Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[ConSarnit]

At this point I’d say the path should be pretty clear (assuming we are trying to win next year). Hope for continued defensive improvement from Barnes and reduce his scoring volume to get him to league average-ish efficiency. Let him continue or figure things out offensively (on a smaller scale than this year) and hope it all comes together.

Barring some major shooting improvement we’re going to have to reduce Barnes scoring role next season if we want to be a good team. There’s nothing really wrong with that if he keeps making defensive strides but the hope for him to be a #1/2 option is quickly slipping away. We just have to make him worth his contract and that’s not unrealistic imo. If he’s an all-D, 16/9/6 guy on 58 TS% we’ll be doing ok.

[tsherkin]

Scottie is a supercharged Aaron Gordon comparing their first 4 years.

They're very different players.

Gordon has embraced his role as a complementary piece and shoots 3s primarily from the corner. The vast majority of what he does is action based off of others. He also has athletic tools which Scottie does not. I think it's probably rough to compare the two because they're underlying tools and their deployment are so different. It's like comparing Jamal Shead to Shaq as a post player, in some ways. That's a hyperbolic example, but I think you take my meaning. It's not fair to Scottie to compare directly in this way, because their usage details are so very different and Gordon is a lot more athletic.

And despite those things, he can post 20-8-6 AND he is a positive player despite being inefficient. And we HAVE seen him take over 4th Q's in many games despite his limitations.

I liked a lot of what you said, but we shouldn't be mentioning 20 ppg as if it's a good thing. He hasn't been a good scorer while getting 20 ppg, and funneling shots to almost anyone will create volume if you don't care about the efficacy of those possessions. Scottie's good, but we should be focusing more on the 8 and 6, and his defense, than the 20.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Sure, if we want to keep losing, we could force-feed him enough possessions to reach 25 ppg, but that would be a horrifically bad misuse of our resources. Even if he started to scale back his volume from 3 and focused more on getting to the rim, we already know he'd still be sub-par in efficiency, because we've seen that from him already for several years. 25 ppg is for guys who can leverage strong traits and skills. It isn't a worthwhile benchmark just because.

[ArthurVandelay]

Scottie is a supercharged Aaron Gordon comparing their first 4 years.

They're very different players.

Gordon has embraced his role as a complementary piece and shoots 3s primarily from the corner. The vast majority of what he does is action based off of others. He also has athletic tools which Scottie does not. I think it's probably rough to compare the two because they're underlying tools and their deployment are so different. It's like comparing Jamal Shead to Shaq as a post player, in some ways. That's a hyperbolic example, but I think you take my meaning. It's not fair to Scottie to compare directly in this way, because their usage details are so very different and Gordon is a lot more athletic.

And despite those things, he can post 20-8-6 AND he is a positive player despite being inefficient. And we HAVE seen him take over 4th Q's in many games despite his limitations.

I liked a lot of what you said, but we shouldn't be mentioning 20 ppg as if it's a good thing. He hasn't been a good scorer while getting 20 ppg, and funneling shots to almost anyone will create volume if you don't care about the efficacy of those possessions. Scottie's good, but we should be focusing more on the 8 and 6, and his defense, than the 20.

He could get to 25 a game in the high octane era.

If you look at RJ's shooting stats and compare them to Scotties, you can see Scottie is the much better shooter from the mid range. That should extend to better numbers next year. Barnes shot the least amount from 0-3 ft. in his career this year, so there was a degree of experimentation going on.

Sure, if we want to keep losing, we could force-feed him enough possessions to reach 25 ppg, but that would be a horrifically bad misuse of our resources. Even if he started to scale back his volume from 3 and focused more on getting to the rim, we already know he'd still be sub-par in efficiency, because we've seen that from him already for several years. 25 ppg is for guys who can leverage strong traits and skills. It isn't a worthwhile benchmark just because.

You should stop taking one sentence snippets of people’s quotes to make your point while totally ignoring the context said comment was made and its place in the conversation.

Also, you totally ignored the part where the comparison of Scottie to Gordon was Gordon’s FIRST 4 YEARS….in Orlando as a #4 overall pick, not in Denver playing a supporting role with one of greatest ever.

