Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[Scase]

Not arguing sustainability, how much is real, small sample size etc but that's quite the jump, even in a small sample size.

Imo I think he's working on his shooting overall both three point shooting and at that range.

I think you are so focused on the three point shots and the misses because they stick out like a sore thumb that you don't look at what he's currently doing inside the three point line.

That 11.6% sample size amounts to 22 FGA, for a total of 12 made FGs, he misses 2 of those and he's at 45%, still a bump but we've got numbers so small that a single game can shoot him up to 70% or down to 20%, it's meaningless to draw conclusions one way or the other. The difference with this being that you have other full seasons of sample size showing that he's not likely that good all of a sudden.

If I see this 50 games into his season, I will be more inclined to be excited.

What is more of a concern, is that he is taking much fewer at the basket shots, and supplanting them with 3's. He's taking his highest % shots, and replacing them with his worst possible shot. That's just in general a bad idea, be it a 3, or in the paint etc.

Bad shots are bad shots, doesn't matter where from. Him taking 33% of all shots from 3, and only 11% from midrange is my issue. His worst seasons from midrange are comparable to his best seasons from 3. It's just a bad idea.

Read the chart a bit better.

Last year 31.4% of his total shots are 3s.

This year thus far 32.8% of his total shot are 3s

That isn't really a big jump.

What is actually happening 'is he's taking more mid range shots'

Last year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 14.8% total.

This year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 20.1% total.

His 2P shot diet has been decreasing every year.

Year 1: .793
Year 2: .780
Year 3: .686
Year 4: .672

Remember year 3 was his real break out year.

Simply put he's taking fewer shots at the rim because he's become less and less reliant, but his efficiency overall is benefitting.

He's shooting .551 atm on 2 point shots.

Look, if you want him to take more mid range shots, it's going to come at the cost of other areas, notably at 0-3 feet.

I read the chart perfectly fine, what I am saying is that his midrange attempts should be at the detriment to his 3pt attempts, not his at the rim attempts as they have been.

He's taking a bit more 3's, more midrange but much fewer at the basket shots. He should be more at the basket and midrange than 3, this is my point.

He's not less reliant, he's just taking worse shots. He shoots 70%+ at the rim, and he shots 30% at best from 3, that's poor shot selection, there is no other way to put it. If the idea is jack up 3's until you get better, I get the concept, but that's not really how it works. Shot quality matters.

His 2pt naturally has to go down for his 3pt to go up, I just heavily question the decision to do so.

[Vampirate]

That 11.6% sample size amounts to 22 FGA, for a total of 12 made FGs, he misses 2 of those and he's at 45%, still a bump but we've got numbers so small that a single game can shoot him up to 70% or down to 20%, it's meaningless to draw conclusions one way or the other. The difference with this being that you have other full seasons of sample size showing that he's not likely that good all of a sudden.

If I see this 50 games into his season, I will be more inclined to be excited.

What is more of a concern, is that he is taking much fewer at the basket shots, and supplanting them with 3's. He's taking his highest % shots, and replacing them with his worst possible shot. That's just in general a bad idea, be it a 3, or in the paint etc.

Bad shots are bad shots, doesn't matter where from. Him taking 33% of all shots from 3, and only 11% from midrange is my issue. His worst seasons from midrange are comparable to his best seasons from 3. It's just a bad idea.

Read the chart a bit better.

Last year 31.4% of his total shots are 3s.

This year thus far 32.8% of his total shot are 3s

That isn't really a big jump.

What is actually happening 'is he's taking more mid range shots'

Last year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 14.8% total.

This year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 20.1% total.

His 2P shot diet has been decreasing every year.

Year 1: .793
Year 2: .780
Year 3: .686
Year 4: .672

Remember year 3 was his real break out year.

Simply put he's taking fewer shots at the rim because he's become less and less reliant, but his efficiency overall is benefitting.

He's shooting .551 atm on 2 point shots.

Look, if you want him to take more mid range shots, it's going to come at the cost of other areas, notably at 0-3 feet.

I read the chart perfectly fine, what I am saying is that his midrange attempts should be at the detriment to his 3pt attempts, not his at the rim attempts as they have been.

He's taking a bit more 3's, more midrange but much fewer at the basket shots. He should be more at the basket and midrange than 3, this is my point.

