Tank World Order

[T-d0t]

I wish the Raps were in a similar position to OKC where they have teams tanking for them while their team is developing young talent and trying to compete.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I wish the Raps were in a similar position to OKC where they have teams tanking for them while their team is developing young talent and trying to compete.

The thing is the Thunder aren't really even trying to compete, they just have a bunch of young, hungry and talented guys who are playing hard.

This is the misconception with "tanking." There are people who seem to think players are told to lose or not try which has simply never happened across any sport. The players responsible for the Thunder being competitive are young and have either a future with the team or they are building their value in a trade for something substantial down the road.

The Raptors are scratching and clawing their way to a 9th seed on the backs of Lowry, Powell and Boucher who will all be gone within the next 2 years.

[bluerap23]

Can anyone share some examples where a team intentionally tanked for 2 or more years and it lead to a championship?

[h4rrison]

Can anyone share some examples where a team intentionally tanked for 2 or more years and it lead to a championship?

Pre bron lakers/cavs

[vini_vidi_vici]

Can anyone share some examples where a team intentionally tanked for 2 or more years and it lead to a championship?

Pre bron lakers/cavs

Pre-Bron Cavs won nothing. Post-Bron Cavs won nothing, until he went back there via FA (S&T).

Pre-Bron Lakers, got LBJ via FA.

So all we need is the best player of the generation to sign with us (not get drafted by) to prove tanking works??

[Asif16]

Intentionally tanking never works. Besides, the Raps team is too good to even tank. We all knew a winning streak was coming sooner or later.

[Inevitable]

We are to good at being bad but we aren’t good enough to be good, so let’s just stay right here at the worst spot imaginable while we are at risk of losing another two major pieces this off season - Pro Treadmill logic

[baller16]

So what exactly is the non-tanking plan?

If we end up as 7th or 8th seed, we're getting swept by the Nets or Bucks and Celtics/Philly/Miami will beat us in 5 games max. So a first round exit plus a mid-low first round pick where we draft a player with a low chance of being a future star. There's also a high chance we lose Lowry & Norm in the off-season and we can't get Dipo unless we offer him the full max and nothing less. I also don't know why people are so optimistic about him signing here when we have a terrible history of signing FAs. Worst of all, Masai's contact situation is still in the air and if he leaves this organization will take a step back.

So is this the brilliant plan that the win now people want to go with?

Sorry.... what’s the tanking plan? Dismantle the team, trade players for picks, spend five years sucking? Or did people actually think we could manufacture five injuries for a quick one year tank? Or did some people actually think it would only take ten game sample size for Ujiri ti dismantle a team?

I’ll assume their plan is the same as always. Continue to build.

But you can expect one of Lowry or Norm to be traded with the amount of guards we have, and it almost certainly would be Norm. Teams don’t even know what they need yet, what they need, nothing is going to happen until close to the deadline in March. Obviously nobody is approaching the raptors begging for them to trade their players and sending great offers.


Dipo is going to the heat if he can. He’s already said it out loud. ujiri’s contract is in fact the most Important thing, and I agree, it’s not normal. There is something wrong with it taking this long, so....

The tanking plan is simple, only tank for this meaningless bubble season so we can hopefully land a top 5 pick and add more talent. No one is saying to dump everything and become the Knicks.

People who think that we should continue to build with our current roster while drafting low picks is the way to go are fooling themselves. Hitting gems through undrafted and low picks isn't some sustainable model, it requires massive luck. When Lowry is gone or hits the hard decline, the outlook of this team isn't gonna be pretty and maybe then people will see why this team lacks massive talent

[Pooh_Jeter]

Can anyone share some examples where a team intentionally tanked for 2 or more years and it lead to a championship?

Pre bron lakers/cavs

Pre-Bron Cavs won nothing. Post-Bron Cavs won nothing, until he went back there via FA (S&T).

Pre-Bron Lakers, got LBJ via FA.

So all we need is the best player of the generation to sign with us (not get drafted by) to prove tanking works??

LeBron went back to the Cavs because they had a #1 pick in Kyrie and had just gotten the #1 pick to trade for a 3rd star.

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs the first LeBron year. When they traded all their lotto assets for a 2nd star they won and they are currently heavy favourites to repeat.

It's an asset play. Turns out having young, high end talent is extremely attractive to other players and is conducive to winning.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Pre bron lakers/cavs

Pre-Bron Cavs won nothing. Post-Bron Cavs won nothing, until he went back there via FA (S&T).

