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It is time to build around Bargnani!

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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#101 » by LittleOzzy » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:22 pm

TheGameWinner wrote:
LittleOzzy wrote:Bosh can't even have one bad game...


didn't you start a PG game "chris 'butterfingers' bosh" couldn't you have just said, Nuggets got lucky that Billups came in for Iverson?


He had a bad game, but that doesn't mean I want to start building around someone else.

Last nights loss was his fault in my opinion, but in no way does that mean I don't think he is the best player on the team by far.

What I meant by... "Bosh can't even have one bad game..." is that people should leave it at that. He had a bad game, be angry... but don't be totally insane by talking about building around someone else.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#102 » by ponder276 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:23 pm

It is NEVER time to build around Bargnani! He cannot create his own offense AT ALL, he is literally useless in ISO situations. Bargs is a spot up 3 shooter who is decent at pump faking then driving (only when his defender is way out of position and has to come flying in), and has a small ability to post up when defended by smaller players. He's an off the ball, role player type scorer, and would be a complete disaster as a #1 option. When Bosh isn't playing Bargs scores LESS, not more, because Bosh drawing doubles is key to his production. Add in the fact that Bargs is a horrendous rebounder and defender, who does not hustle or really have any intangibles at all, and he's quite clearly a very poor choice to build around.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#103 » by raptorsam » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:34 pm

Bargs takes bad jumpshots because he never gets any open looks or plays run for him.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#104 » by OAKLEY_2 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:36 pm

JD225. BS and other hating.
Also I'm pretty sure I wasn't even involved in the thread you posted your nonsense. Next time think twice before you a) call a poster racist and b) make such ridiculous claims about the Raps


Buddy you must have found it somewhere so not being "involved" but yet still building a signature with it is a laughable claim. Racist? Where on earth does that come from? Racist! Show me in what way manner or form I have ever claimed you to be racist. If you say narrow minded, simplistic and profoundly negative well then we have an agreement. Within the context of this post players like Bargnani and many others not from North America can most surely play the game at this level. They might even be the corner stones of their respective franchises ie. Dirk Nowitzki. That was the context of my comment that you have only half referred to. All I'm saying is if you cannot remember the context of the post where you are quoting me from don't use it because you obviously do not have the slightest clue about the point I was making. If you don't care don't quote me in the first place.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#105 » by Local_NG_Idiot » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:46 pm

Undefeated wrote:And what tools is that Bargnani hasn't developed yet? Bargnani is automatic from anywhere from the mid-range area (number one option has to find a sweet spot on the floor), does a great job of attracting doubles and passing the ball out very well by finding an open teammate when he isn't even a number option yet and he always steps up when the Raptors are in need of a basket such as his drive on Nene last night with an and-one. As I've said, until Triano starts running some set plays for Bargnani, that's when he'll give us a true indication whether or not he can become one. But with I've seen so far when Bosh stinks up the joint, Bargnani does a great job stepping up and carrying the Raptors.


Tools?

His footwork in the post is still below average and his strength in the post still allows the stronger SFs of the league to guard him there.

The lack of passing that Bosh gets hammered for here is missing just as much from Bargs.

His inconsistency from not only 1 game to the next but half to half is a major concern especially as a 1st option.

His inability to anticipate a play and get to the correct spot within the defensive schemes is his greatest weakness (although improved from years past is still below average).

Can he shoot? sure, he's always had that. Can he use his shot as a weapon to drive? Yes, he has improved that as well.

The real question that you fail to address is his ability to face criticism and the demand of performing the correct way night in and night out without it affecting his game. As a first option, his GM and his coach will not be able to sheild him from the fans and the media. How he responds to that will either make or break him and his history to date with this is subpar.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#106 » by OAKLEY_2 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:48 pm

I honestly wouldn't mind them building around DD, Weems, and Amir.


I'd add Jack and Bargnani to that but I totally agree. Go draft and go young. As said before lets try and accumulate young talent and not get fixated on one guy. It is MLSE that goes nuts on having a poster boy for marketing and hype.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#107 » by Paperclip » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:48 pm

There is NO player on this team that should be built around individually(maybe Bosh). Unless we somehow land Lebron or a talent like him where you can put pieces of crap around him and still produce an elite team. The issue here is that we need to focus on building around a core of players, around 2-3 star level talents.

Obviously our core does not mesh well as there is too many redundant skill sets. If Bosh were to leave, I could maybe see Bargs as part of a core, but we will still need to land some more serious talent through the draft with some star quality skill sets. Obviously luck will be a factor since it could take awhile and would need to happen within 3-4 years before Bargs is out of the picture because of age difference.