He's not less reliant, he's just taking worse shots. He shoots 70%+ at the rim, and he shots 30% at best from 3, that's poor shot selection, there is no other way to put it. If the idea is jack up 3's until you get better, I get the concept, but that's not really how it works. Shot quality matters.

His 2pt naturally has to go down for his 3pt to go up, I just heavily question the decision to do so.

You're letting his early season struggles cloud your judgement (specifically that 2-12 night).

You said yourself that you'd be fine with him taking about 6 threes a night, he's at 5.5 atm.

Honestly considering how bad he started from 3 early in the year we also need a bigger sample size to see if last year is how good Barnes is from 3 or the years prior.

Since coming back from the eye injury, he's been shooting 31.3% from 3.

Take out that horrible 2-12 night and it's 35.8%.

If he continues to keep hitting above 35% from 3, then yeah, maybe 5 is too low, but above 8 is probably too high.

5-8 threes seem to be the sweet spot for him. He should never either shoot under 4 threes or above 9 threes (unless he's just on fire)


Also if you take out that 2-12 game his 3P% volume is probably closer to 28% than the 32.8% he's currently at.


As for the bold, I disagree, he's going to need to develop counters to the likes of the Cavs, and thus needs to expand his range (including the mid range).

[Scase]

Read the chart a bit better.

Last year 31.4% of his total shots are 3s.

This year thus far 32.8% of his total shot are 3s

That isn't really a big jump.

What is actually happening 'is he's taking more mid range shots'

Last year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 14.8% total.

This year between 10-3P his mid range overall was 20.1% total.

His 2P shot diet has been decreasing every year.

Year 1: .793
Year 2: .780
Year 3: .686
Year 4: .672

Remember year 3 was his real break out year.

Simply put he's taking fewer shots at the rim because he's become less and less reliant, but his efficiency overall is benefitting.

He's shooting .551 atm on 2 point shots.

Look, if you want him to take more mid range shots, it's going to come at the cost of other areas, notably at 0-3 feet.

I read the chart perfectly fine, what I am saying is that his midrange attempts should be at the detriment to his 3pt attempts, not his at the rim attempts as they have been.

He's taking a bit more 3's, more midrange but much fewer at the basket shots. He should be more at the basket and midrange than 3, this is my point.

He's not less reliant, he's just taking worse shots. He shoots 70%+ at the rim, and he shots 30% at best from 3, that's poor shot selection, there is no other way to put it. If the idea is jack up 3's until you get better, I get the concept, but that's not really how it works. Shot quality matters.

His 2pt naturally has to go down for his 3pt to go up, I just heavily question the decision to do so.

You're letting his early season struggles cloud your judgement (specifically that 2-12 night).

You said yourself that you'd be fine with him taking about 6 threes a night, he's at 5.5 atm.

Honestly considering how bad he started from 3 early in the year we also need a bigger sample size to see if last year is how good Barnes is from 3 or the years prior.

Since coming back from the eye injury, he's been shooting 31.3% from 3.

Take out that horrible 2-12 night and it's 35.8%.

If he continues to keep hitting above 35% from 3, then yeah, maybe 5 is too low, but above 8 is probably too high.

5-8 threes seem to be the sweet spot for him. He should never either shoot under 4 threes or above 9 threes (unless he's just on fire)


Also if you take out that 2-12 game his 3P% volume is probably closer to 28% than the 32.8% he's currently at.


As for the bold, I disagree, he's going to need to develop counters to the likes of the Cavs, and thus needs to expand his range (including the mid range).

You cant just ignore a really bad shooting night cause it supports your argument lol. Why stop there, what would his % if he shot 6/12 that game, or 10/12!!!

His numbers matter, both the good and the bad, the sample size is small, he's had good starts before and cooled off, so until that stops happening doubts are reasonable.

And as for the Cavs comment, I agree, but that doesn't change anything I'm not saying he shouldn't take any 3's but he needs a better balance. And he needs to cut those pull up 3s out as well.

[Vampirate]

I read the chart perfectly fine, what I am saying is that his midrange attempts should be at the detriment to his 3pt attempts, not his at the rim attempts as they have been.

He's taking a bit more 3's, more midrange but much fewer at the basket shots. He should be more at the basket and midrange than 3, this is my point.

