Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

[Ponchos]

Sigh. I did it off 2/3rds of the season, my rough estimate. My mistake.

I see you have not addressed any of the relevant points.

-BRI =/= competitive balance.

-All the games in Nov can still be made up.

-The season can still be saved in January.

Or you can cling to your 61% thing, and say you're right about something.

[TiKusDom]

Sigh. I did it off 2/3rds of the season, my rough estimate. My mistake.

I see you have not addressed any of the relevant points.

-BRI =/= competitive balance.

-All the games in Nov can still be made up.

-The season can still be saved in January.

Or you can cling to your 61% thing, and say you're right about something.

dude you are lost. im going on concrete evidence not assumptions that magically these games are going to be made up . you want to argue against BRI and competitive balance, take it up with the 16 small team owners who say otherwise, they are not moving from 50 50 and want 47 53 if cap issues and higher taxes are implemented which the players are against. Can and Will are 2 different things. The lockout wont be ending anytime soon based on what is coming out of these labour talks and the way the players are approaching the situation. Cold hard facts alone 1 month of games lost , 16 % of their income, as much money lost as they would have made with a 53 % split at the start of the season. Your math is weak I dont need to cling to jack.

[Ponchos]

Ok... You're getting lost so I'll see if we can tackle this an issue at a time.

Do you agree with the following statement:

- It is probable that with a CBA settlement at least some of the games in November will be "made up" with a condensed schedule.

If yes, how can you then say that it is a FACT that the players have lost 16% of their income?


Next issue:
- Do you understand that players get paid based off BRI, and that BRI does not equal games played? (example: losing 10 out of 82 games does not equal losing 10/82 of BRI.

[TiKusDom]

Ok... You're getting lost so I'll see if we can tackle this an issue at a time.

Do you agree with the following statement:

- It is probable that with a CBA settlement at least some of the games in November will be "made up" with a condensed schedule.

If yes, how can you then say that it is a FACT that the players have lost 16% of their income?


Next issue:
- Do you understand that players get paid based off BRI, and that BRI does not equal games played? (example: losing 10 out of 82 games does not equal losing 10/82 of BRI.

missing 10 / 82 games reduces your total revenue , are you aware that if fans arent going to games the revenue drops? wrap your mind around that.

I dont go on probable, I go with concrete facts and whats happened at hand. Oh maybe they can play 82 games in 3 months, maybe they will extend the season into all of the summer so we have nothing to worry about, sorry what might happen and reality are 2 different things.

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. BRI payout not being lower due to lost games , WOW , you cant even understand that lost games = smaller BRI . We dont really have anything to argue about here, it seems like you dont even understand how the system works.

[S.W.A.N]

Sigh. I did it off 2/3rds of the season, my rough estimate. My mistake.

I see you have not addressed any of the relevant points.

-BRI =/= competitive balance.

-All the games in Nov can still be made up.

-The season can still be saved in January.

Or you can cling to your 61% thing, and say you're right about something.

Lower BRI will have as much effect as any 'system' moves when it comes to competitive balance...

Competivive Balance is the biggest myth going. New York LA Chicago Miami are always going to have an inherent advantage over other markets.

Really well organizations like San Antontio Oklahoma Dallas are always going to have a slight advantage over poorly run teams (clippers, kings etc.)

Teams that get number one draft picks in the good years will always have an advantage over less lucky teams.

Hard Cap No Cap Flex Cap It doesn't matter.

Its all about the money and slightly adjusting the playing field to remove some of the big market advantages.. Which may or may not work out the way small market teams think it will


I just want players to sign the damn deal, don't be stupid and fall into same trap hockey players did.

[Ponchos]

missing 10 / 82 games reduces your total revenue , are you aware that if fans arent going to games the revenue drops? wrap your mind around that.

Excellent deduction!! We are getting somewhere. Now I just need you to make one logical leap. Does the NBA make revenue outside of fans attending games? (hint: rhymes with Shmeevee Contract and Shmerchandising). Sooo if they still make that money, then missing 10/82 games does not equate to a 10/82 loss of total revenues. Do you agree?

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S

It is not a fact yet. It is not a fact yet. It is not a fact yet!! You can say they have missed their paycheques, that would be a fact. However, their yearly wage is still UNDETERMINED.

[Ponchos]

Lower BRI will have as much effect as any 'system' moves when it comes to competitive balance...

In essence I agree, however for those who pine for competitive balance a mere shift in BRI % does nothing. Why? Because big market teams benefit just as much as small market teams with BRI% changes.

[TiKusDom]

Excellent deduction!! We are getting somewhere. Now I just need you to make one logical leap. Does the NBA make revenue outside of fans attending games? (hint: rhymes with Shmeevee Contract and Shmerchandising). Sooo if they still make that money, then missing 10/82 games does not equate to a 10/82 loss of total revenues. Do you agree?