Pre-Bron Lakers, got LBJ via FA.

So all we need is the best player of the generation to sign with us (not get drafted by) to prove tanking works??

LeBron went back to the Cavs because they had a #1 pick in Kyrie and had just gotten the #1 pick to trade for a 3rd star.

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs the first LeBron year. When they traded all their lotto assets for a 2nd star they won and they are currently heavy favourites to repeat.

It's an asset play. Turns out having young, high end talent is extremely attractive to other players and is conducive to winning.

a high draft pick is more valuable than a pick in the 20s. someone you can trade for a superstar down the road if the opportunity comes up. who would have thought

[Psubs]

Silver said he's going to make it up to us.

Raptors will finish 7th and then lose the play in game vs #8 in OT, then they will lose the 2nd game in double OT. Then they will win a top 3 pick in the draft lottery. Help like they did Cleveland and Chicago.

[Pooh_Jeter]

We are to good at being bad but we aren’t good enough to be good, so let’s just stay right here at the worst spot imaginable while we are at risk of losing another two major pieces this off season - Pro Treadmill logic

Don't worry even though the assets on this team are mediocre and Toronto isn't a destination for any FA/trade target the Raptors will magically swoop in and get another Kawhi deal for the second time in 4 years. Masai got us...if he signs that extension. But, even if he leaves Bobby got us...if he signs that extension. If they all leave then uhhh, Tolzman got us?

[MixxSRC]

We are to good at being bad but we aren’t good enough to be good, so let’s just stay right here at the worst spot imaginable while we are at risk of losing another two major pieces this off season - Pro Treadmill logic

Don't worry even though the assets on this team are mediocre and Toronto isn't a destination for any FA/trade target the Raptors will magically swoop in and get another Kawhi deal for the second time in 4 years. Masai got us...if he signs that extension. But, even if he leaves Bobby got us...if he signs that extension. If they all leave then uhhh, Tolzman got us?

yeah in 4 years when Siakam and FVV are at the end of their primes

[vini_vidi_vici]

Pre bron lakers/cavs

Pre-Bron Cavs won nothing. Post-Bron Cavs won nothing, until he went back there via FA (S&T).

Pre-Bron Lakers, got LBJ via FA.

So all we need is the best player of the generation to sign with us (not get drafted by) to prove tanking works??

LeBron went back to the Cavs because they had a #1 pick in Kyrie and had just gotten the #1 pick to trade for a 3rd star.

The Lakers didn't even make the playoffs the first LeBron year. When they traded all their lotto assets for a 2nd star they won and they are currently heavy favourites to repeat.

It's an asset play. Turns out having young, high end talent is extremely attractive to other players and is conducive to winning.

Yea so LeBron the best player of our generation, signed to his hometown team, because they had good players on it already. He didnt sign because they tanked, and he wasnt involved in the tanking. A team with Kyrie/Love wasnt winning a championship.

Again they signed LBJ, to make that already desirable market even more attractive. We just need another star, once we draft an LBJ to force a trade out of his current situation to our team so we can use those tanked picks. AD wasnt coming to a young, high end talent team.

The irony of saying the Kawhi deal is once in a million, and citing these examples as means to a Raptors rebuild is laughable.

Youre actually arguing against tanking here because a) the best player (arguably ever) need to sign with the team via FA in order to win championships.

So we need either a generational talent that was born here and wants to win a ship for the city, or to move the team to LA where those generational talents prefer to play Kawhi/PG13/AD/LBJ/Shaq/Kobe/etc..

[LBJKB24MJ23]

We are to good at being bad but we aren’t good enough to be good, so let’s just stay right here at the worst spot imaginable while we are at risk of losing another two major pieces this off season - Pro Treadmill logic

Don't worry even though the assets on this team are mediocre and Toronto isn't a destination for any FA/trade target the Raptors will magically swoop in and get another Kawhi deal for the second time in 4 years. Masai got us...if he signs that extension. But, even if he leaves Bobby got us...if he signs that extension. If they all leave then uhhh, Tolzman got us?

eh, Raptors are treadmilling right now. Raptors going to trade for an established star and watch them leave in 1-2 years again?

Best thing for the Raptors to get a star with control is through the lottery. 7 years at the very minimum. the weighted distribution of getting a high quality player with a higher pick in a no-brainer. the higher the pick, the better the quality overall. this is not a new science and historical proof is in the pudding, despite some are busts, which are everywhere throughout the draft, not just the lottery.

this is an argument in favour of tanking.

ofc the Raptors are playing better now and i think most people are expecting a first round knockout but to see them be in the playoffs is better than a lottery pick, for whatever reason. lottery picks have great value when trading for a star player, in terms of value, which is what the non-tankers are expecting lightning to strike twice.