[tsherkin]

You should stop taking one sentence snippets of people’s quotes to make your point while totally ignoring the context said comment was made and its place in the conversation.

I didn't.

Also, you totally ignored the part where the comparison of Scottie to Gordon was Gordon’s FIRST 4 YEARS….in Orlando as a #4 overall pick, not in Denver playing a supporting role with one of greatest ever.

No, I didn't. My point was precisely that Gordon has more support in Denver than Scottie does in Toronto and that their contexts are very different. Yes, in Orlando, Gordon's skillset was insufficient for handling the role which Scottie manages now. I wasn't critiquing Scottie based on Gordon, I was noting that Gordon is afforded a very different role which plays well with his superior athleticism and working off passing from others.

[ArthurVandelay]

You should stop taking one sentence snippets of people’s quotes to make your point while totally ignoring the context said comment was made and its place in the conversation.

I didn't.

Also, you totally ignored the part where the comparison of Scottie to Gordon was Gordon’s FIRST 4 YEARS….in Orlando as a #4 overall pick, not in Denver playing a supporting role with one of greatest ever.

No, I didn't. My point was precisely that Gordon has more support in Denver than Scottie does in Toronto and that their contexts are very different. Yes, in Orlando, Gordon's skillset was insufficient for handling the role which Scottie manages now. I wasn't critiquing Scottie based on Gordon, I was noting that Gordon is afforded a very different role which plays well with his superior athleticism and working off passing from others.

But no one is talking about Scottie vs Gordon in Denver. That’s all you.

Also the entirety of my post made clear I didn’t think the Gordon parallels were all that good to begin with beyond rebounding and eFG. Scottie is a far superior player than Gordon was in Orlando.

My post also ended with the reality: Scottie is not a finished player. His game will continue to evolve and his role will change to maximize winning. That is what all this Scottie bashing neglects: how he’s been used the last 2 seasons is not going to continue moving forward. His shot diet will be adjusted. He’ll be put in positions that ensure he shines and the team has the best opportunity to win.

[tsherkin]

Also the entirety of my post made clear I didn’t think the Gordon parallels were all that good to begin with beyond rebounding and eFG. Scottie is a far superior player than Gordon was in Orlando.

He's a better defender, sure. Gordon needed a different usage plan, but Orlando was definitely misusing him and asking him to reach beyond his ability. Which is a lot like what we're doing with Scottie, sure.

My post also ended with the reality: Scottie is not a finished player. His game will continue to evolve and his role will change to maximize winning. That is what all this Scottie bashing neglects: how he’s been used the last 2 seasons is not going to continue moving forward. His shot diet will be adjusted. He’ll be put in positions that ensure he shines and the team has the best opportunity to win.

Scottie's not finished, sure. And I'm quite hopeful that as we realize his limitations and ceiling in certain respects, we will pivot to supporting him in more effective sets.

I very much hope that his shot diet will be adjusted, and I suspect he'll look different when it does. I've said this before, many times, it's an area where we definitely agree.

[djsunyc]

25-30 more pages before one of y'all are ok not having the last word?

[ArthurVandelay]

Also the entirety of my post made clear I didn’t think the Gordon parallels were all that good to begin with beyond rebounding and eFG. Scottie is a far superior player than Gordon was in Orlando.

He's a better defender, sure. Gordon needed a different usage plan, but Orlando was definitely misusing him and asking him to reach beyond his ability. Which is a lot like what we're doing with Scottie, sure.

My post also ended with the reality: Scottie is not a finished player. His game will continue to evolve and his role will change to maximize winning. That is what all this Scottie bashing neglects: how he’s been used the last 2 seasons is not going to continue moving forward. His shot diet will be adjusted. He’ll be put in positions that ensure he shines and the team has the best opportunity to win.

Scottie's not finished, sure. And I'm quite hopeful that as we realize his limitations and ceiling in certain respects, we will pivot to supporting him in more effective sets.

I very much hope that his shot diet will be adjusted, and I suspect he'll look different when it does. I've said this before, many times, it's an area where we definitely agree.

Scottie >>>Orlando Gordon, sure, yeah sure, we definitely agree. Sure.

[MEDIC]

.For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Scottie has always been that guy. Highschool, College. He was always the good unselfish teammate that liked to pass.

