TWO: Tank World Order

[roundhead0]

What I'm arguing is that Bosh is a superstar.

Bosh plays beside LBJ and Pippen played beside God.

Ok, let me ask this differently: Where in the NBA do you think Bosh ranks? Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

How many "Superstars" do you think the NBA actually has?

It could be that you have a much looser definition of "superstar" than the rest of us. Or it could be that you vastly overestimate Bosh. That is why we ask.

I'd say top 25. He'd be a number 1 guy on plenty teams in the NBA.

Top 25. So would you say it's fair to call him about the 20th best player in the league?

Given that some of the top players are stacked on a fewer number of teams, that would make Bosh the best player on a little more than half the league. Sounds about right to me.

Do you really think that there are at least 20 "superstars" in the NBA? I'd say that's a very, very loose definition. Are you including players who are still popular but well past their primes? Because when we talk about superstars we're generally talking about what they can do on the floor, and not just popularity.

Perhaps instead we should use the term franchise player, since "star" seems to also indicate popularity, and not necessarily performance.

[Kabatnaz]

Ok, let me ask this differently: Where in the NBA do you think Bosh ranks? Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

How many "Superstars" do you think the NBA actually has?

It could be that you have a much looser definition of "superstar" than the rest of us. Or it could be that you vastly overestimate Bosh. That is why we ask.

I'd say top 25. He'd be a number 1 guy on plenty teams in the NBA.

Top 25. So would you say it's fair to call him about the 20th best player in the league?

Given that some of the top players are stacked on a fewer number of teams, that would make Bosh the best player on a little more than half the league. Sounds about right to me.

Do you really think that there are at least 20 "superstars" in the NBA? I'd say that's a very, very loose definition. Are you including players who are still popular but well past their primes? Because when we talk about superstars we're generally talking about what they can do on the floor, and not just popularity.

Perhaps instead we should use the term franchise player, since "star" seems to also indicate popularity, and not necessarily performance.

I say superstar in terms of impact and playing ability; not popularity. I don't se franchise player because that class is even narrower; like top 10. You don't trade franchise players and do whatever it takes to retain them.

[BLOCK905]

Without bosh Miami probably never won a ring and that team has WADE+LBJ, that's enough for me to call him a superstar.

Do you know how hard it is to be THE ONE big on a serious playoff team? lol..

[Kabatnaz]

What I am saying is that you can build through assets and the only way to increase the value of current assets is to prove that they know how to win.

This is such nonsense man! C'mon you really think guys like Lowry and DD are going to get THAT much more value for making the playoffs with half the East being piss ass poor?

There is no guarantee that anyone we draft is going to have a Lebron-type impact on this team. Lowry and Derozan only have value if this team is winning.

No, Lowry and DeMar determine their value by how well they play (stats don't lie) and also by how much other teams are desperate to add players at those positions.

Nobodies saying anything is guaranteed, it's just better route to take by a mile as it opens up more options as well considering picks are likely to have much more value then the above players mentioned.

When Vince Carter demanded a trade, he was playing like crap and Babcock got NOTHING for him. When Demar and Lowry play well, this team wins and as GM on another team looking to upgrade at those positions; I don't make deals for offensive guys on losing teams.

[TheTorontoGM]

The strategy I am suggesting is to go out and win basketball games. That should be every teams strategy.

What's the point of drafting superstars if the supporting cast doesn't know how to win?

The strategy should be to win NBA championships and you do that by getting superstars on your team man.
What we're watching now is a team full of players that likely wont be around say for a couple if we ever take the next step because they aren't even close to being good enough.

And all these champs the last 7 years did so by signing talent; not drafting it.

Look at the history of all the teams that are synonymous with tanking. Look at their reputations.

The perpetual tank does nothing for this franchise and there isn't a single player in this draft that is going to turn this team into a 60+ win franchise; especially if we trade a high value player.

Then what? Tank some more. What if our pick this year is a bust? Keep tanking?

Tanking doesn't work.

Nobody will sign in Toronto unless they are Canadian, all out of options or we grossly overpay.
The franchise is a joke and as someone who has been to many other NBA cities - especially the warm ones - Toronto is not that attractive of a destination - even if it did not have such a poorly run team.

[Fairview4Life]

Without bosh Miami probably never won a ring and that team has WADE+LBJ, that's enough for me to call him a superstar.

Do you know how hard it is to be THE ONE big on a serious playoff team? lol..

It depends on what the Heat did with that 14 or whatever million. Amir and Lowry fit within that amount, for example. Would having both of those guys supporting Lebron and Wade instead of just Bosh been enough to win?

[SkywalkerAC]

Without bosh Miami probably never won a ring and that team has WADE+LBJ, that's enough for me to call him a superstar.