He's not less reliant, he's just taking worse shots. He shoots 70%+ at the rim, and he shots 30% at best from 3, that's poor shot selection, there is no other way to put it. If the idea is jack up 3's until you get better, I get the concept, but that's not really how it works. Shot quality matters.

His 2pt naturally has to go down for his 3pt to go up, I just heavily question the decision to do so.

You're letting his early season struggles cloud your judgement (specifically that 2-12 night).

You said yourself that you'd be fine with him taking about 6 threes a night, he's at 5.5 atm.

Honestly considering how bad he started from 3 early in the year we also need a bigger sample size to see if last year is how good Barnes is from 3 or the years prior.

Since coming back from the eye injury, he's been shooting 31.3% from 3.

Take out that horrible 2-12 night and it's 35.8%.

If he continues to keep hitting above 35% from 3, then yeah, maybe 5 is too low, but above 8 is probably too high.

5-8 threes seem to be the sweet spot for him. He should never either shoot under 4 threes or above 9 threes (unless he's just on fire)


Also if you take out that 2-12 game his 3P% volume is probably closer to 28% than the 32.8% he's currently at.


As for the bold, I disagree, he's going to need to develop counters to the likes of the Cavs, and thus needs to expand his range (including the mid range).

You cant just ignore a really bad shooting night cause it supports your argument lol. Why stop there, what would his % if he shot 6/12 that game, or 10/12!!!

His numbers matter, both the good and the bad, the sample size is small, he's had good starts before and cooled off, so until that stops happening doubts are reasonable.

And as for the Cavs comment, I agree, but that doesn't change anything I'm not saying he shouldn't take any 3's but he needs a better balance. And he needs to cut those pull up 3s out as well.

Let me give you some encouraging signs.

His pull up 3s are draining his three point percentages, he's taking an average of 1.6 pull up threes a night, and hitting it at 11%.

He's also taking more pull up shots in general, 5.3 a night and shooting 36.2% overall. Contextualizing that he's taking 3.7 pull up 2s and hitting them at a 45% clip which is encouraging.

His three point percentage is going to continue to climb.

His catch and shoot threes year by year.

Year 1. 29%
Year 2. 30.1%

Year 3. 38.5% (this includes his slumps)
Year 4. 37.2%

Essentially if he can limit his pull up 3s to 1 a night (still take some to get more used to them) instead of 1.6 a night, he could be having 1 heck of a year if these trends continue.

[Scizzup]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

[tsherkin]

You definitely need guys who can get buckets. I disagree that that player has to be the best player on the team. A guy like Tyler Herro is capable of putting up close to that 25-30ppg, and efficiently too. But he would never be the best player on a contender. We definitely need a flamethrower/play finisher who's at an all star level to pair with Scottie and reap the benefits of his court vision and bball IQ. I don't think that flamethrower necessarily needs to be an overall better player than Scottie.[/b]

Don't love that analogy. Tyler Herro has yet to log a season of league-average TS%. He has a single full season with a TS+ higher than 97, and it was 99. This year, he's at 61.4% TS player, which would be a career-high. He's also logging +.200 FTr or better for the first time, posting his first season of 40%+ from 3 and doing it on career-high volume. All over 19 games. So it's more likely that he'll normalize by the end of the season.

So again, he isn't a particularly good example, and it's quite likely very wrong that he could put up anywhere near 30 ppg on anything like good efficiency.

Scottie doesn't need to be a 30 ppg scorer, though. That has never really been the contention. The issue is one of efficiency and his ability to step it up when it matters, and to carry a reasonable volume over the season. To be an MVP-level player (with respect to the idea of title contention only, not deep playoff runs, mind).

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

Sure. I'm not a pro-tank guy. Would I like to get Flagg? Yes. Would I prefer us to be good enough to be consistently in the playoffs and be okay with that? Yes, absolutely.

Someone better than current Scottie we certainly need.

But the path we have that is most likely to result in that happening, is Scottie becoming that player himself.

Unlikely he reaches that level. But again, we both agree that it's worth seeing where we go with him in the absence of something akin to the Kawhi trade coming up. Understand, though, I've not been arguing for us to tank.

This is one of several reasons terms like "primary option" have really become outdated. The Nuggets won in '23 and Jokic averaged 24.5ppg but was by far their best player, the lowest he's put up in the last 5 years. His highest was ~27ppg prior to this year (currently just over 30 as he's completely carried that team as they've been hurt/bad).

