are the types of opportunities you have to look for.

[ConSarnit]

He’s 20th in the league in assists. You said he doesn’t pass. And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it?

You said Shead does a phenomenal job running the offense. That actually seems like something a “newb” would say. Same with thinking Shead should replace IQ in the starting lineup. lol.

^ see edited post above

Do you have any actual point to make outside of IQ has in more assists with the starting lineup in more than 1.5 times as many minutes?

Shead is playing with starters and bench, who do not score at the same rate, with more assists per minute, by also 1.5 times give or take. Also watch how the offense runs. IQ is running the game floating out at the perimeter trying to spot up?

also to keep with our theme:
lol

also also:
"And if it’s so easy to get assists, why doesn’t everyone do it? "

Yes, why doesn't IQ do it at the same rate as Shead, or really even close, indeed. Great point.

I’m really not even sure what you’re talking about at this point. You mentioned IQ doesn’t pass. I responded saying he is in the top 20 in assists. That would indicate that he passes often.

I never said he was an elite playmaker but he doesn’t have to be on this team. He doesn’t turn the ball over and helps open up the floor due to his shooting ability.

Shead being a better playmaker doesn’t make up for the enormous differences elsewhere. Shead is still a bad offensive player and for anyone to want Shead to start over IQ is absolutely out of their minds.

This fanbase has never respected our point guards. Look how much hate Lowry got for most of him time here. Then Fred. Now IQ. Knicks fans absolutely loved IQ. Meanwhile some Raptors fans want Shead and his 48% TS% to start for a 23-15 team. It’s outrageous. lol.

While Shead is likely a better passer than IQ some of that is role/skill related.

Shead has to pass because he’s one of the worst scorers in the league. He has to pass out of the pnr because he’s averaging 0.71ppp as a scorer in those possessions and that’s terrible. If you’re a PG who’s one of the worst scorers in the league you better be passing. He can’t score efficiently from anywhere on the floor.

IQ passes less because he can actually score/finish, giving him more options.

Shead is not a starting level pg. IQ’s scoring + playmaking is worth more than Shead’s playmaking. If it was just about passing we could have just signed Ben Simmons. Your PG has to be able to score with some semblance of efficiency.

[Los_29]

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

Alright.

Found my example of that diamond in the rough player. Someone that I have wanted on this team for a few years now. NAW.

He didn't shoot above .350 from three until he was 24 years old (5th year in the league) He didn't shoot efficiently at high volume until he was 27 years old. He definitely improved his shooting.

Also....he bounced around in the league a lot. He was kind of an afterthought. He kept grinding and working on his game, & started to gain some traction in Minny. Found a role there. Atlanta sees an opportunity to get a developing player, entering his prime years & gets him in a S&T for a second and cash. 15.5 million dollar deal x 4 years.

NAW is making 1/2 of what Quickley is making & outperforming him on both sides of the court.

Atlanta made the right choice. These are the types of opportunities you have to look for.

NAW is a great example. But he’s not outperforming IQ on both sides of the court.

I do like him though. I remember reading a scouting report on him when he was with the Wolves. They made the game a bit easier on him.

Before this season, 66% of NAW’s two-pointers and 12% of his threes were self-created. That has fallen to 48% and 3% respectively, a sign of a player having a self-creation burden taken away. This has led to a career-best efficiency from inside the arc (53.8%) and a three-point shooting mark well above his career norm (37% to 33.9%).

I’d imagine IQs threes are a bit harder in difficulty but I could be wrong. IQ is also a better playmaker. NAW is a solid defensive player with good size.

That is a good example but I think we are looking for examples of players that would help and fit this team more than IQ. NAW would be cheaper but he wouldn’t make us better if he replaced IQ.

[YogurtProducer]

Several posters have mentioned Jrue Holiday types as being the ideal.

Oh, just a guy who got a max extension at one point? Is that all we need?

Like it seems obvious that yes, an all-star or all-nba PG would be better than IQ. But is that feasible?

Who is this mystery player?

How are we getting this mystery player?

How are we affording this mystery player?

Alright.

Found my example of that diamond in the rough player. Someone that I have wanted on this team for a few years now. NAW.

He didn't shoot above .350 from three until he was 24 years old (5th year in the league) He didn't shoot efficiently at high volume until he was 27 years old. He definitely improved his shooting.

Also....he bounced around in the league a lot. He was kind of an afterthought. He kept grinding and working on his game, & started to gain some traction in Minny. Found a role there. Atlanta sees an opportunity to get a developing player, entering his prime years & gets him in a S&T for a second and cash. 15.5 million dollar deal x 4 years.

NAW is making 1/2 of what Quickley is making & outperforming him on both sides of the court.

Atlanta made the right choice. These are the types of opportunities you have to look for.

So your grand example is 1 guy, who bounced around 4 teams in 7 years? Who didn't average more than 11ppg until his 7th age 27 year? FWIW - he isn't better on both ends of the floor. We are talking 16/4/6 vs 20/4/3. One is a 4th option, the other is a 2nd. And the advanced stats also still favor IQ (albeit it is close).

I'd take NAW > IQ now simply due to that contract though. But that is not a knock on IQ, rather that NAW signed a cheap deal and blew up immediately after. He probably regrets it now. But the whole point of this conversation is that acquiring these guys is hard. NAW failed on 3 different teams before he broke out.

But at the end of the day... if we had NAW instead of IQ we are not even a better team.

[james vincent]

Quickley needs a centre to set screens and create separation since he isn’t quick enough off the dribble to provide rim pressure and create his own shot; also, his defense is mediocre so he might benefit from a big in drop coverage to provide rim protection. In short, he needs a proper, healthy, available centre to open up his game and compensate for his porous defense.