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Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0

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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1001 » by TheFutureMM » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:14 pm

mojo13 wrote:
TheFutureMM wrote:
aminiaturebuddha wrote:Let's take a moment away from the World Cup talk to recognize some more excellent performances by the young Canadians in the NCAA.

Iowa State won the Big-12 tournament yesterday, and Marial Shayok and Lindell Wigginton were both named to the All-tournament team, and Shayok won the Most Outstanding Player award. After the game, in and interview Wigginton said, "Shout out to all the Canadians. We just keep putting people on the map."

Also, Barrett and Kabengele both played well in the ACC tournament final, which Duke won yesterday. Canadians playing important roles in a lot of big games in the NCAA. Great to see!


100% - I can't think of another season in the last 20 years where there have been so many Canadians playing such influential roles on NCAA best teams. At the rate were going, we are likely going to have at least 50 players in the NCAA going forward at all times leading to an increased depth in our program.

However, as HairCanada has said a couple times, the well of Top 100 players appears to be running pretty dry over the next 2-3 years. Hopefully we have another couple Olynyks, Birchs, or Ejims come out of nowhere and surprise us.



Well, we have Brandon Clarke and Mfiondu Kabengele come out of seemingly nowhere this season to become first round talents, so the trend continues. Just when we thought the pipeline of bigs had dried up too.


Completely agreed! I actually meant Clarke instead Birch when I typed that out... Birch was actually ranked very highly coming into the NCAA.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1002 » by Double Bubble » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:47 pm

Kudos on this tread, super interesting discussion

No mention on the legendary Anthony Bennett? I know he completely sucks but is something else going on that takes him out of the discussion altogether? He has been involved for the last several years regardless of his all time scrub designation
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1003 » by mojo13 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:20 pm

Yeah - Bennett could be in the mix but he is pretty far down the depth chart at this point. And yes he has been involved as recently as the WC Qualfiers (early on).

Ahead of Bennett you probably have the following bigs:
Olynyk
TT
Powell
Birch
Ejim
Lyles
Boucher
Wiltjer

Then you get into Joel Anthony, Andrew Nicholson (who is actually better than guys like Wiltjer or Boucher, but they played more recently) and maybe then Bennett. Depends on the role you need. He’s probably better than Anthony but very different roles. So Bennett could squeeze in there if we had many that couldn’t play. He had another pretty good year in the G and isn’t horrible.
You can even throw in Brandon Clarke or Kabengele to the question but neither are part of Basketball Canada yet.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1004 » by TrueNorth31 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:22 pm

aminiaturebuddha wrote:Let's take a moment away from the World Cup talk to recognize some more excellent performances by the young Canadians in the NCAA.

Iowa State won the Big-12 tournament yesterday, and Marial Shayok and Lindell Wigginton were both named to the All-tournament team, and Shayok won the Most Outstanding Player award. After the game, in and interview Wigginton said, "Shout out to all the Canadians. We just keep putting people on the map."

Also, Barrett and Kabengele both played well in the ACC tournament final, which Duke won yesterday. Canadians playing important roles in a lot of big games in the NCAA. Great to see!


I've become a big Kabangele fan over the past few weeks. Frankly I see him as a solid NBA player. I think because of his back story many draft gurus are sleeping on his potential. He's a late bloomer - a kid who had one of these late growth spurts and wasn't an AAU sensation and had only 1 low D1 offer out of high school. Another drawback for him is the way Florida State utilizes it's talent. They are the sort of anti-Duke , playing 10 guys in a regular rotation and never featuring Kabengele who's their best prospect ( he doesn't even start).

I see a guy who can post up, pass out of the double , rebound , block shots ( his mother is Mutombo's younger sister) and shoot the 3. He moves his feet and has some solid girth and length. As well he's an All ACC Academic student and said to be a solid kid. I'm sort of amazed he's not getting more love.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1005 » by mojo13 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Welcome aboard the Kabengele Stan Train - there are more than a few of us here. He is clearly a first round talent in my book, a lottery if he stays to 2020.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1006 » by Mattd97 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:57 pm

TheFutureMM wrote:
aminiaturebuddha wrote:Let's take a moment away from the World Cup talk to recognize some more excellent performances by the young Canadians in the NCAA.