If Bosh were to stay, we would need to surround him with a better cast that actually compliments his skill set and obviously move pieces of our "core" . Players that could play some defence would be a good start.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#108 » by Undefeated » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:54 pm

ponder276 wrote:IHe cannot create his own offense AT ALL, he is literally useless in ISO situations. Bargs is a spot up 3 shooter who is decent at pump faking then driving (only when his defender is way out of position and has to come flying in), and has a small ability to post up when defended by smaller players.


How do you know this? Has Bargnani ever had the opportunity to receive consistent touches to create his own offense? No. And I don't think it's fair to judge Bargnani just yet. Whenever Bargnani does receive the ball to create his offense he's usually successful...

1. Bargnani is one of the best big man who can shake of his defender one on one with his handles on the fly usually finishing with a lay-up. Seems to me he can create his offense here.

2. Bargnani usually goes in the paint and flashes back out at the perimeter for a 3-PT shot or mid-range shot. This is much like a jab-step for Bargnani to create space between his man and himself. Another example of creating his offense.

I'm sure if Triano runs some screens for Bargnani on O, he'd be very successful at the mid-range game. Moreover, Bargnani just doesn't only post-up on smaller players. Anyone still saying this must be not watching the games often or living in the past. Last night, Bargnani had quite a few post-up on Nene who he had scored on quite a few times. Go back to the game against Atlanta last week, Bargnani posted Smith and Horford and they had to quadruple team him at one point.

And there's no problem with Bargnani posting up on smaller players either because he attracts the double ALL THE TIME when he posts up on a smaller player. When he's in this situation, he does a great job of finding an open teammate for a shot, all apart of having an easy offense (easy baskets).

He's an off the ball, role player type scorer, and would be a complete disaster as a #1 option. When Bosh isn't playing Bargs scores LESS, not more, because Bosh drawing doubles is key to his production. Add in the fact that Bargs is a horrendous rebounder and defender, who does not hustle or really have any intangibles at all, and he's quite clearly a very poor choice to build around.


You see, you can't just make assumptions. And you're using a small sample size to say that Bargnani scores less with Bosh sidelined. In those games, the coaching staff had rarely run any offense through Bargnani so it's fair to judge him. Run some screens? Not often.

What's funny is that when Bosh is having a poor game, Bargnani is able to step up defensively and rebound the ball very well. I'm sure that's the case that Bargnani will do once Bosh leaves.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#109 » by James_Raptors » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:08 pm

I don't like the notion of us going forward with a AB+CB front court in '10-'11 but the idea of building around Bargs scares the living crap out of me.

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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#110 » by kingr » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:13 pm

dagger wrote:
But as Undefeated says, there are also teams with multiple options - Denver, where Billups is arguably as important as Melo for different reasons, and where both have different roles. Or Dallas, where Kidd and Dirk are both very important for different reasons, and Jason Terry has a very deliberate role as well.



I feel Denver has built around Melo. I also feel Dallas has built around Dirk. They haven't just added players that fit. Adding veteran pointguards were supposed to help their franchise players excel. And it has IMO. So that's building around players.

I do agree with the notion that we don't have that specail talent to build around, and that's what we need. I feel if we really want to contend in a near future, we need to draft a player whom we can build around. Having a player like bargnani as our main guys won't get us anywhere, unless Lebron is the main guy.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#111 » by Guy Smiley » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:17 pm

I look forward to a future Raptors team built around IL MAGO. It excites me and fills me with the encouragement of a better tomorrow.

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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#112 » by J-Roc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:22 pm

I honestly believe we would have lost worse with a healthy Hedo. With Sonny and Wright on the floor, we had less talent, but more D. And if you can nullify the other teams' advantages, it's as good as scoring points for your team.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#113 » by supersub15 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:31 pm

What I would like to know is what the heck happened to him yesterday. He didn't have his shot, but he still played with poise and provided so many other intangibles.

My theory is that he cannot concentrate on more than 1 or 2 things defensively at the same time, and with the PG leak plugged by putting Weems on Billups and hiding Calderon on Afflalo, he was able to do the other things well. When the ship is leaking from 2 or 3 places (Calderon, Turk and DeRozan), he just gives up.