He was never the Alpha Dog scorer. I still think he is a winning player though & can be super valuable.on a playoff contender.

Do I think he has the talent & potential to be more than that?.I do.

Sometimes player just are who they are though & that's who they want to be.

[tsherkin]

.For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Scottie has always been that guy. Highschool, College. He was always the good unselfish teammate that liked to pass.

He was never the Alpha Dog scorer. I still think he is a winning player though & can be super valuable.on a playoff contender.

Do I think he has the talent & potential to be more than that?.I do.

Sometimes player just are who they are though & that's who they want to be.

Scottie's definitely not the main guy; he's 100% the dude who will look better next to a real focal point. At no point was he ever projected as a major scoring threat. His scouting report was always defense, rebounding and passing. That's totally a winning player if you don't overextend him as an on-ball guy, for sure. And like, immediately, if we move him to stop shooting ATB 3s, he's shot 35%+ from the corners in 3 of his 4 seasons. That's bad relative to league average from the corners, but for him, it would be a material boost to his efficiency right away. We could really use 35% from 3 out of Scottie as a way to help bolster the efficacy of his threat, for sure.

[Thaddy]

.For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Scottie has always been that guy. Highschool, College. He was always the good unselfish teammate that liked to pass.

He was never the Alpha Dog scorer. I still think he is a winning player though & can be super valuable.on a playoff contender.

Do I think he has the talent & potential to be more than that?.I do.

Sometimes player just are who they are though & that's who they want to be.

Scottie's definitely not the main guy; he's 100% the dude who will look better next to a real focal point. At no point was he ever projected as a major scoring threat. His scouting report was always defense, rebounding and passing. That's totally a winning player if you don't overextend him as an on-ball guy, for sure. And like, immediately, if we move him to stop shooting ATB 3s, he's shot 35%+ from the corners in 3 of his 4 seasons. That's bad relative to league average from the corners, but for him, it would be a material boost to his efficiency right away. We could really use 35% from 3 out of Scottie as a way to help bolster the efficacy of his threat, for sure.

I don't see him being a league average shooter in his career. He's been around the same for years now. The better hope would be for his handle to improve, it would take advantage of his size and help get to the rim, draw fouls, push the ball in transition.

[EastonEddy]

.For those that say Scottie is more valuable in a winning environment, what I have to ask is shouldn't Scottie be the reason we're winning games? Or is he a type of player who excels next to a star?

Scottie has always been that guy. Highschool, College. He was always the good unselfish teammate that liked to pass.

He was never the Alpha Dog scorer. I still think he is a winning player though & can be super valuable.on a playoff contender.

Do I think he has the talent & potential to be more than that?.I do.

Sometimes player just are who they are though & that's who they want to be.

He doesn't have the talent to be more than he is. It's a common misconception with Scottie. It's not his attitude/mentality holding him back he's just not that good.

[tsherkin]

[
I don't see him being a league average shooter in his career. He's been around the same for years now. The better hope would be for his handle to improve, it would take advantage of his size and help get to the rim, draw fouls, push the ball in transition.

It's all context, right?

I don't think his handle is the issue. He gets pretty deep in the paint on the regular. I think his issue is what he needs to do at the end. It would be better if he got to the rim more, but we'll see what happens with some better spacing and maybe some re-shaped playtype distribution. He isn't going to be, you know, Russell Westbrook, bashing shots at the rim on over 31% of his FGAs even at 36, right? He doesn't have that sort of mobility, and handle will take you only so far, as well.

As you say, he's been around the same for years now. But if we are to look at this, there are some things changing about the team next year. Ostensibly, we can look forward to a LITTLE bit better health, and we have BI incoming. That should materially change some things about how we have to use Scottie, and indeed, even just the aim towards trying to win instead of tanking should alter what we think is acceptable in-season as far as experimentation.

If we were able to turn Scottie into a corner 3pt shooter, slice off 2 or 3 total FGA/g and get his shot selection set up with a little more transition action and a little more of him being the roll man in the PnR and otherwise cutting off-ball, it isn't THAT hard to see him reaching league-average efficiency on like 17 ppg.