Iowa State won the Big-12 tournament yesterday, and Marial Shayok and Lindell Wigginton were both named to the All-tournament team, and Shayok won the Most Outstanding Player award. After the game, in and interview Wigginton said, "Shout out to all the Canadians. We just keep putting people on the map."

Also, Barrett and Kabengele both played well in the ACC tournament final, which Duke won yesterday. Canadians playing important roles in a lot of big games in the NCAA. Great to see!


100% - I can't think of another season in the last 20 years where there have been so many Canadians playing such influential roles on NCAA best teams. At the rate were going, we are likely going to have at least 50 players in the NCAA going forward at all times leading to an increased depth in our program.

However, as HairCanada has said a couple times, the well of Top 100 players appears to be running pretty dry over the next 2-3 years. Hopefully we have another couple Olynyks, Birchs, or Ejims come out of nowhere and surprise us.


Everything is right on principle, but birch was a top 10 high school recruit and at times higher than that. Pitt was just a disaster for him
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1007 » by frumble » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:38 pm

NBAdraft.net with new mock drafts:

https://www.nbadraft.net/2020mock_draft

I know its not as good as many other mock drafts, but its free and goes two rounds for 19 and 20.

In any case, FWIW, he has:
Barrrett 3
NAW 13
Clarke 32

Everyone else he has in 2020 (at tail end of first round or in second round).
Brazdeikis 29
Shi-ttu 31
Wigginton 32
Dort 39
Kabengele 41
Brissett 51

Anyone seeing Lawson or Alexander on any mocks?
Anyone else with a realistic shot of being drafted over the next couple of seasons? (McEwen in 2020?)
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1008 » by frumble » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:42 pm

Fivethirtyeight on the Brandon Clarke bandwagon:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/your-guide-to-the-2019-ncaa-mens-tournament/

Player to watch: Brandon Clarke, Gonzaga

The linchpin of the Zags isn’t the consensus lottery pick, nor the two veteran guards who have together started 87 percent of Gonzaga’s games over the past two seasons. It’s Brandon Clarke, a transfer from San Jose State who is in his first active season with the team. He’s perhaps the most underappreciated player in the country.

On a team that typically features a 7-footer protecting the rim, it’s Clarke, at 6-foot-8, who is tasked with protecting the paint this season. Clarke has responded by setting a single-season blocks record and posting the highest block rate of any team under Few.

“If I feel like if I can get a good, quick jump first, I’ll pretty much jump with anybody,” Clarke told me. “I mean, I’ve seen Zion (Williamson) coming down through the lane before on TV, and if I can’t jump at the right time, I probably wouldn’t jump with him, but … I don’t really see myself not jumping with anybody.”
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1009 » by mojo13 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:31 pm

Well...I think I need some of you to talk me off the ledge with RJ Barrett. After seeing another couple games this weekend, he is really causing a pit in my stomach.

Maybe its my personality type that he especially grates on, but I hate the ongoing selfish, low IQ bball he is playing.
He is a poor defender, has a poor jumper/shooting touch, he is very limited athletically and has a weak isolation game (when have we seen him beat anyone off the dribble?).

Zion is so unbelievably good, more dominant than maybe any college player in history, yet remains the #2 option at Duke and Barrett fails to get him the ball over and over - passing Zion up for contested low efficiency shots. RJ learned absolutely nothing from the games Zion was hurt. Right back to bad IQ plays and ill advised shots. He forces crappy shots over and over...when Zion is right there!

I fear that this will never change and he is going to be a be a selfish high volume chucker in the NBA. He sure won't be the best player on his NBA team (or Team Canada). But do any of you think he will change his game from what we have seen at Duke? He is not accepting a secondary role with a generational talent like Zion on his team....so why would he do it with anyone else?

People are picking up on this as he slowly falls in the Mock Drafts. I will be surprised at this point if he goes top 3. Zion
Ja Morant and Culver are all seem better prospects to me.

