Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[tsherkin]

Scottie excuser? Ok.

I prefer Scottie realist. It’s been obvious this season he isn’t a first option, go to scorer. He isnt a PG either. The front office realized that and traded for a legit scorer, or as they put it in a leak, IIRC, a running mate. The coaching staff had him playing many different roles this season. At this point we all know that Scottie isn’t a primary scorer, yet that is the role he played most of the season and that continues to be the expectation from people. That isn’t him. I was hopeful in his 2nd and 3rd year that could be him, but it’s clear as day now he isn’t. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a great basketball player and can’t contribute to winning in a role that isn’t a primary scorer.

Scottie All-NBA, like 90% of All-NBA player selections, is going to be based on team performance/wins. That isn’t an excuse as for his play this season, that is a fact. The team made no bones this was a development season. I believe a big part of Scottie’s development this season was recognizing what he isn’t.

Don’t worry, I’ll keep the seats warm on the bandwagon for next season.

This is a perfectly fair approach to Scottie. I don't love the term "Scottie excuser" either. There IS truth to the idea that we decided the season was lost and just ran possessions to him to see what happened. I feel a lot of the negativity came more from how posters intersected with his potential than from what the team was doing, because we knew pretty quickly that this was a tank year. We didn't even win 5 games in a single month until January, after all, and were 17-38 at the break. And then even when Scottie was playing brutally, that actually helped our case in terms of the tank, so it made any sense to get him some reps and see if SOMEthing happened.

And we saw 58 games from RJ, 33 from Quick, 57 from Poeltl... like, we were ravaged this year (obviously some from tanking, but still). That didn't create an offensive environment which was any kind of supportive for Scottie. And while this is the second season in 3 where Scottie has been under 53% TS, it was also a career-high FTr on career-high shooting volume. That's encouraging. Third-straight season of 4.8+ apg didn't suck, and we got to see his impact on RJ pretty clearly. We did get to see him learning how to get to his spots in and around the paint.

We should probably spend the off-season Clockwork Orange'g him with video of how Kawhi operates. It doesn't rely on athleticism very much. It's a lot of timing and strength. No advanced handles. Just "I'm going here as soon as I get or can create an angle." Scottie isn't that level of shooter, and hasn't shown the development arc Kawhi did in San Antonio, but that doesn't mean he can't learn lessons from the how behind Leonard's game. That's the optimistic view. He's pretty good at getting to his spot on the left mid-post already, he just needs to learn how to finish a little more effectively, especially once he gets inside 10 feet. So that's at least an encouraging start. We watched all year as he was able to get to the fade or the pull-up at the edge of the key on the left, and how he was able to carve left to right to get himself below the circle on the right side. He needs to learn more about working in traffic, but there is a foundation there.

And with some health and all that next season, maybe we'll see something more positive as we shape his role more effectively to the team.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Kawhi, DeMar, Siakam, Giannis... all these guys are known not just for their rapid development as pros but they are among the hardest workers off the court. 4 years in that just isn't a label being attributed to Scottie. The media knows. Matt Bonner urged him to get in the lab and Scottie took notice, but at the end of the season Masai is saying he improved as a leader and he needs to really work on his game. Duh.

[XTC]

I'm personally in the camp where I've come to realize Scottie isn't that guy, and most likely never will be. Rather than being a franchise caliber wing, he's more of a super role player, and I'm fine with that, but it's funny you get labeled a hater for being realistic about his weaknesses and ceiling as a player.

With that being said Scottie still has a ton of believers, and the question I ask is for those who excuse poor play for a variety of reasons (bad team, throw away season), what should we expect from Scottie next season? Hes going to be 24 next season with close to 10,000 minutes played.

For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Im seeing a ton of Aaron Gordon parallels in his game. Gordon had a TS+ of 96 in Orlando, which went up to 106 once he came to Denver. For reference Scottie has a TS+ of 94 so far in his career .

[ArthurVandelay]

And with some health and all that next season, maybe we'll see something more positive as we shape his role more effectively to the team.