[KrazyP]

So what exactly is the non-tanking plan?

If we end up as 7th or 8th seed, we're getting swept by the Nets or Bucks and Celtics/Philly/Miami will beat us in 5 games max. So a first round exit plus a mid-low first round pick where we draft a player with a low chance of being a future star. There's also a high chance we lose Lowry & Norm in the off-season and we can't get Dipo unless we offer him the full max and nothing less. I also don't know why people are so optimistic about him signing here when we have a terrible history of signing FAs. Worst of all, Masai's contact situation is still in the air and if he leaves this organization will take a step back.

So is this the brilliant plan that the win now people want to go with?

Sorry.... what’s the tanking plan? Dismantle the team, trade players for picks, spend five years sucking? Or did people actually think we could manufacture five injuries for a quick one year tank? Or did some people actually think it would only take ten game sample size for Ujiri ti dismantle a team?

I’ll assume their plan is the same as always. Continue to build.

But you can expect one of Lowry or Norm to be traded with the amount of guards we have, and it almost certainly would be Norm. Teams don’t even know what they need yet, what they need, nothing is going to happen until close to the deadline in March. Obviously nobody is approaching the raptors begging for them to trade their players and sending great offers.


Dipo is going to the heat if he can. He’s already said it out loud. ujiri’s contract is in fact the most Important thing, and I agree, it’s not normal. There is something wrong with it taking this long, so....

The tanking plan is simple, only tank for this meaningless bubble season so we can hopefully land a top 5 pick and add more talent. No one is saying to dump everything and become the Knicks.

People who think that we should continue to build with our current roster while drafting low picks is the way to go are fooling themselves. Hitting gems through undrafted and low picks isn't some sustainable model, it requires massive luck. When Lowry is gone or hits the hard decline, the outlook of this team isn't gonna be pretty and maybe then people will see why this team lacks massive talent

Do you tanksters even understand how difficult it is to be bad enough to get a top 5 pick?

The last time the Raps landed a pick that high....Bargnani was our 1st option and a borderline washed up Jose Calderon was our best player.

Teams who land picks that high do so by either (1) complete incompetence or (2) major injuries.

If a top 5 pick is the goal...you probably have to dump at least 2 of Lowry/Siakam/VanVleet/Nurse and get nothing immediately positive back in return.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Yea so LeBron the best player of our generation, signed to his hometown team, because they had good players on it already. He didnt sign because they tanked, and he wasnt involved in the tanking. A team with Kyrie/Love wasnt winning a championship.

Again they signed LBJ, to make that already desirable market even more attractive. We just need another star, once we draft an LBJ to force a trade out of his current situation to our team so we can use those tanked picks. AD wasnt coming to a young, high end talent team.

The irony of saying the Kawhi deal is once in a million, and citing these examples as means to a Raptors rebuild is laughable.

Youre actually arguing against tanking here because a) the best player (arguably ever) need to sign with the team via FA in order to win championships.

So we need either a generational talent that was born here and wants to win a ship for the city, or to move the team to LA where those generational talents prefer to play Kawhi/PG13/AD/LBJ/Shaq/Kobe/etc..

What are you even arguing?

LeBron isn't the only player who has ever won a championship. The Warriors built a dynasty and became a prestige team because they nailed two lotto picks. The Spurs built a dynasty on the backs of two #1 picks. The Lakers traded an established veteran for a lotto pick that got them Kobe and led to a dynasty.

LeBron was NOT signing back with the Cavs unless they had a nucleus he thought he could win with. They only dealt that #1 pick because LeBron was signing back there. The Lakers had the assets to trade for AD and get that championship because of their lotto picks.

So if the Raptors aren't a desirable trade/FA destination how do you think the Raptors should acquire a star/elite young talent?

Also, the idea behind all this is a sustained period of being a contender. Nothing guarantees a championship, but you can at least put yourself in a position to be in the conversation year in and year out. Being purposely obtuse is a terrible form of argumentation.

[Steelo Green]

Sorry.... what’s the tanking plan? Dismantle the team, trade players for picks, spend five years sucking? Or did people actually think we could manufacture five injuries for a quick one year tank? Or did some people actually think it would only take ten game sample size for Ujiri ti dismantle a team?

I’ll assume their plan is the same as always. Continue to build.