So, first, "primary option" isn't outdated at all. And no one is saying Scottie needs to handle 30 ppg. The discussion centers around his efficiency.

And discussing Jokic is unproductive. He has scored 26+ ppg in 3 of the previous 4 seasons and has been a 66.3% TS player over that time frame. He's a remarkably potent scorer and an extremely good playmaker, plus a host of other things. He is a multiple-time MVP for a reason. He is precisely the level of player needed for title contention, and a good example of a guy who trades shot volume for playmaking ability but can still step it up.

Is Barnes as good as Joker? No, but the archtype is similar

Not really. Jokic is a hugely efficient player, properly center-sized, a dominant rebounder and a vastly superior playmaker. He's a terrible comparison.

Tatum dipped down to 26.9ppg last year when the Celtics won their chip, as a more egalitarian offence was the smart way for the Celtics to go to put them over the top (he was 30.1ppg the year before).

Yes, and Tatum sucked ass as a scorer in the Finals but depth and their defense carried them, so again, not really an ideal comparison.

Distributed offense isn't bad. 30 ppg isn't a necessary goal. That was never the argument. MVP-caliber player was the argument. This is a goalpost shift.

[Vampirate]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

Not just to you, but to everyone critiqing barnes.

'Barnes needs to do this, Barnes should do that'

How do we know what his ultimate ceiling is if we don't let him at least try to expand what he's known for.

This is a large gripe I have with this fand base.

"We need Barnes to shoot 3s but less mid range shots"

"No we need Barnes to score more at the rim, more mid range, limit his 3s"

"no, score more at the rim, more 2s, less mid range"

"no ....etc"


Can we wait at least 30 games or so before we say what Barnes should or shouldn't do?

The guy worked on his game, worked on his moves, both inside and outside the 3 point line, let's just get a good sample size before we tell him what he needs to do.

[Scase]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

I think he still needs to prioritize mids over 3's, not so much that he forgoes 3's but much like RJ, the 3's should be controlled and limited to high quality shots. Realistically you won't see 7+ of those a night, so I'd rather we limit it to aiming for 5 quality 3's and the remainder goes into his mid range game.

He just needs to be passable as a 3p shooter to keep defences honest, perfecting a mid range game is "easier" as it's a shorter shot, and would have a bigger impact opening up his under the basket game. He doesnt have a quick first step, so having someone off balance will help him get past them and to the rim. Even if he shoots like 37% from 3, he doesn't have a quick enough step to be able to get to the rim before average defences/rim protectors could easily rotate.

If he was quicker like RJ I'd say yeah, 3 is probably his best bet, but he's not athletic in the same sense.

[Scizzup]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

Not just to you, but to everyone critiqing barnes.

'Barnes needs to do this, Barnes should do that'

How do we know what his ultimate ceiling is if we don't let him at least try to expand what he's known for.

This is a large gripe I have with this fand base.

"We need Barnes to shoot 3s but less mid range shots"

"No we need Barnes to score more at the rim, more mid range, limit his 3s"

"no, score more at the rim, more 2s, less mid range"

"no ....etc"


Can we wait at least 30 games or so before we say what Barnes should or shouldn't do?

The guy worked on his game, worked on his moves, both inside and outside the 3 point line, let's just get a good sample size before we tell him what he needs to do.

I said to wait for his shot profile to normalize before judging due to sample size. But you can also look at a player strength and want him to play more to it. I didn't say he should not shoot a particular shot at all.

Shots at rim are most efficient, why would you want him to take fewer shots at the rim for shots that will likely end up in the pull up variety (which he has been meh to bad). If Scottie shows he can make these shots at a higher clip over a larger sample then sure go ahead.

The end goal for both of us is ways for Scottie to be better than league average TS%. I don't care how he does it.

[Vampirate]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

Not just to you, but to everyone critiqing barnes.

'Barnes needs to do this, Barnes should do that'

How do we know what his ultimate ceiling is if we don't let him at least try to expand what he's known for.

This is a large gripe I have with this fand base.

"We need Barnes to shoot 3s but less mid range shots"

"No we need Barnes to score more at the rim, more mid range, limit his 3s"

"no, score more at the rim, more 2s, less mid range"

"no ....etc"


Can we wait at least 30 games or so before we say what Barnes should or shouldn't do?