That, in one sentence, is my view on Scottie. I think we see it with BI too, just like they’ve rehabilitated RJ and Ochai, and maximized guys like Poeltl and Battle.

Next year is going to be exciting with expectations. I’m really hoping for a relatively healthy season. The only thing worse than failure next year would be another injury ravaged season where we are still left wondering what the team is all about….although the hope and promise of a high lottery pick would help spur another tWo thread

[ArthurVandelay]

I'm personally in the camp where I've come to realize Scottie isn't that guy, and most likely never will be. Rather than being a franchise caliber wing, he's more of a super role player, and I'm fine with that, but it's funny you get labeled a hater for being realistic about his weaknesses and ceiling as a player.

With that being said Scottie still has a ton of believers, and the question I ask is for those who excuse poor play for a variety of reasons (bad team, throw away season), what should we expect from Scottie next season? Hes going to be 24 next season with close to 10,000 minutes played.

For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Im seeing a ton of Aaron Gordon parallels in his game. Gordon had a TS+ of 96 in Orlando, which went up to 106 once he came to Denver. For reference Scottie has a TS+ of 94 so far in his career .

There might be parallels to Scottie and Gordon but make no mistake they end at scoring efficiency and rebounding. Take a look through the stats side by side and pay special attention to the per 100 possessions and advanced metrics, especially BPM and passing. Scottie is a supercharged Aaron Gordon comparing their first 4 years.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/barnesc01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoaa01.html

The funny thing about the talk of efficiency and 3pt% is Gordon’s most efficient scoring year has been this season, 11 years in and at age 29. He’s hitting 43% of 3s on career high attempts after shooting 29% last year.

I guess my biggest beef is this narrative Scottie is a finished product. I don’t believe that. His skills are going to continue to develop and his role will likely continue to evolve in a manner that maximizes winning.

[TimeForChange]

scottie vs demar ages 20 to 23



you guys need to chill on some of your expectations

[tsherkin]

I
Im seeing a ton of Aaron Gordon parallels in his game. Gordon had a TS+ of 96 in Orlando, which went up to 106 once he came to Denver. For reference Scottie has a TS+ of 94 so far in his career .

I don't really see Aaron Gordon. AG moves well off-ball and is considerably more athletic than Barnes. Maybe he could learn some things from watching AG, though, which could help his game?

Next year is going to be exciting with expectations. I’m really hoping for a relatively healthy season. The only thing worse than failure next year would be another injury ravaged season where we are still left wondering what the team is all about….although the hope and promise of a high lottery pick would help spur another tWo thread

I don't want to expect too much, but I look at it this way: at least there are some things to look forward to, in terms of things to watch in the season. We aren't gonna win a title in 2026, which is fine, but I do hope we get to see us playing around with our resources and trying some different things with our lineup and our offensive strategies. And it'd be dope if our rookie showed us some intriguing things, too.

[TimeForChange]

first 4 seasons in the nba

[HumbleRen]

first 4 seasons in the nba

Hate these comparisons because it ignores so much context lol.

Kawhi was a FMVP and the best defender in the world at Scottie’s age. Giannis was a 27/10/5 guy at Scottie’s age.

[Tripod]

first 4 seasons in the nba

Hate these comparisons because it ignores so much context lol.

Kawhi was a FMVP and the best defender in the world at Scottie’s age. Giannis was a 27/10/5 guy at Scottie’s age.

It sets unrealistic expectations for sure.

My stance has always been:

He's not a natural scorer
He thinks pass 1st
He is unselfish
He can be great defensively except vs small G's
He lacks a 1st step
He lacks a go to move
He can't shoot the 3
He would be best surrounded by shooting
He doesn't get "easy" buckets created for him

And despite those things, he can post 20-8-6 AND he is a positive player despite being inefficient. And we HAVE seen him take over 4th Q's in many games despite his limitations.

So what if ANY of those things improve. Not all, but any. Even just a little bit. Some are under his control, some are not. Keep working on the things he can control.