[mdenny]

It IS ironic that the common spin now is that scotty needs to be a complimentary player when only a year ago it was the same ppl saying that siakam was holding him back.

When he had a chance to be the complimentary player everyone was saying he needed to be "given the keys".

So there's a healthy amount of flip-flopping going on here.

I think the issue is much more....scotty is not good enough to build around. So you don't worry about looking for a player that "compliments him". He's a very good player. Not a guy to build around.

I don't see anyone talking about who we should get that will compliment Ingram. And Ingram looked ALOT more promising than scotty does going into his 5th season.

[Indeed]

You should stop taking one sentence snippets of people’s quotes to make your point while totally ignoring the context said comment was made and its place in the conversation.

I didn't.

Also, you totally ignored the part where the comparison of Scottie to Gordon was Gordon’s FIRST 4 YEARS….in Orlando as a #4 overall pick, not in Denver playing a supporting role with one of greatest ever.

No, I didn't. My point was precisely that Gordon has more support in Denver than Scottie does in Toronto and that their contexts are very different. Yes, in Orlando, Gordon's skillset was insufficient for handling the role which Scottie manages now. I wasn't critiquing Scottie based on Gordon, I was noting that Gordon is afforded a very different role which plays well with his superior athleticism and working off passing from others.

But no one is talking about Scottie vs Gordon in Denver. That’s all you.

Also the entirety of my post made clear I didn’t think the Gordon parallels were all that good to begin with beyond rebounding and eFG. Scottie is a far superior player than Gordon was in Orlando.

My post also ended with the reality: Scottie is not a finished player. His game will continue to evolve and his role will change to maximize winning. That is what all this Scottie bashing neglects: how he’s been used the last 2 seasons is not going to continue moving forward. His shot diet will be adjusted. He’ll be put in positions that ensure he shines and the team has the best opportunity to win.

The bashing has been about how people claim how he's been used the last 2 seasons need to move backward (not forward) to his first 2 seasons where the damage were done against VanVleet and Siakam. We are still bashing Barrett on his defense and fit, and probably Ingram next year.

[tsherkin]

It IS ironic that the common spin now is that scotty needs to be a complimentary player when only a year ago it was the same ppl saying that siakam was holding him back.

When he had a chance to be the complimentary player everyone was saying he needed to be "given the keys".

So there's a healthy amount of flip-flopping going on here.

I think the issue is much more....scotty is not good enough to build around. So you don't worry about looking for a player that "compliments him". He's a very good player. Not a guy to build around.

Agreed.

I don't see anyone talking about who we should get that will compliment Ingram. And Ingram looked ALOT more promising than scotty does going into his 5th season.

Well, the hope is that we have some guys who will complement Ingram already, knowing in advance that he isn't a title-worthy focal player to begin with. So we temper our expectations and just look for him to be who he has been, and as healthy as possible, so we can just enjoy more seasons like the Lowry/DDR years.

The bashing has been about how people claim how he's been used the last 2 seasons need to move backward (not forward) to his first 2 seasons where the damage were done against VanVleet and Siakam. We are still bashing Barrett on his defense and fit, and probably Ingram next year.

Barrett's defense has been better this year, though. I've seen a reasonable amount of compliments over that subject across the year. And he seems to fit fine, at least to me. Can hit the corner 3 on the right side, is a capable off-ball slasher. Has been passing really well. He struggles at the line, which is his main impediment and one worth considering because he's still not an efficient player (and certainly nothing like he was immediately after the trade), but there's some promise there. Enough to at least see how the season begins for him.

I'm sure Ingram will be the focus for a lot of chirping about his health, and likely about his efficiency, too. Folks eventually get grumbly once the baseline has been set and an impediment is located, I guess. I for one will try to be more mindful of this as we move forward through the Ingram era, however long that lasts. Crap seasons like this one do reshape your perspective as to what counts as a worthwhile season, hah!

[MEDIC]

I think the issue is much more....scotty is not good enough to build around. So you don't worry about looking for a player that "compliments him". He's a very good player. Not a guy to build around.

I don't see anyone talking about who we should get that will compliment Ingram. And Ingram looked ALOT more promising than scotty does going into his 5th season.

