TWO: Tank World Order

[Kabatnaz]

This only proves you don't understand the context of the time. The Jays didn't blow other teams out of the water to sign those players. You don't financially destroy the Yankees and the Red Sox in a cap-less economic system lol.

Let me clue you in some more - it was way more inconceivable for baseball players to come to Toronto than it is for basketball players to come to Toronto. This was especially true for good old Texas guys like Clemens. It's not even close, given Toronto's urban appeal and the difference in demographics.

This is just wrong. The Jays rarely had any problems in getting players to play in Toronto. You might find one somewhere in the history books...but it is not even close to what the perception in the NBA is to playing in Toronto. We are considered the Siberia of the NBA.
Since you mention dempgraphics, I would also argue that baseball players are culturally different and less inclined to be put off by bad Doritos, our currency, weird cable tv and the metric system.

Why? Because MLB is predominantly white while the NBA is predominantly black?

In this day and age of twitter, internets and global economies; winning is the most important driver as it has the greatest impact on the brand as a whole, that being the individual.

If Canada was such a Siberia to NBA players they would be looking at Drake as if he were a modern day Apache as opposed to relating to him.

http://youtu.be/_O3_EOmbpmI

I think you underestimate the importance of being a winning franchise versus perceived cultural differences. The last guy to complain about living in Canada is AD; which was close to 10 years ago and it was mostly his wife.

[OakleyDokely]

Unless MU plans on re-signing Lowry, there's no reason why he should still be on the team. If he isn't a long term piece moving forward, all he's doing his contributing to meaningless wins.

[sanity]

There is still the trade deadline. Anything can happen, and its also fairly obvious this team isn't a 50+ win team despite the efforts of some overlyoptimistic fanboys. I'm sure MU isn't saying to himself... "well, if we go 37-18 to close out the season we're almost as good as Indiana or Miami"

[TheTorontoGM]

Why? Because MLB is predominantly white while the NBA is predominantly black?

In this day and age of twitter, internets and global economies; winning is the most important driver as it has the greatest impact on the brand as a whole, that being the individual.

If Canada was such a Siberia to NBA players they would be looking at Drake as if he were a modern day Apache as opposed to relating to him.

http://youtu.be/_O3_EOmbpmI

I think you underestimate the importance of being a winning franchise versus perceived cultural differences. The last guy to complain about living in Canada is AD; which was close to 10 years ago and it was mostly his wife.

I am not suggesting a black/white being the issue. There are many black players in MLB.
More like educational and structural.

If the Raptors had a history of good management and team success than your arguements may have some merit. As it stands though - the reality is the team is a mess and free agents will not come here until they have a reason to come here. Just look at our free agent signing history...not pretty. Mostly overpaid for mediocre talent.
NBA requires star players for teams to be successful. We do not have any. The only way we get them is by draft(Damon, Camby, TMac, Vince, Bosh). We will NEVER get the top players we need unless we draft them or some GM goes full (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and gives one away in a trade.

[TheTorontoGM]

Do people honestly believe that no one would sign here if we were a winning team? You guys must not travel much.

I have travelled to most of the cities in the NBA(especially the southern warm ones) and thats why I now know that Toronto is way behind when it comes to the recruitment pitches.
Spend some time in LA, San Fran, Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Phoenix etc....and then ask yourself if you had a choice to make your millions and play a sport you love in the NBA - would you pick the Toronto Raptors over them?
Throw in the fact that the organization has been a train wreck and its a no brainer.

[Kabatnaz]

Why? Because MLB is predominantly white while the NBA is predominantly black?

In this day and age of twitter, internets and global economies; winning is the most important driver as it has the greatest impact on the brand as a whole, that being the individual.

If Canada was such a Siberia to NBA players they would be looking at Drake as if he were a modern day Apache as opposed to relating to him.

http://youtu.be/_O3_EOmbpmI

I think you underestimate the importance of being a winning franchise versus perceived cultural differences. The last guy to complain about living in Canada is AD; which was close to 10 years ago and it was mostly his wife.

I am not suggesting a black/white being the issue. There are many black players in MLB.
More like educational and structural.

If the Raptors had a history of good management and team success than your arguements may have some merit. As it stands though - the reality is the team is a mess and free agents will not come here until they have a reason to come here. Just look at our free agent signing history...not pretty. Mostly overpaid for mediocre talent.
NBA requires star players for teams to be successful. We do not have any. The only way we get them is by draft(Damon, Camby, TMac, Vince, Bosh). We will NEVER get the top players we need unless we draft them or some GM goes full (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and gives one away in a trade.

