The Tank Debate Thread

[_Choco_]

The Bucks improved by the subtractions of Jennings, Ellis, and dumb coaches.

[Tofubeque]

Just read an interesting article on the teams that are tanking. And unsurprisingly to me at least, the list is small.

Instead of taking a dive, though, just about every club has engaged in moves this offseason that are at least partly defensible as honest attempts to improve. It might not be the wisest course, but that is what they have chosen. Here is the complete list of teams that have gotten appreciably worse on paper, by their choice, compared to last season: –Celtics –Bucks –Sixers –Jazz And … that’s all. To be sure, quite a few teams that stunk to begin with just haven’t gotten any better — the Suns, Kings and Raptors chief among them. Also, to be honest, the four highlighted above weren’t all that great, either. The Celtics bowed out in first round, albeit with a fight. The Bucks were the eighth seed with a sub-.500 record in a putrid Eastern Conference. The Jazz choked away the No. 8 spot in the West in the final two weeks. The Sixers were bad, traded away All-Star point guard Jrue Holiday, and now, they’re likely to be awful. Meanwhile, several teams seemingly positioned to be part of the Wiggins sweepstakes made moves to improve their standings. The Cavaliers took a leveraged chance on Andrew Bynum. The Pistons snatched up Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings to lay a realistic claim to the Bucks’ playoff spot. The Pelicans dealt for Holiday and signed Tyreke Evans. The Bobcats signed Al Jefferson to a three-year deal, for some reason. Even the Blazers tried to improve their terrible bench production from last season by signing Mo Williams. These aren’t the moves of a league jostling for lottery position. These are moves by teams who actually think they will be able to compete for something other than also-ran status. How quaint.

Read more at: http://nesn.com/2013/08/andrew-wiggins- ... ns-so-far/

It is quaint, but it's the direction dictated by ownership in most cases. Teams like Charlotte barely belong in the league, and might not survive more sustained losing without a low-seed playoff appearance to sell some tickets.

The Raptors actually have a tremendous luxury, in that our tickets sell even when the team is bad. We can afford to take a year or two to build something substantial, and not even lose money.

[True_Shooting]

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want this team to get swept by the Heat in the playoffs.

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want his team to miss the playoffs six straight years.

Lol, you're talking as if the tank supporters want this team to tank for the next six years. The last five years are over already. You make no sense at all.

I make perfect sense. I never said anything about wanting to miss the playoffs for the next 6 years. But the fact is if we miss the playoffs next year, that will the the 6th straight year out of the playoffs. So they are rooting for the team to miss the playoffs for the 6th straight year. That's craziness.

[True_Shooting]

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want this team to get swept by the Heat in the playoffs.

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want his team to miss the playoffs six straight years.

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want his team to become a treadmill team.

No. I never said anything about us wanting to become a treadmill team. Making the playoffs in 2014 is no more likely to turn us into a "treadmill team" than missing the playoffs in 2014 and making them in 2015 instead.

[sca]

Only an idiot and a non-fan would want his team to miss the playoffs six straight years.

Lol, you're talking as if the tank supporters want this team to tank for the next six years. The last five years are over already. You make no sense at all.

I make perfect sense. I never said anything about wanting to miss the playoffs for the next 6 years. But the fact is if we miss the playoffs next year, that will the the 6th straight year out of the playoffs. So they are rooting for the team to miss the playoffs for the 6th straight year. That's craziness.

No, you keep on making no sense. It's like refusing to execute a serial killer just because some nutsack executed five innocent people before you.

And just for the record, I'm not exactly pro-tank. I like the wait and see approach. But your reasoning is too silly.

[tdotboyy]

i'd rather be partying on draft day when we draft elite talent(wiggins) rather than feeling like **** after getting swept by miami

[True_Shooting]

No, you keep on making no sense. It's like refusing to execute a serial killer just because some nutsack executed five innocent people before you.

No, it's not like that at all. You're the one making no sense. These people hoping we miss the playoffs are hoping for a 6th straight season missing the playoffs. You can twist it and mix it any way you want, but that's what they are hoping for. If you want the Raptors to miss the playoffs for a 6th straight year, you might as well just quit watching the team and find a new team to follow.

[Crazomali]

No, you keep on making no sense. It's like refusing to execute a serial killer just because some nutsack executed five innocent people before you.

No, it's not like that at all. You're the one making no sense. These people hoping we miss the playoffs are hoping for a 6th straight season missing the playoffs. You can twist it and mix it any way you want, but that's what they are hoping for. If you want the Raptors to miss the playoffs for a 6th straight year, you might as well just quit watching the team and find a new team to follow.