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S

It is not a fact yet. It is not a fact yet. It is not a fact yet!! You can say they have missed their paycheques, that would be a fact. However, their yearly wage is still UNDETERMINED.

You shoudlnt use the word logic in any of your posts.

BRI is largely based on

Ticket Sales (regular season, exhibition and playoffs)
Television Contracts (ESPN, TNT, etc.)
Concessions
Parking
"Temporary" Stadium advertising

Yeah i'm sure advertisers are rushing to advertise in empty arenas with no fans, buying concessions and parking in empty stadiums. Give up now. Your logic is broken. No one is buying tickets when games arent being played. No one is buying advertising space or time when no games are being played. PERIOD. WOW you are lost. TV contracts are based on how many games the NBA is able to provide , and your merchandise wont be being sold when no one is going on the floor. Those two are still a small portion compared to ticket revenues and on the floor revenue generators. Your argument is stupid, yes the NBA will somehow manage to still make revenue, but its TOTAL REVENUE will be lower when games arent being played, reducing the total BRI money pool. You dont even understand simple business models like that. I cant argue with someone who has no concept of how the NBA business model works. Lost games cause the NBA BRI pool to shrink = lost money and smaller payouts for everyone. Suck it up, you lost.

[Ponchos]

Now I just feel bad for you.

[TiKusDom]

Now I just feel bad for you.

dont go into business kid, you will lose a lot of money .

[Ponchos]

I'm going to try one more time because reading your insane posts is somewhat entertaining.

BRI is largely based on

Ticket Sales (regular season, exhibition and playoffs)
Television Contracts (ESPN, TNT, etc.)
Concessions
Parking
"Temporary" Stadium advertising

Yeah i'm sure advertisers are rushing to advertise in empty arenas with no fans, buying concessions and parking in empty stadiums. Give up now. Your logic is broken. No one is buying tickets when games arent being played. No one is buying advertising space or time when no games are being played. PERIOD. WOW you are lost. TV contracts are based on how many games the NBA is able to provide , and your merchandise wont be being sold when no one is going on the floor. Those two are still a small portion compared to ticket revenues and on the floor revenue generators. Your argument is stupid, yes the NBA will somehow manage to still make revenue, but its TOTAL REVENUE will be lower when games arent being played, reducing the total BRI money pool. You dont even understand simple business models like that. I cant argue with someone who has no concept of how the NBA business model works. Lost games cause the NBA BRI pool to shrink = lost money and smaller payouts for everyone.

You're not entirely correct but you're mostly in the right ballpark here, so lets just say I agree.

However, taken that you now understand that TV contracts are a large part of the mix and particularly PLAYOFF TV contracts (ABC doesn't even start showing games until Christmas) do you still stand by your moronic statement:

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S

Please enlighten me as to how you obtained the 16% number.

[Rapsfan07]

Question: would system issues affect the idea of 'competitive balance" more than BRI%? My understanding is that regardless of what the system is, players are still entitled to whatever BRI% they inked in a deal?

If that's true, then wouldn't the only co-relation between BRI and "competitive balance" be the fact that the Player's would receive more BRI if they agree to a system that the league advertises as bring "competitive balance"? And just a personal opinion, it looks to me that small market owners don't really care how they receive money (whether via BRI or revenue sharing). As long as they get some money.

[Ponchos]

Question: would system issues affect the idea of 'competitive balance" more than BRI%? My understanding is that regardless of what the system is, players are still entitled to whatever BRI% they inked in a deal?

Yes, only system issues will affect so-called competitive balance issues. Regardless of system, the BRI% the players get is what was agreed to in the CBA.

If that's true, then wouldn't the only co-relation between BRI and "competitive balance" be the fact that the Player's would receive more BRI if they agree to a system that the league advertises as bring "competitive balance"?

Yep I supposed you could look at it that way, that the only relationship is within the bargain itself.

[S.W.A.N]

Lower BRI will have as much effect as any 'system' moves when it comes to competitive balance...

In essence I agree, however for those who pine for competitive balance a mere shift in BRI % does nothing. Why? Because big market teams benefit just as much as small market teams with BRI% changes.

Lower BRI should equate to lower cap, lower luxury tax starting point and increase the cost of maintaining current rosters. This favours small market teams.

Add in stiffer penalties for being in luxury range and this should be the tool that everyone focuses on.

[Ponchos]

Lower BRI will have as much effect as any 'system' moves when it comes to competitive balance...

In essence I agree, however for those who pine for competitive balance a mere shift in BRI % does nothing. Why? Because big market teams benefit just as much as small market teams with BRI% changes.

Lower BRI should equate to lower cap, lower luxury tax starting point and increase the cost of maintaining current rosters. This favours small market teams.

Add in stiffer penalties for being in luxury range and this should be the tool that everyone focuses on.

Stiffer penalties in luxury taxes? Yep, but that's clearly a system issue.

[TiKusDom]

You're not entirely correct but you're mostly in the right ballpark here, so lets just say I agree.