The guy worked on his game, worked on his moves, both inside and outside the 3 point line, let's just get a good sample size before we tell him what he needs to do.

I said to wait for his shot profile to normalize before judging due to sample size. But you can also look at a player strength and want him to play more to it. I didn't say he should not shoot a particular shot at all.

Shots at rim are most efficient, why would you want him to take fewer shots at the rim for shots that will likely end up in the pull up variety (which he has been meh to bad). If Scottie shows he can make these shots at a higher clip over a larger sample then sure go ahead.

The end goal for both of us is ways for Scottie to be better than league average TS%. I don't care how he does it.

Against the likes of Indiana, sure destroy them at the rim, who's going to stop you, however it's when he runs into a team of Allen + Mobley that's the issue.

What works against the Pacers, won't work against the Cavs.

Ideally he should have something of a 15% (0-3 ft)/20% (3-10 ft)/20% (10-16 ft)/15% (16-3P ft)/30% (3P ft) split in his prime.

Unless you're Giannis you won't get most of your points at 0-3 feet.

[Scizzup]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

I think he still needs to prioritize mids over 3's, not so much that he forgoes 3's but much like RJ, the 3's should be controlled and limited to high quality shots. Realistically you won't see 7+ of those a night, so I'd rather we limit it to aiming for 5 quality 3's and the remainder goes into his mid range game.

He just needs to be passable as a 3p shooter to keep defences honest, perfecting a mid range game is "easier" as it's a shorter shot, and would have a bigger impact opening up his under the basket game. He doesnt have a quick first step, so having someone off balance will help him get past them and to the rim. Even if he shoots like 37% from 3, he doesn't have a quick enough step to be able to get to the rim before average defences/rim protectors could easily rotate.

If he was quicker like RJ I'd say yeah, 3 is probably his best bet, but he's not athletic in the same sense.

I agree he has to work closer to the basket and I get your point generally but I think .300 3PAr is about fine. The reason I prefer 3's to middies for him is because he is not a dominant paint scorer (volume wise), and I want him to take more % of the most efficient shots in basketball (rim shots or 3's). He is also likely to get more c&S opportunities from 3 (when IQ is back at least). This don't mean I don't want him to shoot middies at all btw. i am also fine with him trading some of 3's for shots at rim if possible.

at the end of the day we both want him to be more efficient so I think either way he goes about accomplishing it is fine.

[Scizzup]

Not just to you, but to everyone critiqing barnes.

'Barnes needs to do this, Barnes should do that'

How do we know what his ultimate ceiling is if we don't let him at least try to expand what he's known for.

This is a large gripe I have with this fand base.

"We need Barnes to shoot 3s but less mid range shots"

"No we need Barnes to score more at the rim, more mid range, limit his 3s"

"no, score more at the rim, more 2s, less mid range"

"no ....etc"


Can we wait at least 30 games or so before we say what Barnes should or shouldn't do?

The guy worked on his game, worked on his moves, both inside and outside the 3 point line, let's just get a good sample size before we tell him what he needs to do.

I said to wait for his shot profile to normalize before judging due to sample size. But you can also look at a player strength and want him to play more to it. I didn't say he should not shoot a particular shot at all.

Shots at rim are most efficient, why would you want him to take fewer shots at the rim for shots that will likely end up in the pull up variety (which he has been meh to bad). If Scottie shows he can make these shots at a higher clip over a larger sample then sure go ahead.

The end goal for both of us is ways for Scottie to be better than league average TS%. I don't care how he does it.

Against the likes of Indiana, sure destroy them at the rim, who's going to stop you, however it's when he runs into a team of Allen + Mobley that's the issue.

What works against the Pacers, won't work against the Cavs.

Ideally he should have something of a 15% (0-3 ft)/20% (3-10 ft)/20% (10-16 ft)/15% (16-3P ft)/30% (3P ft) split in his prime.

Unless you're Giannis you won't get most of your points at 0-3 feet.

It's average for a reason man. Some games you will dominate the rim, some games you won't. I am not saying he should have same shot profile every game lol.