Getting anyone in the top 8 in the draft is a million times better then obtaining the 9th seed again

[sca]

No, you keep on making no sense. It's like refusing to execute a serial killer just because some nutsack executed five innocent people before you.

No, it's not like that at all. You're the one making no sense. These people hoping we miss the playoffs are hoping for a 6th straight season missing the playoffs. You can twist it and mix it any way you want, but that's what they are hoping for. If you want the Raptors to miss the playoffs for a 6th straight year, you might as well just quit watching the team and find a new team to follow.

And how, exactly, is that significant? Is there an unwritten rule in this league that you can't miss the play-offs for six years straight? Am I missing something? What is the importance of not missing the play-offs in the sixth year? Is that a surefire play-off roster that we have? If not, do we need to trade our young talent for more proven players just for the sake of making play-offs? If not, isn't that contradictory to what you said (missing the play-offs for six straight years is a disaster and should be avoided at all costs)?

edit: I would argue that by not wanting to tank, you're obviously wishing to hinder our chance to draft arguably the best talent to arrive at this league since LeBron and Durant who also happens to want to play for this team (a very, very rare combination), no matter how you spin it. That, to me, is more significant than not missing the play-offs for whatever straight years.

[Ice102]

If there is one year to tank, this is it.

Period.


That's why pro-tankers are pro-tankers. Wiggins. Parker. Randle. Harrison. Gordon. Smart

Raptors aren't title contenders and barely playoff contenders. No point to contend.

[DatBoiCapspace]

See page 62

See page 62

Thank you both for proving my point.

Even after 3 years of best case scenario drafting you still could end up with a rebuilding team. So enough of this you only need 2-3 years to tank if you "do it right" BS, and the only reason it doesnt work out for some teams is because they "didnt draft right" excuse. As you can see by your own examples, even with perfect drafting (which rarely ever happens) you still can be stuck in the lotto 4 years later.

Lillard + Thompson + Cousins in Sac doesnt even make the playoffs in the west.

Lillard + Thompson + Alex Len(Not sure why you write off Zeller so fast btw) in Charlotte is even worse.

Plus, if both those teams took Lillard and/or Barnes + Thompson, where would Portland and GS be right now? Stuck in the lottery. As you can see in most draft years there is only a finite amount of talent to go around, and it requires a great deal of draft luck to even have a shot at them.

Contrast that to OKC, who had to pick between Durant and Horford, Green and Noah, Westbrook and Love and Harden and Curry and you can see how much draft position + draft year (In other words huge amounts of LUCK) play a role in the tank strategy.

Also, lol at San Antonio, Indiana and Memphis not being contenders. And I clearly stated that OKC was the only contending team that has two top 5 picks of theirs (aka tanked for two top 5 picks). So we can throw that BS "if we dont tank for a top 5 pick next to Val we have no shot of becoming a contender" argument out the window.

You still haven't proved anything and your argument continues to be weak.

And again you continue to not read. The whole point of tanking is to assemble an up and coming core with upside and a core of Lillard, Thompson/Leonard, Cousins would be just that. I've continued to say that tanking isn't the be all end all, it's a significant step into becoming a contender but you continue to disregard that since you know it's the truth. Trades and FA signings would obviously be used in order to increase the talent on the team and add to the young core.

Think of it this way - when we say a top 5 pick, we mean another all-star alongside Val. Since we aren't trading Rudy Gay for Durant or signing Carmelo any time soon, getting into the draft and picking in the top 5, will give you the best chance to put a future all-star next to Val (especially with next year's draft).

And you continue to shy away from my question (probably because I know you can't answer it) - How do you expect to turn this team into a contender without tanking for at least one season?

Dude stop projecting your insecurities on to me. Ive proved everything Ive stated with numerous links(read this thread for all the proof in the world), and my argument is so strong that posters like you have to make up lies to try to discredit it.

You on the other hand havent posted any evidence to support your argument, and then backtrack when I call you out on the flaws in your logic (see above). So now you are claiming "the point of tanking isnt to build a contending team, its just to build a nice young core, of course you still need to make trades and FA signings after that" and then you have the audacity to ask me how I plan to build a contender without tanking for another top 5 pick? How about exactly as you claimed, through trades and FA? How about through drafting a player 6-30?