Educational vs structural? Are you implying that NBA players are uneducated? Still don't understand what you mean.....

We have superstar in JV. Considering his age and rate of improvement; he's special talent. I like to use SAS as an example. The ybuilt a FANTASTIC organization through good font office management, effective drafting in late rounds through scouting and planned player development. Yes, they did draft Tim Duncan; but they also drafted Parker and Manu at 57th OA.

There is no guarantee that a top 5 player in this draft is going to immediately make this team a 60+ win franchise and getting rid of talent to get raw talent isn't how you build a team.

[Kabatnaz]

Do people honestly believe that no one would sign here if we were a winning team? You guys must not travel much.

I have travelled to most of the cities in the NBA(especially the southern warm ones) and thats why I now know that Toronto is way behind when it comes to the recruitment pitches.
Spend some time in LA, San Fran, Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Phoenix etc....and then ask yourself if you had a choice to make your millions and play a sport you love in the NBA - would you pick the Toronto Raptors over them?
Throw in the fact that the organization has been a train wreck and its a no brainer.

I would agree with you if Sacramento, Clippers, Golden State and Atlanta weren't so God awful over the span of 20 years.

Boston is cold. Chicago is Cold. Utah is Cold. Denver is cold. New York is cold. New Jersey is cold. Philly is cold. Detroit is cold. Cleveland is cold. Indiana is cold. Milwaukee is cold.

You're cherry picking teams to try and prove an argument when there are just as many teams that disprove it.

Players want to win and the Raptors have been around long enough for players to know that of you're going to play in a cold weather city, toronto isn't a bad place to be..... Except the franchise has been terribly run the last 20 years.

[MikeM]

Do people honestly believe that no one would sign here if we were a winning team? You guys must not travel much.

I have travelled to most of the cities in the NBA(especially the southern warm ones) and thats why I now know that Toronto is way behind when it comes to the recruitment pitches.
Spend some time in LA, San Fran, Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Phoenix etc....and then ask yourself if you had a choice to make your millions and play a sport you love in the NBA - would you pick the Toronto Raptors over them?
Throw in the fact that the organization has been a train wreck and its a no brainer.

You just listed the warm cities in the NBA. San Antonio lol?

I'm not saying we're a destination but we're a clear step ahead of the WAS, MIL, CHA, CLE, MIN, NO, UTA, SAC, IND, MEM, DEN, OKC tier of cities in the NBA.

IMO we could be in the top 10 most attractive if we were winning.

[TheTorontoGM]

Educational vs structural? Are you implying that NBA players are uneducated? Still don't understand what you mean.....

We have superstar in JV. Considering his age and rate of improvement; he's special talent. I like to use SAS as an example. The ybuilt a FANTASTIC organization through good font office management, effective drafting in late rounds through scouting and planned player development. Yes, they did draft Tim Duncan; but they also drafted Parker and Manu at 57th OA.

There is no guarantee that a top 5 player in this draft is going to immediately make this team a 60+ win franchise and getting rid of talent to get raw talent isn't how you build a team.

Totally agree with all your points here.
JV was also a top draft pick...thats why we tankers want more of guys like him.
Spurs have done it right for as long as the Raptors have done it wrong.
For the record I want to keep Demar, JV and Ross as part of our rebuild process. Throw in one and hopefully two studs and we can watch this team blossom over the next 5 years.
Simple math shows you catch the big fish in the top 10 picks and the throw backs in the mid later part of the draft. Yes there are exceptions but for the most part that is the deal. We need a big fish.

[TheTorontoGM]

Do people honestly believe that no one would sign here if we were a winning team? You guys must not travel much.

I have travelled to most of the cities in the NBA(especially the southern warm ones) and thats why I now know that Toronto is way behind when it comes to the recruitment pitches.
Spend some time in LA, San Fran, Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Phoenix etc....and then ask yourself if you had a choice to make your millions and play a sport you love in the NBA - would you pick the Toronto Raptors over them?
Throw in the fact that the organization has been a train wreck and its a no brainer.

I would agree with you if Sacramento, Clippers, Golden State and Atlanta weren't so God awful over the span of 20 years.

Boston is cold. Chicago is Cold. Utah is Cold. Denver is cold. New York is cold. New Jersey is cold. Philly is cold. Detroit is cold. Cleveland is cold. Indiana is cold. Milwaukee is cold.