However, taken that you now understand that TV contracts are a large part of the mix and particularly PLAYOFF TV contracts (ABC doesn't even start showing games until Christmas) do you still stand by your moronic statement:

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S

Please enlighten me as to how you obtained the 16% number.

wow you are thick headed, since math is obviously not your strong suit. 24 week season , 4 weeks out of 24 = 16 % . David Stern himself stated the players are losing 4 % of their salary per week. What do play off contracts have to do with on the floor revenue? The idiocy of your logic is never ending, lost games = smaller BRI. Poncho stay away from math, very bad for you

[Ponchos]

You're not entirely correct but you're mostly in the right ballpark here, so lets just say I agree.

However, taken that you now understand that TV contracts are a large part of the mix and particularly PLAYOFF TV contracts (ABC doesn't even start showing games until Christmas) do you still stand by your moronic statement:

It is FACT they lost 16 % of their wages because 4 weeks of games have been canceled. What world are you living in? :S

Please enlighten me as to how you obtained the 16% number.

wow you are thick headed. 24 week season , 4 weeks out of 24 = 16 % . David Stern himself stated the players are losing 4 % of their salary per week. What do play off contracts have to do with on the floor sales? The idiocy of your logic is never ending.

Players are missing 4% of their salary in paycheques. They are not necessarily losing 4% of their salary though.

Ok I'm going to slow it down again, just try to answer my questions please.

Do playoff games generate revenue? Does this go into BRI?

Do the TV contracts give more income for games in November or playoff games?

Just answer those questions and we can proceed.

[TiKusDom]

Players are missing 4% of their salary in paycheques. They are not necessarily losing 4% of their salary though.

Ok I'm going to slow it down again, just try to answer my questions please.

Do playoff games generate revenue? Does this go into BRI?

Do the TV contracts give more income for games in November or playoff games?

Just answer those questions and we can proceed.

answer this question, is the NBA making money right now? How much money are they going to make in the next month. What is 50 % of 3 billion instead of 4 billion, and do you understand that 50 % of 4 billion is bigger than 53 % of 3.5 billion or whatever smaller revenue they will make from the games missed. Playoff games? What are you talking about man, we're talking about a month of lost revenue, that's money they are not going to get back, which leaves them with a smaller total pie to share. Are you that THICK?! Your questions are stupid , youre relying on playoff games to make up for a month of lost revenues which is around 100 games per week ?

[Ponchos]

answer this question, is the NBA making money right now?

Yes.

How much money are they going to make in the next month.

Not sure on exact numbers.

Playoff games? What are you talking about man, we're talking about a month of lost revenue, that's money they are not going to get back

Players get paid off of BRI%. Not games played.

Lets say for example that NBA makes 1 billion from the playoffs and 3 billion from the regular season. And for simplicity lets say that all games are equal in terms of revenue during the regular season (although this is not true).

Ok, lets say 20 weeks are cancelled and not made up but they have a full playoff schedule. By your logic this would mean 83% of wages are lost. Ok well lets do the math.

Whats the BRI for the year?

17% of 3 billion (the 4 weeks of games that are played) = 510,000,000.

100% of the 1 billion from the playoffs = 1,000,000,000.

So the BRI for the year is 1,510,000,000. With a 50/50 split that means the players would get 755,000,000.

Ok great, so how much did the players actually lose? 755mil divided by 2 billion (50% of the BRI if the whole season was played) = 37.75%, so they lost out on 62.25% of total wages.

Wait a minute?!?! 20 weeks of the season were lost, and the players lose 4% a week... They should've lost 83% but they actually only lost 62.25%!!! HOW CAN THIS BE!

I doubt you will follow this example.

[TiKusDom]

Players get paid off of BRI%. Not games played.

you managed to stay half the way. Less games played = less BRI = less money to earn, try and keep up

Lets say for example that NBA makes 1 billion from the playoffs and 3 billion from the regular season. And for simplicity lets say that all games are equal in terms of revenue during the regular season (although this is not true).

Ok, lets say 20 weeks are cancelled and not made up but they have a full playoff schedule. By your logic this would mean 83% of wages are lost. Ok well lets do the math.

Whats the BRI for the year?

17% of 3 billion (the 4 weeks of games that are played) = 510,000,000.

100% of the 1 billion from the playoffs = 1,000,000,000.

So the BRI for the year is 1,510,000,000. With a 50/50 split that means the players would get 755,000,000.

Ok great, so how much did the players actually lose? 755mil divided by 2 billion (50% of the BRI if the whole season was played) = 37.75%, so they lost out on 62.25% of total wages.

Wait a minute?!?! 20 weeks of the season were lost, and the players lose 4% a week... They should've lost 83% but they actually only lost 62.25%!!! HOW CAN THIS BE!

I doubt you will follow this example.

[/quote]

All money made during the playoffs go to the INDIVIDUAL playoff teams, you didnt even know this?! Which makes your absurdly illogical calculation WRONG.