See, if Scottie has that shot distribution you listed, he likely won't be more than a league average TS% guy then. That is tweaked version of post injury KD. You need to be a very good shooter. 6'7 230lbs forward he has to be taking closer to 25% of his shot 0-3 feet. A reason Tatum been more efficient last 3 seasons even though his 3's been up and down is because he became a better finisher.

[Vampirate]

I said to wait for his shot profile to normalize before judging due to sample size. But you can also look at a player strength and want him to play more to it. I didn't say he should not shoot a particular shot at all.

Shots at rim are most efficient, why would you want him to take fewer shots at the rim for shots that will likely end up in the pull up variety (which he has been meh to bad). If Scottie shows he can make these shots at a higher clip over a larger sample then sure go ahead.

The end goal for both of us is ways for Scottie to be better than league average TS%. I don't care how he does it.

Against the likes of Indiana, sure destroy them at the rim, who's going to stop you, however it's when he runs into a team of Allen + Mobley that's the issue.

What works against the Pacers, won't work against the Cavs.

Ideally he should have something of a 15% (0-3 ft)/20% (3-10 ft)/20% (10-16 ft)/15% (16-3P ft)/30% (3P ft) split in his prime.

Unless you're Giannis you won't get most of your points at 0-3 feet.

It's average for a reason man. Some games you will dominate the rim, some games you won't. I am not saying he should have same shot profile every game lol.

See, if Scottie has that shot distribution you listed, he likely won't be more than a league average TS% guy then. That is tweaked version of post injury KD. 6'7 230lbs forward he has to be taking closer to 25% of his shot 0-3 feet. A reason Tatum been more efficient last 3 seasons even though his 3's been up and down is because he became a better finisher.

I disagree on this (also Barnes bread and butter isn't at the rim, it's 3-10 feet, and always been that area).

I also hope that his shooting from 10-16 feet .540 atm, isn't a fluke and there's something there.

He's shooting .730/.500./.540 from 0-16 feet overall right now, So maybe he extended his range out to the FT line (I hope).

[Scase]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

I think he still needs to prioritize mids over 3's, not so much that he forgoes 3's but much like RJ, the 3's should be controlled and limited to high quality shots. Realistically you won't see 7+ of those a night, so I'd rather we limit it to aiming for 5 quality 3's and the remainder goes into his mid range game.

He just needs to be passable as a 3p shooter to keep defences honest, perfecting a mid range game is "easier" as it's a shorter shot, and would have a bigger impact opening up his under the basket game. He doesnt have a quick first step, so having someone off balance will help him get past them and to the rim. Even if he shoots like 37% from 3, he doesn't have a quick enough step to be able to get to the rim before average defences/rim protectors could easily rotate.

If he was quicker like RJ I'd say yeah, 3 is probably his best bet, but he's not athletic in the same sense.

I agree he has to work closer to the basket and I get your point generally but I think .300 3PAr is about fine. The reason I prefer 3's to middies for him is because he is not a dominant paint scorer (volume wise), and I want him to take more % of the most efficient shots in basketball (rim shots or 3's). He is also likely to get more c&S opportunities from 3 (when IQ is back at least). This don't mean I don't want him to shoot middies at all btw. i am also fine with him trading some of 3's for shots at rim if possible.

at the end of the day we both want him to be more efficient so I think either way he goes about accomplishing it is fine.

Absolutely, I don't have a horse in the race with 3's vs mid vs basket shots, I just want him to take whatever is the most efficient option. If he starts smoking 3's at a 40% clip, idgaf about mid range shots. But realistically, that's not gonna happen, and I think mids are his best bet for now.

I'm fine with the 3pt experiment to see how it goes, someone needs to slap him in the back of the head any time he dribbles down the court and takes a pull up 3 with like 15 on the clock though lol

[Scizzup]

Against the likes of Indiana, sure destroy them at the rim, who's going to stop you, however it's when he runs into a team of Allen + Mobley that's the issue.

What works against the Pacers, won't work against the Cavs.

Ideally he should have something of a 15% (0-3 ft)/20% (3-10 ft)/20% (10-16 ft)/15% (16-3P ft)/30% (3P ft) split in his prime.

Unless you're Giannis you won't get most of your points at 0-3 feet.

It's average for a reason man. Some games you will dominate the rim, some games you won't. I am not saying he should have same shot profile every game lol.