Is Barrett just another false Canadian Idol? I fear he could do way more harm than good if he is part of the the WC team this summer. And unless his game changes drastically in the pros, he could be a handicap to Team Canada as long as Rowan is the GM (Canadian bball nepotism runs thick). There were already loads of rumors from the youth teams that other top prospects did not want to play with Barrett due to his selfish habits (I believe those rumors now) - will this continue on the Senior team? Close to 80% of our top prospects didn't show for the u19 WC. Winning the u19 Golds could be a curse in disguise because it papers over his flaws and reinforces his bad habits. Duke winning the national championship would just cement his supposed "greatness" - because you can't argue with winning. A load of losing will need to happen to tarnish his rep in Canada - we can't afford that at the SMNT level as the chances are so few and far between.

Sorry for the rant but RJ is the archetype that really bothers me - along with the hype that goes with him. Does the rest of Canada just look at the boxscore and see how many points he scored and look at nothing else? Am I way out on a limb here?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1010 » by MEDIC » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:01 pm

mojo13 wrote:He is not accepting a secondary role with a generational talent like Zion on his team....so why would he do it with anyone else?


I'm sure RJ doesn't see it this way. Good for him. He shouldn't.

RJ has been hyped up as the #1 pick for years. He's not going to suddenly take a back seat to any player. If RJ was on any other team, nobody would fault him for taking the bulk of the shots.

I like it. I'd rather a player be cocky & aggressive like RJ than passive like Wiggins. One big problem for these kids is 1 and done. They have 1 season to make a name for themselves. You look at guys like Stackhouse & Pierce back in their college years. There was no way their coach or teammates were going to let them take that many shots in their freshman year. They had to earn it. Now days we have kids with limited basketball experience leading their teams. It just mangifies their poor decision making.

RJ is young & has performed well during international play. Until he shows he's a liability, I'm not going to label him one.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1011 » by mojo13 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:40 pm

MEDIC wrote:
mojo13 wrote:He is not accepting a secondary role with a generational talent like Zion on his team....so why would he do it with anyone else?


I'm sure RJ doesn't see it this way. Good for him. He shouldn't.

RJ has been hyped up as the #1 pick for years. He's not going to suddenly take a back seat to any player. If RJ was on any other team, nobody would fault him for taking the bulk of the shots.

I like it. I'd rather a player be cocky & aggressive like RJ than passive like Wiggins. One big problem for these kids is 1 and done. They have 1 season to make a name for themselves. You look at guys like Stackhouse & Pierce back in their college years. There was no way their coach or teammates were going to let them take that many shots in their freshman year. They had to earn it. Now days we have kids with limited basketball experience leading their teams. It just mangifies their poor decision making.

RJ is young & has performed well during international play. Until he shows he's a liability, I'm not going to label him one.


Hopefully I am overreacting...but he scares the crap out of me. Loads of red flags. But as you say he is very young and in the middle of a very intense spotlight....his flaws could be very amplified.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1012 » by Hair Canada » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:40 pm

Touchy issue mojo, thanks for bringing it up. I can't say I don't have my issues with RJ and I certainly share some of your worries. You mentioned the defense and that's certainly a concern, not so much the ability (he can defend decently when trying) but more the wavering effort level. I do think at least part of it is realizing that he needs to play 40 minutes a game and avoiding foul trouble, but in any case, it's been disappointing. Going into walls is also an issue and one that was there all along. I wrote about him a year ago and mentioned this quite a big. I actually think he's gotten better in avoiding really bad shots during the college year though, which gives me hope he can continue to improve. Still, right now it doesn't look great. And of course, the outside shooting also doesn't look great (I think if he ever gets to 35% or above it's going to open up the game quite a bit for him)

A couple of things to consider though which might paint a bit of a brighter picture:

1. He's only 18. Far from a done product in all respects: body (unlike Zion), experience, and skill. I don't know how the final product is going to look like, but I do know that he works very hard and is someone who will not leave a stone unturned in an effort to improve his body and skills.

2. Like MEDIC, I think the assertiveness has two sides to it. The one is what you describe above -- being over aggressive, chucking shots, not giving up the ball in time, etc. The other is that I know he really wants it and will not become a Wiggins or a Reddish for that matter. And I'll take an RJ over a Reddish or a Wiggins any day.

3. I do think part of the reason he looks bad sometimes has to do with Duke, which is actually not the best team for him. Their spacing is quite bad because they are so bad from behind the arc and it hurts RJ's ability to penetrate (perhaps his strongest quality right now) by allowing teams to seal the paint. In addition, when Zion is in the paint, it further blocks it and you can see that he actually looks worse with Zion there. Most NBA teams don't have such a dominant player in the paint and I think the spacing that most teams play with is going to agree with RJ's game.

