Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[ATLTimekeeper]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

The answer is work on it in practice until it's at least better than the worst in the league.

Here's a question, entirely hypothetical but when the conversation started about 3s I pointed out he was shooting 7% on pull up 3s at 1.5 attempts a game. 20% would be an awful number for the league at similar volume. Let's say Scottie went an entire season shooting 0% from pull-up 3s at 1.5 attempts (0 is closer to 7 than it is to 20). Would you still support him taking that many attempts?

[tsherkin]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

This is definitely the year for experimentation. Probably doesn't make sense to have him taking 5, 6 threes per game at the moment, though. And since coming back from the eye injury, he's actually taking 7.1 and shooting just over 31%. That's a bit much. It would be better to see more pull-ups and post-ups and such from him. The other parts of his game look pretty good, although obviously his efficiency is still below average.

There's a bit of middle ground to be had. Essentially, we're having him Wembanyama out, and I don't love that. I do like a lot of the other things we're seeing out of him right now, though. He's doing plenty of good stuff. And that Indy game was good; they blow on D, but he was able to take advantage, which was a great start. It's still early in the year, and even inside that, he's missed a lot of games, so specific numbers don't really much yet. So we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think it inappropriate to react to some stuff, though. 3pt volume needs to simmer down a bit. He's still not shooting very well, so it would make more sense to shoot it a little less unless he's having a hot night, and focus on developing other stuff, at least IMHO.

[manjusaka]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

This is definitely the year for experimentation. Probably doesn't make sense to have him taking 5, 6 threes per game at the moment, though. And since coming back from the eye injury, he's actually taking 7.1 and shooting just over 31%. That's a bit much. It would be better to see more pull-ups and post-ups and such from him. The other parts of his game look pretty good, although obviously his efficiency is still below average.

There's a bit of middle ground to be had. Essentially, we're having him Wembanyama out, and I don't love that. I do like a lot of the other things we're seeing out of him right now, though. He's doing plenty of good stuff. And that Indy game was good; they blow on D, but he was able to take advantage, which was a great start. It's still early in the year, and even inside that, he's missed a lot of games, so specific numbers don't really much yet. So we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think it inappropriate to react to some stuff, though. 3pt volume needs to simmer down a bit. He's still not shooting very well, so it would make more sense to shoot it a little less unless he's having a hot night, and focus on developing other stuff, at least IMHO.

This is exactly why he should shoot even more this year, because shooting in practice and in game action are 2 different animals. This year to get some reps and expand his game. Even his efficiency sux, he should keep shooting.

[ATLTimekeeper]

If only Russell Westbrook had been told to shoot more early clock step back 3s when he was 23...

I think I would prefer it if Scottie was held accountable to a ratio, like a 2:1 drive to 3PA, so that he remains aggressively looking at the rim. He's starting to creep up there in drives per game, which was always a big weakness of his as a guy that wanted the ball. I'd rather he get stripped than chuck a 3.

[tsherkin]

This is exactly why he should shoot even more this year, because shooting in practice and in game action are 2 different animals. This year to get some reps and expand his game. Even his efficiency sux, he should keep shooting.

I disagree with that premise about 3s. He can practice catch-and-shoots and pull-ups all day in practice and by himself. And I'm not advocating for him never to take threes. I think 3-4 would be pretty reasonable, but he's near twice that and he still blows at it. I think his time would be better spent on stuff which does require live-game practice, like his middle game. That way, he's getting some balanced live-ball development.

The three is a very fickle shot; even the very best run hot and cold on it. But a good pull-up would be considerably higher-percentage and would help open up other doors. And the setup on those shots is much more challenging than the open 3s which Scottie takes.

[tsherkin]

If only Russell Westbrook had been told to shoot more early clock step back 3s when he was 23...

I think I would prefer it if Scottie was held accountable to a ratio, like a 2:1 drive to 3PA, so that he remains aggressively looking at the rim. He's starting to creep up there in drives per game, which was always a big weakness of his as a guy that wanted the ball. I'd rather he get stripped than chuck a 3.

And also that.

[manjusaka]

This is exactly why he should shoot even more this year, because shooting in practice and in game action are 2 different animals. This year to get some reps and expand his game. Even his efficiency sux, he should keep shooting.

I disagree with that premise about 3s. He can practice catch-and-shoots and pull-ups all day in practice and by himself. And I'm not advocating for him never to take threes. I think 3-4 would be pretty reasonable, but he's near twice that and he still blows at it. I think his time would be better spent on stuff which does require live-game practice, like his middle game. That way, he's getting some balanced live-ball development.

The three is a very fickle shot; even the very best run hot and cold on it. But a good pull-up would be considerably higher-percentage and would help open up other doors. And the setup on those shots is much more challenging than the open 3s which Scottie takes.

He should take it whenever he is open, if he doesn’t his defender can just cheat on him. This is a different era, he needs the 3 if he wants to be a guard. His mindset isn’t a power forward like Giannis.

[tsherkin]

He should take it whenever he is open, if he doesn’t his defender can just cheat on him. This is a different era, he needs the 3 if he wants to be a guard. His mindset isn’t a power forward like Giannis.

If he's wide open on ball reversal, sure. But he should be looking to take screens to get closer to the bucket and work from there. That does much more for the team than letting fly a shot we won't rebound when he misses.

[adhir]

Does anybody here worry about his motivation? It seems as though he does tend to coast games - but when there is something he is trying to prove (i.e. against Pascal) - the motivation kicks in and we see what he could be. But it isnt consistent?