Obviously, it's just one game (as encouraging as it was for him), but we'll see if he can keep the same intensity tomorrow or reverts back to his lackadaisical ways.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#114 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:34 pm

supersub15 wrote:What I would like to know is what the heck happened to him yesterday. He didn't have his shot, but he still played with poise and provided so many other intangibles.

My theory is that he cannot concentrate on more than 1 or 2 things defensively at the same time, and with the PG leak plugged by putting Weems on Billups and hiding Calderon on Afflalo, he was able to do the other things well. When the ship is leaking from 2 or 3 places (Calderon, Turk and DeRozan), he just gives up.

Obviously, it's just one game (as encouraging as it was for him), but we'll see if he can keep the same intensity tomorrow or reverts back to his lackadaisical ways.



It makes sense, I think he can be overwhelmed with what they are trying to do with him defensively.

He looked much more comfortable just getting after the boards. I loved that he was screaming for the ball yesterday, too bad no one listened.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#115 » by djsunyc » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:36 pm

supersub15 wrote:What I would like to know is what the heck happened to him yesterday. He didn't have his shot, but he still played with poise and provided so many other intangibles.

My theory is that he cannot concentrate on more than 1 or 2 things defensively at the same time, and with the PG leak plugged by putting Weems on Billups and hiding Calderon on Afflalo, he was able to do the other things well. When the ship is leaking from 2 or 3 places (Calderon, Turk and DeRozan), he just gives up.

Obviously, it's just one game (as encouraging as it was for him), but we'll see if he can keep the same intensity tomorrow or reverts back to his lackadaisical ways.


not being able to concentrate on multiple things = lackadaisical?
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#116 » by The_Hater » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:36 pm

We're going to build around a 3rd offensive option who doesn't defend, rebound, pass or play hard every day.

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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#117 » by Undefeated » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:38 pm

Local_NG_Idiot wrote:His footwork in the post is still below average and his strength in the post still allows the stronger SFs of the league to guard him there.


Bargnani's footwork in the post is fine. What's the problem with it? From what I've seen, he can shake off his man with a spin and finish it with a sweeping hook. Yeah, stronger SFs still defend Bargnani, but most of the time he scores on them at will.

The lack of passing that Bosh gets hammered for here is missing just as much from Bargs.


Bargnani is a much better passer out of double teams than Bosh.

http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/2010/03/26/RGI6100326DENatTOR-1271591/index.html

4:00 - Has Bosh ever made a pass out of the ball as quickly as Bargnani here?

His inconsistency from not only 1 game to the next but half to half is a major concern especially as a 1st option.


Consistency in running plays for Bargnani would help the cause.

His inability to anticipate a play and get to the correct spot within the defensive schemes is his greatest weakness (although improved from years past is still below average).


Bargnani can be effective on defense when every of his teammates tries on defense, an example being last night where Jose didn't get killed on defense as much because he was hid by defending wing players.

The real question that you fail to address is his ability to face criticism and the demand of performing the correct way night in and night out without it affecting his game. As a first option, his GM and his coach will not be able to sheild him from the fans and the media. How he responds to that will either make or break him and his history to date with this is subpar.


Wasn't Bargnani called out for being lazy on his rebounding? Well, he did pretty well last night and proved his critics wrong.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#118 » by knickerbocker2k2 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:41 pm

supersub15 wrote:My theory is that he cannot concentrate on more than 1 or 2 things defensively at the same time, and with the PG leak plugged by putting Weems on Billups and hiding Calderon on Afflalo, he was able to do the other things well. When the ship is leaking from 2 or 3 places (Calderon, Turk and DeRozan), he just gives up.


I think it has more to do with conditioning. Yesterday I saw him several times panting and sweating like crazy. Defense usually drains most energy. Offense is fun for most players and they can get by, but defense is where most weak willed people lost it. Maybe he is just conserving his energy for the offensive end, especially now given that there is no accountability on this team. This also explains him either having great defense night or offensive night. He can't do both b/c of poor conditioning.

I think this effects other players to. Yesterday several of our players were short on breath. Weems was another player I noticed doing this but he has the excuse of being 10-20 minute kinda guy and not used to playing heavy minutes.
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#119 » by The Duke » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:58 pm

The Correct Answer would be to build around......




.... our Lottery Pick in 2011 NBA Draft
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Re: It is time to build around Bargnani! 

Post#120 » by 99 Problems » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:06 pm

Even as a joke this thread isn't all that funny... We need to get over this goofball...He's a soft, streaky 7 foot role player who doesn't deserve any type of praise until he mans up and plays consistently for an entire season... Until then he's just fools gold..

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