We have added guys who think scoring 1st and are way more natural at it than him...RJ, IQ and now BI. We are trying to add more outside shooting. Being unselfish, I don't think he cares one bit what his PPG total is if they are winning and he is contributing in other ways.

I do think the bit of yo-yoing position wise has hurt him solely in the "how should I develop my body". Playing him as a small C of course his mindset will be, "I need to get bigger so I am not getting beaten up". But then he moves to PG and ball handling and that bulk is bad and you would rather a quicker, lighter version.

He was "furthest away from reaching his potential" yet has a ROTY and All Star under his belt in 4 years. I think it's fair to say he has gone good year, no improvement, good year, no improvement(except defensively). Now he needs step up again.

I don't care if he scores 16 or 20 if others are scoring or we are exploring mis-matches and we are winning. I expect all the top guys to possibly drop a little in pts just due to multiple scoring options. Who cares if we win. I know it's not the same, but Donovan Mitchell scored 4 less ppg this year vs 2 s ago. Anyone care? No. BI or RJ will lead the team in scoring with Barnes and IQ the next 2 in some order. But all will have games where they are the top scorer, depending on team and matchup. Nice to have multiple options.

Barnes helped to create what looks like our new identity and that's great defense. Let him be the defensive anchor which he loves doing too. And if his offense improves, the team benefits.

[Los_29]

first 4 seasons in the nba

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

[Thaddy]

first 4 seasons in the nba

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

[Los_29]

first 4 seasons in the nba

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Where are you getting the mid-range numbers?

And it’s also irrelevant. The reality is Scottie had a horrid TS% and was bad from most spots on the floor. He should get his usage drastically reduced. No team in the league would allow him to score 25ppg because it would be terrible offense.

The team is going to try and win next year.

[Tripod]

first 4 seasons in the nba

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Trying to force Barnes to be a volume scorer won't result in more wins though.

25 PPG is top 10 in the league....more than Dame, KAT, Curry, Mitchell, Herro, James, Young, etc... who are all natural scorers. It's so unrealistic to even think Barnes can be that let alone TRY and make him that. And then on top of that, expect him to be great defensively. Will never happen.

Let him excel defensively as our achor on that side of the floor and let him add depth scoring to the more natural, better scorers. It will result in way more wins.

[Thaddy]

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Trying to force Barnes to be a volume scorer won't result in more wins though.

25 PPG is top 10 in the league....more than Dame, KAT, Curry, Mitchell, Herro, James, Young, etc... who are all natural scorers. It's so unrealistic to even think Barnes can be that let alone TRY and make him that. And then on top of that, expect him to be great defensively. Will never happen.

Let him excel defensively as our achor on that side of the floor and let him add depth scoring to the more natural, better scorers. It will result in way more wins.

Per 36 mins RJ is at almost 24. Barnes should be better than him at finishing if he increases his 0-3 FGAs based solely on physical attributes. Then he has an edge with mid range shooting. The 3pt shot should improve over the course of the year. He was shooting a career high from 10-16 ft, I'm hoping he extends his range over the off season. The hope isn't high... But he's all we got to hinge on.

I agree the realistic scenario is he'll be the 4th option behind Ingram, RJ and IQ. If he can show strong finishing ability on catch and shoots, finishing on the roll and in transition then it would make RJ expendable and move him up the scoring hierarchy.

The excuses of not giving him a gap to fill (why we blew up the Siakam and OG core) isn't it. He has to demand it or take a back seat and render himself a bad contract.

[ArthurVandelay]

We can do this for a lot of young players. The reality is Kawhi and Giannis showed considerable improvement year to year and had far better tools.

Demar was below average or league average in terms of efficiency up until his late 20s and early 30s. That’s not a normal trajectory. There is no reason to think Scottie can be a 25ppg scorer on good efficiency. None.

Scottie has shown very little improvement and he doesn’t have the same tools/athleticism as the others he’s being compared to.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Trying to force Barnes to be a volume scorer won't result in more wins though.