Do you know how hard it is to be THE ONE big on a serious playoff team? lol..

It spends on what the Heat did with that 14 or whatever million.Amir and Lowry fit within that amount, for example. Would having both of those guys supporting Lebron and Wade instead of just Bosh been enough to win?

Yup. Boozer though? Maybe not.

[Badonkadonk]

Nobody will sign in Toronto unless they are Canadian, all out of options or we grossly overpay. The franchise is a joke and as someone who has been to many other NBA cities - especially the warm ones - Toronto is not that attractive of a destination - even if it did not have such a poorly run team.

This is hot garbage and ignorant.

People said the same thing about MLB players for years before the Jays got good and attracted stars in their primes to take Championship runs in '92 and '93.

Players care about winning. Period.

Players avoided the Clips and Heat for decades because they sucked.

Players would give their left nut to play in San Antonio.

If Masai builds a consistent winner, it's a level playing field AT LEAST.

[beanbag]

Nobody will sign in Toronto unless they are Canadian, all out of options or we grossly overpay.
The franchise is a joke and as someone who has been to many other NBA cities - especially the warm ones - Toronto is not that attractive of a destination - even if it did not have such a poorly run team.

Is that why Vince Carter signed here long term in his prime? I didn't get the memo where he was Canadian

[TheTorontoGM]

Nobody will sign in Toronto unless they are Canadian, all out of options or we grossly overpay. The franchise is a joke and as someone who has been to many other NBA cities - especially the warm ones - Toronto is not that attractive of a destination - even if it did not have such a poorly run team.

This is hot garbage and ignorant.

People said the same thing about MLB players for years before the Jays got good and attracted stars in their primes to take Championship runs in '92 and '93.

Players care about winning. Period.

Players avoided the Clips and Heat for decades because they sucked.

Players would give their left nut to play in San Antonio.

If Masai builds a consistent winner, it's a level playing field AT LEAST.

Why don't you provide us with the list of all the great free agent players that signed here in the history of the team? Are you going to give us the tired arguement how Toronto is this world class city? Miami, LA, San Fran, Phoenix, Dallas, Orlando and all are way more desirable than Toronto as a destination. Then all the northern cities like NY, Boston, Chicago are far more appealing to American players.
Face the reality the methodology of building a contender in Toronto is far different than it is in most other cities. Those of you who are so naive and think that winning 40 games in this horrible conference and maybe squeaking in to the playoffs only to get pounded in the first round - will attract free agents to our "winning" culture are sadly mistaken. The team never has been appealing to American players even in the few years it actually had some success(Damon leaving, Tmac leaving, AD hating our TV and Doritos, Vince never really being comfortable here, Bosh leaving etc...etc...ect...) Hell even your new hero John Salmons rejected the Raptors originally.

[TheTorontoGM]

PS..I forgot to add San Antonio is also another beautiful warm weather city with a history of competance and success - so yes players would kill to play there as opposed to Toronto.

[Kabatnaz]

PS..I forgot to add San Antonio is also another beautiful warm weather city with a history of competance and success - so yes players would kill to play there as opposed to Toronto.

LA Clips are warm weather and sucked for 20 years. They start winning and sign CP3.

Got any more awesome examples of how winning isn't the biggest selling point in attracting talent?

[Kabatnaz]

Nobody will sign in Toronto unless they are Canadian, all out of options or we grossly overpay. The franchise is a joke and as someone who has been to many other NBA cities - especially the warm ones - Toronto is not that attractive of a destination - even if it did not have such a poorly run team.

This is hot garbage and ignorant.

People said the same thing about MLB players for years before the Jays got good and attracted stars in their primes to take Championship runs in '92 and '93.

Players care about winning. Period.

Players avoided the Clips and Heat for decades because they sucked.

Players would give their left nut to play in San Antonio.

If Masai builds a consistent winner, it's a level playing field AT LEAST.

Why don't you provide us with the list of all the great free agent players that signed here in the history of the team? Are you going to give us the tired arguement how Toronto is this world class city? Miami, LA, San Fran, Phoenix, Dallas, Orlando and all are way more desirable than Toronto as a destination. Then all the northern cities like NY, Boston, Chicago are far more appealing to American players.
Face the reality the methodology of building a contender in Toronto is far different than it is in most other cities. Those of you who are so naive and think that winning 40 games in this horrible conference and maybe squeaking in to the playoffs only to get pounded in the first round - will attract free agents to our "winning" culture are sadly mistaken. The team never has been appealing to American players even in the few years it actually had some success(Damon leaving, Tmac leaving, AD hating our TV and Doritos, Vince never really being comfortable here, Bosh leaving etc...etc...ect...) Hell even your new hero John Salmons rejected the Raptors originally.

NY, Chicago and Boston have histories of winning.