Again, a simple look at contending teams absolutely destroys your thesis right there. Out of the leagues top teams, only OKC was built through the drafting of multiple top 5 lotto picks, all the others were built through a combination of trades, FA and later draft picks. And the only team in the history of the league to actually win a title with their top 5 lotto draft pick has been the San Antonio Spurs, and we all know they didnt actually "tank" to get there. So for you to claim that the only way the Raptors can become a contender is if they pair another top 5 pick to go with Val is asinine. Not only is it not true, but the facts show that typically makes it harder to build a contender, not easier.

The reason for this is simple, and its the same reason why(whether you choose to admit it or not) Charlottes and Sacramentos tank jobs have proved futile in assembling a contending core, there simply arent enough elite players in the lottery to choose from. Look at your own example, you yourself claim "were not going to trade Rudy Gay for Durant", not "were not going to trade Rudy Gay for Andre Igoudala or Zach Randolph". You admit that your own goal is to get a top 5-7 superstar, not a Lillard or Klay Thompson. If we trade Rudy Gay, Amir Johnson, Demar Derozan and Kyle Lowry and replace them with Lillard and Klay Thompson in the next two drafts, do you really believe well be well on our way to contender? I'm sorry but we'd still be lucky to make the playoffs once in a decade if that is the result of our tank.

Some drafts dont have any superstars in them at all, others only have one and half the time they are bonafide #1 picks, so you cant rely on drafting them at all even if you finish with the worst record in the league. That is why dumping talent for below market value is more often then not an absolute terrible decision. It relies way too much on luck and ping pong balls and thats no way to run a billion dollar business. Most teams, such as OKC and CHA dont tank because its the best way to build a contender, they do it because its the cheapest and their owners are looking to cut costs.

I'm really getting tired of repeating myself and disproving the same terrible arguments over and over. You and all the other pro-tankers in here havent posted a single stat to support your argument that its better to dump our talent for whatever we can get this summer. Le me be clear, there is literally no statistic or historical precedent which shows that doing so would increase our odds of contending. If you want to talk about trading Gay and Lowry because you dont think they will resign and their value will drop during the season, or if you want to talk about trading Derozan because he isnt a good fit for this team, or trading Amir because his ankles wont hold up, or if you want to talk about resting veterans and purposely losing games to end the year, then I'm all ears. But if you want to talk about dumping our players for crap, then the only argument worth listening to is one that says we are currently too good to finish in the bottom ten, and there are 8 all-stars and 5 superstars in the top 10 picks next year. Making generallized arguments about how "tanking always works and the only reason it doesnt work is due to bad management" is complete and utter BS that I have just disproven through multiple facts and examples, and you have supported with nothing but bull claims or outright lies. So give it up already, dumping players to suck does not increase your odds of contending. Accept that and move on.

[Dr Positivity]

I generally agree DatBoiCapspace but I will say this, the reason so few contenders have been built by contending, may not be because tanking is flawed. Put it this way, the teams that tank are the bad franchises - CHA, SAC, WAS, us, etc. It's probably that whatever strategy these teams took, they were going to fail. The fact that we never get to see SAS, HOU, UTA, IND, etc. tank, barely picking top 10 - means that it's hard to justify saying tanking doesn't work, because all the competent teams in the league aren't doing it and that skews the results. You're more likely to attract women as a male model with poor smelling cologne and thrift store clothes, than as an ugly guy wearing beautiful cologne and top grade fashion. The quality of the decision maker is far more likely to matter than whether a team tanks or not

With that said there's an argument to be made that if all the smart teams in the league aren't tanking, best move may just be to follow their lead and assume they're doing it for a reason. It's not a great sign if one arguing for Charlotte and Sacramento's chosen strategy and not Houston, San Antonio and Utah's

[SkywalkerAC]

I'm still looking at our starting lineup and seeing a good team. You add a competent bench rotation (I think Masai has given Casey a significant upgrade over last season) and you get some breaks and you've got a team that should be in the thick of it. What I'm trying to say is that we really don't know what we have so I'm thankful that Ujiri is giving them a shot. There are a lot of question marks but such x-factors aren't always going to break the wrong way for us.

We know, with a reasonable amount of certainty, that Jonas will take a sizable step towards being an all-star calibre centre. There's little reason to think, with the way he looks this summer, that he will be a late bloomer.

You know the rest of the variables. They aren't all as sure a bet as Jonas up there but they're not exactly what I'd call long shots. These guys like playing together, they've got contracts to play for or up to, and they all have room to increase their efficiencies as they move into their prime years.

Of course, if it all goes horribly wrong and the NBA gods don't smile on them, by all means blow it to smithereens and sit everyone, but if things break in our favour for once, I'll be happy Ujiri let us take a peak.