4. Also relevant to Duke being a really bad three-point team is that I think RJ is actually a decent passer to three-point shots, but (1) many of his passes are being missed (many of them are to Reddish and Jones) and (2) he's probably less inclined to pass these in the first place when he knows that they are likely to miss.

5. Finally, the point you mentioned about not passing enough to Williamson. I think that's true only to an extent. First, he does pass to him, and before the injury, there were a couple of games (like the triple-double one) where most of his assists were to Zion. But also, Zion is mostly playing in the paint and teams make every effort to shut down passing lanes to him. And again, they can do that fairly effectively with a team that shoots so badly from the perimeter. So while it's true that when Zion does get the ball in the paint he's pretty much unstoppable, trying to make this happens often results in turnovers (by Barrett and others). So I think it would be one thing if you saw RJ just taking the ball past half court and then putting his head down in the penetration or chucking one from the 3-point line (which admittedly does happen sometimes; too often to my liking). But most of the time, the ball moves around trying to look for better options. And they don't manage to hit Zion inside (not just RJ; it's not as if Reddish is doing that and even Jones is often unsuccessful in this). Then RJ often gets the ball toward the end of the clock and is expected to create something. Which is partly the reason why his shooting percentage is not that good (that and his fairly poor shooting from the 3-point line).


Okay, after this rant, what am I saying? I guess that I have more faith than you in RJ turning out to be a good, even if not great, NBA player (certainly not another Wiggins). I'm not sure it will happen and there are certainly some warning signs. But as I say above, I'll take his dog mentality and go to war with it any day over players like Wiggins, Reddish, or others who are happy to blend in and not leave a mark. And given the shape of our SF position, I would like to have RJ on the national team for the coming WC.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1013 » by aminiaturebuddha » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:50 pm

I think RJ is starting to become a victim of being over-exposed because basically every Duke game is nationally televised. Yes, I agree he does have faults, and many of the same things that you have pointed out, mojo, he obviously needs to work on. But I think it's all being overblown a little bit.

Does he sometimes pass up Williamson for his own shot? Sure. But to say that he fails to get him the ball over and over isn't accurate in my opinion. I watched those same games this week, and have watched almost every Duke game this year. Yes, he could improve on feeding the post, and recognizing when it's appropriate to do so, but RJ is really the only player on that team that consistently does manage to get the ball to Williamson on those little curls into the lane, and the post ups he does. Certainly Tre Jones, despite his brilliance on the defensive end, doesn't provide the kind of point guard play one would expect from a top PG prospect, and seems to have very little creativity on that end to feed his teammates.

I also think Barrett suffers from having no decent shooters around him. Reddish was supposed to be that guy, but has been horrible. Jones is not a good shooter. And Williamson and Delaurier are inside players. I think this serves to exacerbate Barrett's issues as a drive-dominant player. There's often very little room for room to operate in because teams don't respect Duke's shooters.

And if Barrett is suspect as a #2 overall pick, how is Reddish even still considered to be a sure top 10 pick? He only averages one good play a game, and the rest of his play has been a disaster. But there he is, still near the top of most draft boards, because people recognize that young players have flaws.

I've also seen many people now picking Ja Morant as #2 instead of Barrett. But I wonder how many people have actually seen Morant play, more than just highlights. I've seen a few Murray State games this year, and the same things that people criticize Barrett for, Morant does to an exaggerated degree. He's constantly throwing up his own shots when his teammates are open, driving recklessly into the paint and just hoping that things will turn out alright. He's averaging 5.2 turnovers a game, playing against much weaker competition, and is a year older than Barrett. The difference? His game hasn't been picked apart as much because he's not in the Duke and Zion Williamson spotlight.

I'm not saying that Barrett doesn't have flaws and things he needs to work on (he absolutely needs to become a more consistent shooter, for instance, and work on his on ball defence in addition to the things mojo has mentioned). All I'm saying is that every 18-year-old prospect has major flaws. Even a guy like Kevin Durant had flaws coming out of Texas (sloppy ball-handling and a tendency to get pushed around on defence). About the only recent player I can think of that had few glaring flaws coming out of the NCAA as a freshman was Anthony Davis.