25 PPG is top 10 in the league....more than Dame, KAT, Curry, Mitchell, Herro, James, Young, etc... who are all natural scorers. It's so unrealistic to even think Barnes can be that let alone TRY and make him that. And then on top of that, expect him to be great defensively. Will never happen.

Let him excel defensively as our achor on that side of the floor and let him add depth scoring to the more natural, better scorers. It will result in way more wins.

25ppg is totally unrealistic imo

The raw numbers Scottie is producing I think is what he is going to be (20/8/6 with 3 stocks - rounded up). He’s just going to need an RJ-like shot diet adjustment.

As you said, he’s not a primary scorer and any expectation of that is going to only deliver disappointment.

[Tripod]

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Trying to force Barnes to be a volume scorer won't result in more wins though.

25 PPG is top 10 in the league....more than Dame, KAT, Curry, Mitchell, Herro, James, Young, etc... who are all natural scorers. It's so unrealistic to even think Barnes can be that let alone TRY and make him that. And then on top of that, expect him to be great defensively. Will never happen.

Let him excel defensively as our achor on that side of the floor and let him add depth scoring to the more natural, better scorers. It will result in way more wins.

Per 36 mins RJ is at almost 24. Barnes should be better than him at finishing if he increases his 0-3 FGAs based solely on physical attributes. Then he has an edge with mid range shooting. The 3pt shot should improve over the course of the year. He was shooting a career high from 10-16 ft, I'm hoping he extends his range over the off season. The hope isn't high... But he's all we got to hinge on.

I agree the realistic scenario is he'll be the 4th option behind Ingram, RJ and IQ. If he can show strong finishing ability on catch and shoots, finishing on the roll and in transition then it would make RJ expendable and move him up the scoring hierarchy.

The excuses of not giving him a gap to fill (why we blew up the Siakam and OG core) isn't it. He has to demand it or take a back seat and render himself a bad contract.

That last part simply isn't true. He can be great defensively and be a 17/18-8-6 guy and it's nowhere near a bad contract.

Mobley is the 3rd...sometimes 4th(Jerome) scoring option on his team and no one cares because he is great defensively and the team is winning. Barnes doesn't have Mobley's defensive upside but again, he has shown he can be great defensively....and our leader on that side of the court. So let him be that.

If he "naturally" gets better at offense, great. But now it's about winning and just playing to strengths vs "reps" will help everyone. Go hunt mis-matches each game and exploit that. Who cares who it is each night if it means winning more games.

Let's see how all the pieces fit once the lottery and offseason play out....see who we add...and possibly subtract.

[Thaddy]

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Trying to force Barnes to be a volume scorer won't result in more wins though.

25 PPG is top 10 in the league....more than Dame, KAT, Curry, Mitchell, Herro, James, Young, etc... who are all natural scorers. It's so unrealistic to even think Barnes can be that let alone TRY and make him that. And then on top of that, expect him to be great defensively. Will never happen.

Let him excel defensively as our achor on that side of the floor and let him add depth scoring to the more natural, better scorers. It will result in way more wins.

25ppg is totally unrealistic imo

The raw numbers Scottie is producing I think is what he is going to be (20/8/6 with 3 stocks - rounded up). He’s just going to need an RJ-like shot diet adjustment.

As you said, he’s not a primary scorer and any expectation of that is going to only deliver disappointment.

RJ is at 24PPG per 36 mins. If Barnes had a similar shot diet he could probably get their too. We probably aren't goign down that road, he'll likely be a 4th option focused on rebounding and defense. My ideal stat line next year doesn't even involve scoring. 8-11 rebounds, 7-9 assists, and 3 stocks per game would be great. Then also only shooting catch and shoot shots, limiting mid range looks, and going to the rim more (0-3 ft) and shooting (65+ percent).

[Agimat]

Scottie Barnes and Mogbo currently in the Philippines lol

[TimeForChange]

Scottie Barnes and Mogbo currently in the Philippines lol

why is that funny?