I think the Ingram play by management was to find a player that complimented Scottie (a scorer). It was a gamble and a low risk move with potentially high reward.

I also think Scottie is a player that compliments Ingram. He does things that aren't Ingram's strengths. Ingram does things that aren't Scottie's strengths.

The nice thing is both players are essentially jumbo SF's. If they are playing a tough matchup at the 3 or 4, Scottie can take that defensive assignment. Ingram doesn't have to.

Scottie is a much better defender and facilitator than Zion, so who knows........maybe the pairing works out really well because they don't necessarily have to "share the ball". I am very interested in seeing Scottie with the ball in his hands less, so he can focus on other things. (Defense, hunting mismatches on postups off the ball, setting screens, etc)

I think you can adjust the shor diet of both players to make things work. I have no doubt that Ingram will be taking a higher volume of 3's.

The good news is that both players are excellent facilitators & passers for their position. Each of them are a threat on ball to score & to make that pass to the open man.

[LoveMyRaps]

For me, my biggest concern of him is his shot selection. I believe this is a relatively easy fix.

If he sticks to his strengths - turnaround mid range jumpers, post-ups, etc. - he can easily average over 20ppg on higher efficiency.

I've noticed when he starts the game w/ 2pt attempts, he has a higher probability of knocking down his 3pt attempts as the game goes on.

But there were several games where he would just start jacking up 3s right off the bat and then freeze himself out for the rest of the game.

Point being, he needs to start inside and work his way out.

20ppg on 55-60% TS is all I'm asking for from Scottie, because he's already a great defender and an improving playmaker.

My hope for him next year year is to give us at least 20ppg | 8rpg | 7apg - 48/35/80 splits

[tsherkin]

For me, my biggest concern of him is his shot selection. I believe this is a relatively easy fix.

If he sticks to his strengths - turnaround mid range jumpers, post-ups, etc. - he can easily average over 20ppg on higher efficiency.

That doesn't seem to match with how his game actually goes, though.

Remember, he's average or worse in every zone, essentially. He's especially bad on ATB threes, but even cutting those out wouldn't help his raw efficiency reach much more than where he's already been in his career. It's worth remembering that he is only shooting so much more these past 2 seasons than his first two. Like, he's taken 12.6, 13.2, 15.7 and 16.4 FGA/g. 2.6, 2.9, 4.9 and 4.3 3PA/g along the way. He could replace a bunch of his 3s with short middies, and that wouldn't be bad at all. And he could get into the corner a little more from 3, which would also help.

What we need to do is get him to reduce his ATB 3s and get him working off-ball for better set-ups to his FGAs. And with Ingram inbound, that should be able to happen. I don't know that we should cling to the idea that he should be a 20+ ppg scorer, though. We have a lot of potential scorers on the team now. It would probably better to reduce his volume and focus on leveraging his playmaking a little more.

20ppg on 55-60% TS is all I'm asking for from Scottie, because he's already a great defender and an improving playmaker.

Basically, anything under 58% TS and we should be getting him to shoot less. We need to improve our offense, not hamstring it. Ingram is already inbound as a league-average-efficiency volume scorer. Scottie has more value setting up other guys than taking a firm grip on our volume scoring, and we should have less need of him to be a higher-volume scorer if we're any kind of healthy next season.

[tsherkin]

The nice thing is both players are essentially jumbo SF's. If they are playing a tough matchup at the 3 or 4, Scottie can take that defensive assignment. Ingram doesn't have to.

I do love the idea of letting Scottie get beat up a little more than BI, although these past two seasons, Scottie hasn't exactly been durable either. But if we can milk health out of Ingram by having Scottie take the more physical defensive matchup, that would be great.

I am very interested in seeing Scottie with the ball in his hands less, so he can focus on other things. (Defense, hunting mismatches on postups off the ball, setting screens, etc)

Absolutely. And I think having a guy like Ingram who can function as both playmaker and movement shooter will be a boon to how Scottie needs to play, to his assist output (and thus deflating Scottie's need to shoot), and may also help by having BI set Scottie up for some easier looks. That's one of the big keys here, because BI can run PnR and isolate to self-create and all that, it opens the door to Scottie getting some of the sets we run for RJ to help boost his FG%.