Barrett won't ever be a generational player like Williamson is, but he'll be alright. I think everyone just needs to take a deep breath and realize that we're still talking about a 18-year-old wing player.

Does that help talk you down off the ledge, mojo?
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1014 » by aminiaturebuddha » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:52 pm

I guess I wrote my response about the same time as Hair, because I didn't see it until mine posted. Needless to say, I agree with almost all of Hair's points.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1015 » by Hair Canada » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:06 pm

aminiaturebuddha wrote:I guess I wrote my response about the same time as Hair, because I didn't see it until mine posted. Needless to say, I agree with almost all of Hair's points.


Great minds think alike :)
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1016 » by mojo13 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:54 pm

Hah - yes...thank you. We can always count on both of you for measured and well thought out rebuttals.
I am cognizant of the microscope he is under but under-appreciative of the adverse impact his teammates have on his game. I've been flip-flopping all season between thinking of him having huge bust potential and then thinking people are way, way over critical with him. Both are true to a degree I suppose, but it certainly has been confusing for me in terms of what to make of him.

But I've taken a large step back, but still a little dizzy from the height. Thanks.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1017 » by TrueNorth31 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:10 pm

I agree with the others, some excellence responses - that Kobe/ Jordan top sled dog mentality in the end I believe will make Barrett a very good NBA player.

He has some holes in his game primarily his R hand dribbling and jump shooting - but then what 18 year old kid doesn't have things he needs to work on ? For me his strengths are readily evident, if you've seen him live his run and jump are in the 90 percentile for NBA players. He's outstanding in transition and also at finishing in the paint. He's an outstanding passer according to most respected observers ( I don't bother reading stuff in the Stepien and that ilk as they employ high school dweebs as writers). His footwork is also quite exemplemary.There's something to be said about a willingness to take tough shots, especially in the toughest conference in NCAA ( put him in the West Coast Conference and his shooting percentage would probably be 5-10% better) facing some of the most elite defenders in the country ( Kenny Williams - Carolina)

Yes it bugs me that he can't shoot better. It is one skill with work that can be improved upon for many players. For me he's similar, but better than Demar Derozan at a similar age. Both played at high D1 programs ( Barrett a year younger at age 18). According to the Draftexpress measurement database they are very similar in most physical measurements at the same relative age. As you can see, DeRozan shot 16% on threes and only 65% on free throws. Both have a scorer's mentality and both are hard workers off the court. For me the basement on Barrett is at least as good as DeRozan, but I would say probably better.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html

Another guy who had a reputation for taking bad shots was Kobe. It took him 5 years until he became a proficient long distance shooter.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

In terms of being a good teammate most of them have raved about him just being one of the guys. Basically the reason many players didn't play on the 2017 U19 team had to do with most of them being in Summer School at the time ( a very common circumstance for many D1 guys ) not that they didn't want to play with Barrett. I'd say his winning pedigree that goes with everything he seems to touch ( U19-Monteverde-Duke) is something to be embraced, not shunned.

So yes - I'd say get off that ledge.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1018 » by TrueNorth31 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:15 pm

Grange had a recent very good article in their Long Read series that addresses Barrett's mental intangibles.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/rj-barrett-duke-march-madness-big-read/

For me that sort of drive will make him better than Wiggins in the end.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1019 » by TrueNorth31 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:00 am

Very solid interview with Rowan Barrett from an Edmonton station ( much better questions than he tends to get from some Toronto radio media types- who often seem clueless about hoops)

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/edmonton-1260/audio/barrett-we-ve-worked-our-tails-off-to-get-back-to-the-world-stage-1.1275562

He talks about the coaching situation - Triano still in the mix

Seems to intimate they might consider a non-Canadian as either head coach or even as assistant

Talks about what it's like to be R.J."s dad.

Has some remarks about SGA and Nembhard.

Feels mental toughness is the next step required in the National Team's progression.
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Re: Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0 

Post#1020 » by CharlieTO » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:55 am

frumble wrote:Anyone seeing Lawson or Alexander on any mocks?
Anyone else with a realistic shot of being drafted over the next couple of seasons? (McEwen in 2020?)


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