But you can expect one of Lowry or Norm to be traded with the amount of guards we have, and it almost certainly would be Norm. Teams don’t even know what they need yet, what they need, nothing is going to happen until close to the deadline in March. Obviously nobody is approaching the raptors begging for them to trade their players and sending great offers.


Dipo is going to the heat if he can. He’s already said it out loud. ujiri’s contract is in fact the most Important thing, and I agree, it’s not normal. There is something wrong with it taking this long, so....

The tanking plan is simple, only tank for this meaningless bubble season so we can hopefully land a top 5 pick and add more talent. No one is saying to dump everything and become the Knicks.

People who think that we should continue to build with our current roster while drafting low picks is the way to go are fooling themselves. Hitting gems through undrafted and low picks isn't some sustainable model, it requires massive luck. When Lowry is gone or hits the hard decline, the outlook of this team isn't gonna be pretty and maybe then people will see why this team lacks massive talent

Do you tanksters even understand how difficult it is to be bad enough to get a top 5 pick?

The last time the Raps landed a pick that high....Bargnani was our 1st option and a borderline washed up Jose Calderon was our best player.

Teams who land picks that high do so by either (1) complete incompetence or (2) major injuries.

If a top 5 pick is the goal...you probably have to dump at least 2 of Lowry/Siakam/VanVleet/Nurse and get nothing immediately positive back in return.

Val at 5 and yeah 7 years of making the playoffs will likely lead to not getting high picks.

The lottery picks though: Demar, Val, Ross, Jak, were all pieces moved for the players that netted us the title (though Demars was a bit of a luck play with Kawhi having such low value).

I think personally if you remove just Kyle, this team will take a very large step back.

We’re likely going to be a low PO seed. Take away it’s best player and we would be pretty deep in the lottery.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Sorry.... what’s the tanking plan? Dismantle the team, trade players for picks, spend five years sucking? Or did people actually think we could manufacture five injuries for a quick one year tank? Or did some people actually think it would only take ten game sample size for Ujiri ti dismantle a team?

I’ll assume their plan is the same as always. Continue to build.

But you can expect one of Lowry or Norm to be traded with the amount of guards we have, and it almost certainly would be Norm. Teams don’t even know what they need yet, what they need, nothing is going to happen until close to the deadline in March. Obviously nobody is approaching the raptors begging for them to trade their players and sending great offers.


Dipo is going to the heat if he can. He’s already said it out loud. ujiri’s contract is in fact the most Important thing, and I agree, it’s not normal. There is something wrong with it taking this long, so....

The tanking plan is simple, only tank for this meaningless bubble season so we can hopefully land a top 5 pick and add more talent. No one is saying to dump everything and become the Knicks.

People who think that we should continue to build with our current roster while drafting low picks is the way to go are fooling themselves. Hitting gems through undrafted and low picks isn't some sustainable model, it requires massive luck. When Lowry is gone or hits the hard decline, the outlook of this team isn't gonna be pretty and maybe then people will see why this team lacks massive talent

Do you tanksters even understand how difficult it is to be bad enough to get a top 5 pick?

The last time the Raps landed a pick that high....Bargnani was our 1st option and a borderline washed up Jose Calderon was our best player.

Teams who land picks that high do so by either (1) complete incompetence or (2) major injuries.

If a top 5 pick is the goal...you probably have to dump at least 2 of Lowry/Siakam/VanVleet/Nurse and get nothing immediately positive back in return.

take Lowry, Norm out and the Raptors will be bad enough to get a chance to be in the top 5. We sell high on Boucher, potentially, depending if we get a 1st round pick, if we don't, Boucher is still a Raptor.

Lowry Boucher could be a few future FRPs potentially, verdict is out on Norm on what he can bring back. I don't think it would take a lot, just the heart of the team ala Lowry.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

We are to good at being bad but we aren’t good enough to be good, so let’s just stay right here at the worst spot imaginable while we are at risk of losing another two major pieces this off season - Pro Treadmill logic

Don't worry even though the assets on this team are mediocre and Toronto isn't a destination for any FA/trade target the Raptors will magically swoop in and get another Kawhi deal for the second time in 4 years. Masai got us...if he signs that extension. But, even if he leaves Bobby got us...if he signs that extension. If they all leave then uhhh, Tolzman got us?

yeah in 4 years when Siakam and FVV are at the end of their primes

they'll be the new Lowry/Derozan combo. good enough to be a playoff contender but not good enough to get deep in the playoffs - at least not yet.