You're cherry picking teams to try and prove an argument when there are just as many teams that disprove it.

Players want to win and the Raptors have been around long enough for players to know that of you're going to play in a cold weather city, toronto isn't a bad place to be..... Except the franchise has been terribly run the last 20 years.

Mangement is the wild card. My point is that we are at a disadvantage to may cities on a geographical basis to start with, throw in bad management and you have a double whammy. As far as cold market goes we are still less desirable than Chicago, Boston, New York, Philly, Detroit etc...when it comes to NBA perception.
Don't get me wrong..Toronto is a great city but I am just making the point that we have serious disadvantages to many other teams in the league for a variety of reasons.
Its going to take a long time to change that and making it to the playoffs this year in the crap conference/divison we are in won't do it.
Look at Atlanta, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Charlotte - we are the much less American version of them.

[DJ_RnC]

While the Raptors have been playing great ball recently and have proven that they can actually win games with this core, a lot of people have gotten excited over this, while the true tWo members still stand their ground. To those who have jumped off the tank or are considering to do so, don't forget, this team has been RIDICULOUSLY lucky in terms of injuries.

1. Major contributors to Eastern Conference teams have been consistently getting injured (Melo, Beal are good recent examples), this makes things easier for the Raptors when they play several opponents.

2. Nobody on this roster has missed a significant amount of time (if any) due to injuries, Lowry who is usually injury prone is having a crazy season (contract year but still even that doesn't stop a player from being injury prone).

When teams currently facing injury issues get healthy and Lowry/Derozan/JV get injured, this team is going exactly where nobody wants it too, NO MANS LAND. Raptors have gotten lucky with their health and that is bound to change at one point, only more reasons to have a fire sale while the value is still high.

tWo for life!

[Kabatnaz]

Another tanking thread!!!

Yes!

Ibtl.

[UnderdogRaptors]

Two is done brother, give it up

[DJ_RnC]

Two is done brother, give it up

Even if tWo loses the battle this year, the war isn't over, we'll have a season with meaningless wins only to have tWo in effect down the stretch for several years. Best to just tank now as opposed to several number of years down the stretch.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Hulk Hogan, where art thou?

Don't tell me you are going back to the Red and Yellow now.

[Raps in 4]

Since tanking is off the table, I'd love nothing more than for this team to finish in 7-11 territory just so I can see TL and MU squirm in their seats. Our record right now is right up that alley, but they will just point to the seeding as a cop out.

Ideally they'd get the boot, but it's unlikely. I'd be content with them simply having to answer to the media.

[TorontoRapture]

Do people honestly believe that no one would sign here if we were a winning team? You guys must not travel much.

I have travelled to most of the cities in the NBA(especially the southern warm ones) and thats why I now know that Toronto is way behind when it comes to the recruitment pitches.
Spend some time in LA, San Fran, Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, Orlando, Phoenix etc....and then ask yourself if you had a choice to make your millions and play a sport you love in the NBA - would you pick the Toronto Raptors over them?
Throw in the fact that the organization has been a train wreck and its a no brainer.

Also throw in the fact that just over 47% of your pay will go to your agent, American taxes, Canadian taxes, and your permit to work/stay in Canada...if they don't cover the expense through over-paying you. Jalen Rose stated that fact. It's the reason Toronto often has to over-pay their free agent signings.

[UnderdogRaptors]

Since tanking is off t table, I'd love nothing more than for this team to finish in 7-11 territory just so I can see TL and MU squirm in their seats. Our record right now is right up that alley, but they will just point to the seeding as a cop out.

Ideally they'd get the boot, but it's unlikely. I'd be content with them simply having to answer to the media.

Too many tanking teams I doubt it happens just look at our division, blame the knicks and nets for our terrible tank

[UnderdogRaptors]

Two is done brother, give it up

Even if tWo loses the battle this year, the war isn't over, we'll have a season with meaningless wins only to have tWo in effect down the stretch for several years. Best to just tank now as opposed to several number of years down the stretch.

Seventh Woods 2018?

[Ell Curry]

Win 45 and a series then trade Derozan and Amir while their value is sky-high, then tank 2014-15 with Jonas V, our 18th-20th pick 1st rounder, the rookie (or 2015 picks) we get for Derozan and Amir playing huge minutes, and we go into the summer of 2015 with tons of cap space, a top 5 pick and some nice young assets.