[ramesses]

In European soccer and basketball, the bottom two teams in most leagues are actually relegated to a lower division the following season, thereby ensuring intense competition through the season's end. I realize that system wouldn't work in the NBA, but what if the league actually penalized teams for being horrible instead of rewarded them? What if the worst two teams in the league actually had LESS of a chance to win the lottery than the teams ahead of them in the standings?

What if a club that battled all season long to make the playoffs but barely came up short actually had better than a 0.5 percent chance of winning the lottery? If the lottery playing field was more closely leveled, would teams be less likely to embark on losing strategies? Would the competition actually get better at the bottom and middle of the league?

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/08/12/morn ... _twitter_L

[Dr Positivity]

We know, with a reasonable amount of certainty, that Jonas will take a sizable step towards being an all-star calibre centre.

Not really. There's really two ways that this statement could end up false. One is that he never has the talent to be an all-star caliber/near it and thus for obvious reasons, doesn't play that way next year. Second is that even if he did have that upside, it's perfectly within reason for a player to flatline from year 1 to year 2 before breaking out later. It's even common for players to decline in their 2nd year. So no a rookie that had average production last season and below average production until statpadding for 5 weeks of games with meaningless games, is not a guarantee to produce like a star next season or even an above average player.

[mdot]

I'm still looking at our starting lineup and seeing a good team. You add a competent bench rotation (I think Masai has given Casey a significant upgrade over last season) and you get some breaks and you've got a team that should be in the thick of it. What I'm trying to say is that we really don't know what we have so I'm thankful that Ujiri is giving them a shot. There are a lot of question marks but such x-factors aren't always going to break the wrong way for us.

We know, with a reasonable amount of certainty, that Jonas will take a sizable step towards being an all-star calibre centre. There's little reason to think, with the way he looks this summer, that he will be a late bloomer.

You know the rest of the variables. They aren't all as sure a bet as Jonas up there but they're not exactly what I'd call long shots. These guys like playing together, they've got contracts to play for or up to, and they all have room to increase their efficiencies as they move into their prime years.

Of course, if it all goes horribly wrong and the NBA gods don't smile on them, by all means blow it to smithereens and sit everyone, but if things break in our favour for once, I'll be happy Ujiri let us take a peak.

I commend you for being one of the rationale posters on this forum, but at the same time watch out for the omgz but were not going to win anything and tanking is still the way to go, cause everyone is guaranteed to be a franchise superstar in this draft!!

[Walid]

Every year Raptors upset and anger themselves with each loss and then those same fans turn out to be pro-tankers. How can you support tanking and feel disappointed with losses during the season? Read the game threads, they all end in outrage.

[Tofubeque]

Every year Raptors upset and anger themselves with each loss and then those same fans turn out to be pro-tankers. How can you support tanking and feel disappointed with losses during the season? Read the game threads, they all end in outrage.

When your team is capped out and pretty much at its ceiling and with no draftpick, and you're still losing more games than you win, I'd imagine fans would be outraged.

[jvuc]

What "Rebuild" Method should the Raptor's employ? [what best describes the proper path forward for the raptors).

Long term focus: The goal is the long term success of the franchise by improving the team through opportunistic trades, drafting and UFAs. This course may lead to tanking, or an accelerated rebuild depending on what return is available to the raptors from other teams in the trade market. This path requires some patience in waiting for the "right" opportunity to arise and something better then Gay for Stuckey + Villa.

Tank Focus: Screw patience, let's trash the team right away, give away players (Gay for Stuckey + Villa) and do whatever it takes to maximize the value of the Raptors 2014 draft pick. Keep JV of course.

Win Now Focus : Rehire BC and let's trade away our young players and picks so we can maximize our chances of winning now

Fantasy Instant Rebuild: Masai needs to somehow "magically" forces teams to send unprotected draft picks and their best young players for DD, Lowry and Gay so we can draft Wiggin.

Who Cares Focus: This franchise in a big market dominated league and will never amount to more then treadmill team and so I prefer to more generally complain.

[dTox]

I don't necessarily agree that tank focus means Gay for Stuckey + Villa, you basically picked the absolute worst scenario and have it representing one of the options. But yes I want the tank focus, there should be no reason to "wait and see" with this current squad as the writing is obviously on the wall with a horrendous first half schedule + an attrocious coach leading the way, tearing this baby down right before the season starts will give equal competitive chance against the likes of Charlotte, Milwaukee et all.