Milwaukee and Minnesota don't.

TMac left because he didn't want to play in Vince's shadow.
Damon left because this team was awful.
Vince left because this team was awful
Davis was the only guy who was ignorant about Canada and left because this team was awful.

Winning basketball games and getting into the playoffs gives our guys the experience which is equally important.

Also, if weather and culture is a determining factor for free agents in coming to Canada to play; then why bother with a team here period? One guy in a draft isn't going win us a championship, we will still have to sign free agents and convince them to come play in this world class city.

[BLOCK905]

PS..I forgot to add San Antonio is also another beautiful warm weather city with a history of competance and success - so yes players would kill to play there as opposed to Toronto.

LA Clips are warm weather and sucked for 20 years. They start winning and sign CP3.

Got any more awesome examples of how winning isn't the biggest selling point in attracting talent?

Do you know what Hollywood is brotha?

We ain't hollywood.

Also, CP3 resigned because they drafted this dude BLAKE GRIFFEN VIA TANKING. WHO WILL RESIGN HERE WITH NO STAR YOUNG PROSPECT??? DURPADURPA.

[Kabatnaz]

PS..I forgot to add San Antonio is also another beautiful warm weather city with a history of competance and success - so yes players would kill to play there as opposed to Toronto.

LA Clips are warm weather and sucked for 20 years. They start winning and sign CP3.

Got any more awesome examples of how winning isn't the biggest selling point in attracting talent?

Do you know what Hollywood is brotha?

We ain't hollywood.

The record of the Clippers over the last 30 years shows that your argument is weak, if not flat-out outrageous.

It took them 30 years to stumble on BG; what about he other 29 years of tanking?

[BLOCK905]

LA Clips are warm weather and sucked for 20 years. They start winning and sign CP3.

Got any more awesome examples of how winning isn't the biggest selling point in attracting talent?

Do you know what Hollywood is brotha?

We ain't hollywood.

The record of the Clippers over the last 30 years shows that your argument is weak, if not flat-out outrageous.

It took them 30 years to stumble on BG; what about he other 29 years of tanking?

They had more all-stars pass through there then we ever will have.

They also had the worst - most racist owner in sports for most of that time.. so yeah..

And its not like we have to deal with the Toronto Kings who won 5 championships in the past 15 years taking all our possible players away cause they play in the same damn building.

[Kabatnaz]

Do you know what Hollywood is brotha?

We ain't hollywood.

The record of the Clippers over the last 30 years shows that your argument is weak, if not flat-out outrageous.

It took them 30 years to stumble on BG; what about he other 29 years of tanking?

They had more all-stars pass through there then we ever will have.

They also had the worst - most racist owner in sports for most of that time.. so yeah..

And its not like we have to deal with the Toronto Kings who won 5 championships in the past 15 years taking all our possible players away cause they play in the same damn building.

Excuses are the bricks that built the house of failure.

[BLOCK905]

The record of the Clippers over the last 30 years shows that your argument is weak, if not flat-out outrageous.

It took them 30 years to stumble on BG; what about he other 29 years of tanking?

They had more all-stars pass through there then we ever will have.

They also had the worst - most racist owner in sports for most of that time.. so yeah..

And its not like we have to deal with the Toronto Kings who won 5 championships in the past 15 years taking all our possible players away cause they play in the same damn building.

Excuses are the bricks that built the house of failure.

Id rather have an excuse to give people when I live in a house of failure then just say, well I thought this would be a contender but we ended up 9th!

[Kabatnaz]

They had more all-stars pass through there then we ever will have.

They also had the worst - most racist owner in sports for most of that time.. so yeah..

And its not like we have to deal with the Toronto Kings who won 5 championships in the past 15 years taking all our possible players away cause they play in the same damn building.

Excuses are the bricks that built the house of failure.

Id rather have an excuse to give people when I live in a house of failure then just say, well I thought this would be a contender but we ended up 9th!

As it stands right now we are in 4th place.

You play to win the game.

[Danchan]

NY, Chicago and Boston have histories of winning.

Milwaukee and Minnesota don't.

TMac left because he didn't want to play in Vince's shadow.
Damon left because this team was awful.
Vince left because this team was awful
Davis was the only guy who was ignorant about Canada and left because this team was awful.

Winning basketball games and getting into the playoffs gives our guys the experience which is equally important.

Also, if weather and culture is a determining factor for free agents in coming to Canada to play; then why bother with a team here period? One guy in a draft isn't going win us a championship, we will still have to sign free agents and convince them to come play in this world class city.

Excuses are the bricks that built the house of failure.

The irony.

Have we ever signed a star outright? Nope. The only moderate success we had was when we had Vince or bosh on the team. Put the 2 together you will realize why we need a high draft pick for even a chance to get out of medicocrity