See, if Scottie has that shot distribution you listed, he likely won't be more than a league average TS% guy then. That is tweaked version of post injury KD. 6'7 230lbs forward he has to be taking closer to 25% of his shot 0-3 feet. A reason Tatum been more efficient last 3 seasons even though his 3's been up and down is because he became a better finisher.

I disagree on this (also Barnes bread and butter isn't at the rim, it's 3-10 feet, and always been that area).

I also hope that his shooting from 10-16 feet .540 atm, isn't a fluke and there's something there.

He's shooting .730/.500./.540 from 0-16 feet overall right now, So maybe he extended his range out to the FT line (I hope).

If Scottie is going to be a +2 rTS level player he can't have that shot distribution you listed unless he turns into a very good shooter.

That number you quoted won't hold and it''s small sample. But lets say it holds close .470 and .470 (career best for him and elite #'s). Scottie would have to be shooting 36% on similar attempts from 3's to be better than 58% TS. Right around league average TS%. What happens if his freethrow rate drops more because of less shots at the rim?


Ex; Ant Edwards is shooting 42% on 11 3's a game (very elite). But because he is only taking 16% of his shots at the rim + finishing worse and he doesn't get to the line as much anymore he is only at .59% TS.

[Vampirate]

It's average for a reason man. Some games you will dominate the rim, some games you won't. I am not saying he should have same shot profile every game lol.

See, if Scottie has that shot distribution you listed, he likely won't be more than a league average TS% guy then. That is tweaked version of post injury KD. 6'7 230lbs forward he has to be taking closer to 25% of his shot 0-3 feet. A reason Tatum been more efficient last 3 seasons even though his 3's been up and down is because he became a better finisher.

I disagree on this (also Barnes bread and butter isn't at the rim, it's 3-10 feet, and always been that area).

I also hope that his shooting from 10-16 feet .540 atm, isn't a fluke and there's something there.

He's shooting .730/.500./.540 from 0-16 feet overall right now, So maybe he extended his range out to the FT line (I hope).

If Scottie is going to be a +2 rTS level player he can't have that shot distribution you listed unless he turns into a very good shooter.

That number you quoted won't hold and it''s small sample. But lets say it holds close .470 and .470 (career best for him and elite #'s). Scottie would have to be shooting 36% on similar attempts from 3's on current attempts to be better than 58% TS. Right around league average TS%. What happens if his freethrow rate drops more because of less shots at the rim?


Ex; Ant Edwards is shooting 42% on 11 3's a game (very elite). But because he is only taking 16% of his shots at the rim
and he doesn't get to the line as much anymore he is only at .59% TS.

What Barnes really needs to learn is baiting the defence into fouling him, and tbh it's a skill.

If his 2P pull ups remain a threat, he could leverage that into getting fouled. Just fake a pull up and get the defender in the air.

[Shwaguy]

Scottie's Shot diet is skewing more to outside shots because IQ has been out all year. He's barely had any time playing SF/PF this year.

[bonjovi0308]

Scottie has only played 11 games so its probably better to wait a little regarding his shot profile.

But, yea you don't want him to sacrifice shots at the rim for worse shots for him. Right now he is at career low at shots at the rim that won't help his efficiency. I am fine with .300 3PAr, think you have to be around there in today nba unless you are a Giannis/Shai or a big.

He should give up the middies for more shots at rim/paint. Even if he is shooting 33% from 3 that will be more efficient than what he is able to produce from midrange over 82 games.

Not just to you, but to everyone critiqing barnes.

'Barnes needs to do this, Barnes should do that'

How do we know what his ultimate ceiling is if we don't let him at least try to expand what he's known for.

This is a large gripe I have with this fand base.

"We need Barnes to shoot 3s but less mid range shots"

"No we need Barnes to score more at the rim, more mid range, limit his 3s"

"no, score more at the rim, more 2s, less mid range"

"no ....etc"


Can we wait at least 30 games or so before we say what Barnes should or shouldn't do?

The guy worked on his game, worked on his moves, both inside and outside the 3 point line, let's just get a good sample size before we tell him what he needs to do.

Average fans think they know more on how to develop a NBA player than Darko and Masai do

[HiJiNX]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

[DG88]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

I see the same thing on Raptors reddit. It's funny to me, because when a player expands his game it take a few years for it to manifest fully. You're going to have bumps in the road as they develop those aspects of their game.