[Tripod]

Does anybody here worry about his motivation? It seems as though he does tend to coast games - but when there is something he is trying to prove (i.e. against Pascal) - the motivation kicks in and we see what he could be. But it isnt consistent?

Not one bit

[manjusaka]

He should take it whenever he is open, if he doesn’t his defender can just cheat on him. This is a different era, he needs the 3 if he wants to be a guard. His mindset isn’t a power forward like Giannis.

If he's wide open on ball reversal, sure. But he should be looking to take screens to get closer to the bucket and work from there. That does much more for the team than letting fly a shot we won't rebound when he misses.

Even with pnr action, defenders will just go under, take away the space down low and dare him to shoot. He needs the shooing.

[Shwaguy]

He's playing pure PG this season so far so his shot diet will be more skewed to outside shots rn.

Will go down a bit when IQ is back and he's not exclusively playing PG and has more minutes at SF/PF

[Shwaguy]

Does anybody here worry about his motivation? It seems as though he does tend to coast games - but when there is something he is trying to prove (i.e. against Pascal) - the motivation kicks in and we see what he could be. But it isnt consistent?

Lmao not even a little I'm pretty certain this is entirely in your head

[tsherkin]

Even with pnr action, defenders will just go under, take away the space down low and dare him to shoot. He needs the shooing.

He absolutely needs to shoot. But he needs to not-suck at it first. And that means tailoring some of his attempts a little more carefully. Early-clock pull-ups, for example, are probably not his friend.

[Purple+Black]

Does anybody here worry about his motivation? It seems as though he does tend to coast games - but when there is something he is trying to prove (i.e. against Pascal) - the motivation kicks in and we see what he could be. But it isnt consistent?

I see what you are saying - I don’t think I go as far as saying I worry about his motivation, instead I like to see it as the extra gear he turns on when there is something to prove.

Stars do this all the time, only problem is that he’s not a star but sometimes approaches the game with a ‘star mindset’. Thad might agree with me here.

[ATLTimekeeper]

If we wipe the first Cleveland game out of our memory, I think Scottie's been engaged a lot more than in previous years. I noticed an energy dip in the 2nd Miami game and he still put up a near triple double. To me that's a sign of maturity and consistency. His numbers aren't there yet in terms of efficiency but he's a much better player this year on both ends than last year. I don't think he'll ever be Grant Hill-level headedness, but he's not DeMarcus Cousins anymore.

[tsherkin]

If we wipe the first Cleveland game out of our memory, I think Scottie's been engaged a lot more than in previous years. I noticed an energy dip in the 2nd Miami game and he still put up a near triple double. To me that's a sign of maturity and consistency. His numbers aren't there yet in terms of efficiency but he's a much better player this year on both ends than last year. I don't think he'll ever be Grant Hill-level headedness, but he's not DeMarcus Cousins anymore.

I mean, Cousins was a bone-headed moron who had skill but didn't use it intelligently, and was generally also an inefficient volume scorer. I think Scottie is very different from him in so many ways that I dunno that he's a really useful point of comparison. Scottie's not stupid, and he doesn't behave like an immature moron. He's got some skill deficiencies and he's still learning how to deal with scoring burden, which is a different sort of journey from what we saw out of DMC.

Barnes is definitely looking very good in his all-around game. He still doesn't have the physical tools to look remotely similar to someone like Grant Hill in anything but raw box score averages, but I think he's also showcasing a different sort of playmaking and defense than we saw from Hill, too.

[Vampirate]

Does anybody here worry about his motivation? It seems as though he does tend to coast games - but when there is something he is trying to prove (i.e. against Pascal) - the motivation kicks in and we see what he could be. But it isnt consistent?

I see what you are saying - I don’t think I go as far as saying I worry about his motivation, instead I like to see it as the extra gear he turns on when there is something to prove.

Stars do this all the time, only problem is that he’s not a star but sometimes approaches the game with a ‘star mindset’. Thad might agree with me here.

If he's averaging 25/9/8/1/1 how is that not a star?

And yes, he's capable of that, depends on his 3 though.

[Vampirate]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

This is definitely the year for experimentation. Probably doesn't make sense to have him taking 5, 6 threes per game at the moment, though. And since coming back from the eye injury, he's actually taking 7.1 and shooting just over 31%. That's a bit much. It would be better to see more pull-ups and post-ups and such from him. The other parts of his game look pretty good, although obviously his efficiency is still below average.

There's a bit of middle ground to be had. Essentially, we're having him Wembanyama out, and I don't love that. I do like a lot of the other things we're seeing out of him right now, though. He's doing plenty of good stuff. And that Indy game was good; they blow on D, but he was able to take advantage, which was a great start. It's still early in the year, and even inside that, he's missed a lot of games, so specific numbers don't really much yet. So we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think it inappropriate to react to some stuff, though. 3pt volume needs to simmer down a bit. He's still not shooting very well, so it would make more sense to shoot it a little less unless he's having a hot night, and focus on developing other stuff, at least IMHO.

He's really not Wembying out.

Take out that N.O. Game and he's really averaging 6.5 threes a game at a 35.8% clip. He's fine, just gotta contextualize that game as the anomaly it was in a small sample size.

As the season progresses it'll mellow out to 6-7 threes ands the percentages should grow.

It's 9.2 threes for Wemby vs 6.5 for Barnes.

[tsherkin]

[
He's really not Wembying out.

I was exaggerating a little for effect, but he's still shooting a lot.

Take out that N.O. Game and he's really averaging 6.5 threes a game at a 35.8% clip.

6.5 vs 7.1 doesn't meaningfully change my opinion on the subject...

It's 9.2 threes for Wemby vs 6.5 for Barnes.

Yes, I am aware.