Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 8

[brownbobcat]

He should take it whenever he is open, if he doesn’t his defender can just cheat on him. This is a different era, he needs the 3 if he wants to be a guard. His mindset isn’t a power forward like Giannis.

If he's wide open on ball reversal, sure. But he should be looking to take screens to get closer to the bucket and work from there. That does much more for the team than letting fly a shot we won't rebound when he misses.

I'm fine with Barnes trying out anything this year. On the court, he has not shown to be a selfish player - usually the opposite. So if the he's taking extra shots from cold spots, that seems to be by design.

[Vampirate]

[
He's really not Wembying out.

I was exaggerating a little for effect, but he's still shooting a lot.

Take out that N.O. Game and he's really averaging 6.5 threes a game at a 35.8% clip.

6.5 vs 7.1 doesn't meaningfully change my opinion on the subject...

It's 9.2 threes for Wemby vs 6.5 for Barnes.

Yes, I am aware.

I'll just say, as long as he keeps having more of those 3/7 and 3/8 nights, i'm fine with the higher volume. There's going to be the 1/6 nights probably, but it looks like he's getting a bit consistent. (not going 5/7 one night and 1/9 the next).

Again, small sample size, but a good sign.

[tdotrep2]

we should absolutely not be overly worried about the type of shots scottie is taking. You know he's practiced them and even if the result is great you shouldn't care. We are not winning anything this year, not even close, so let him develop because this team only goes as far as he will take us.

[tsherkin]

I'm fine with Barnes trying out anything this year. On the court, he has not shown to be a selfish player - usually the opposite. So if the he's taking extra shots from cold spots, that seems to be by design.

A little here and there, sure. But a little more restraint and a little more emphasis on developing his middle game is still important.

I'll just say, as long as he keeps having more of those 3/7 and 3/8 nights, i'm fine with the higher volume. There's going to be the 1/6 nights probably, but it looks like he's getting a bit consistent. (not going 5/7 one night and 1/9 the next).

Again, small sample size, but a good sign.

What? He was 2/12 just 4 games ago. 1/6 two games prior to that. And he was 2/11 over the first 4 games of the season.

He's inconsistent as hell, he's just enjoying a run at the moment. He's 11/28 over 4 of the last 5 games (taking out the 2/12 performance against the Pels), which is about 39.3%.

And he's going to continue to be inconsistent, because that's how shooting at that percentage (or lower) at that volume works...

[Vampirate]

I'm fine with Barnes trying out anything this year. On the court, he has not shown to be a selfish player - usually the opposite. So if the he's taking extra shots from cold spots, that seems to be by design.

A little here and there, sure. But a little more restraint and a little more emphasis on developing his middle game is still important.

I'll just say, as long as he keeps having more of those 3/7 and 3/8 nights, i'm fine with the higher volume. There's going to be the 1/6 nights probably, but it looks like he's getting a bit consistent. (not going 5/7 one night and 1/9 the next).

Again, small sample size, but a good sign.

What? He was 2/12 just 4 games ago. 1/6 two games prior to that. And he was 2/11 over the first 4 games of the season.

He's inconsistent as hell, he's just enjoying a run at the moment. He's 11/28 over 4 of the last 5 games (taking out the 2/12 performance against the Pels), which is about 39.3%.

And he's going to continue to be inconsistent, because that's how shooting at that percentage (or lower) at that volume works...

Well I obviously would not suggest to shoot 12 threes, unless he's really on one of those nights lol. In the Same Pels game he only had 2 FTs...

As for the first 4 games, it was on such low volume, he only took 4 threes in one of those and shot 2 threes twice.

[tsherkin]

Well I obviously would not suggest to shoot 12 threes, unless he's really on one of those nights lol. In the Same Pels game he only had 2 FTs...

As for the first 4 games, it was on such low volume, he only took 4 threes in one of those and shot 2 threes twice.

That's closer to the volume I would be happy from him on average, with some room to shoot it a little more if he's hot.

But yeah, he's been inconsistent AF. That in and of itself isn't a huge problem, that's just 3pt shooting, though. So there's no real space to discuss the idea that he hasn't been inconsistent from 3.

[Tha Cynic]

Scottie is the orchestra conductor. He's going to direct the pieces. Masai needs to build the orchestra, which likely includes a play finisher at the end of games.

I agree. I dont see Scottie as a 30 ppg guy, but that doesnt mean he isnt critical to our team.

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

Scottie is the big man version of Lowry which is probably Kevin Garnett. He will be the best player on the team but someone else will be the main scorer for a contending team. In today's NBA you almost need a guy who can get 25-30 PPG on the team. When you need a huge bucket, they will go to Scottie as he is one of those unstoppable force type. His ability to impact the game in every facet of the game is what makes him what he is - not his scoring. But he will become a better scorer. You can see him trying to get better with his midrange and above the break 3s.

In order for Barnes to be a 25PPG guy you will need to ask him to defend less and run the team less which will take away from who he is. He has consistently been one of the biggest guys in the league who covers the most distance in the NBA in his entire tenure.

We overdo this whole scoring thing imo. I doubt when he was drafted anyone looked at him as a 25PPG scorer.

[Vampirate]

I agree. I dont see Scottie as a 30 ppg guy, but that doesnt mean he isnt critical to our team.

It doesn't mean he can't be the best player on a contender either. The notion that they need some 30ppg iso god to get there is an incorrect one. Especially with a player like Scottie in the fold.

Scottie has a SIGNIFICANTLY higher chance of being the player capable of leading a title contender than we are to draft one in this year's coming draft, even if we had the best lottery odds going into the lotto. We do need another high impact player. Our future contention is not contingent on that player being better than Scottie though, if he is, that'd be an amazingly fortunate turn of events, but if he isn't. The future is still very bright.

Scottie is the big man version of Lowry which is probably Kevin Garnett. He will be the best player on the team but someone else will be the main scorer for a contending team. In today's NBA you almost need a guy who can get 25-30 PPG on the team. When you need a huge bucket, they will go to Scottie as he is one of those unstoppable force type. His ability to impact the game in every facet of the game is what makes him what he is - not his scoring. But he will become a better scorer. You can see him trying to get better with his midrange and above the break 3s.

In order for Barnes to be a 25PPG guy you will need to ask him to defend less and run the team less which will take away from who he is. He has consistently been one of the biggest guys in the league who covers the most distance in the NBA in his entire tenure.

We overdo this whole scoring thing imo. I doubt when he was drafted anyone looked at him as a 25PPG scorer.

He's currently at 46.6%/29%/71.6%

He's taking 17.2 shots per game and scoring 22 (almost at the 5 point gap you need to see for an All Star). Assuming the first half of last year wasn't a fluke and he gets his 3P% closer to 35 and his FT% up, I can see him getting to close to 25PPG on his current shot attempts and current Ftr.

What's key here is he's taking more shots away from the basket (mid ranges as well) which if he's hitting them, can conserve his energy for the defensive end.

[Tha Cynic]

Against the likes of Indiana, sure destroy them at the rim, who's going to stop you, however it's when he runs into a team of Allen + Mobley that's the issue.

What works against the Pacers, won't work against the Cavs.

Ideally he should have something of a 15% (0-3 ft)/20% (3-10 ft)/20% (10-16 ft)/15% (16-3P ft)/30% (3P ft) split in his prime.

Unless you're Giannis you won't get most of your points at 0-3 feet.

It's average for a reason man. Some games you will dominate the rim, some games you won't. I am not saying he should have same shot profile every game lol.

See, if Scottie has that shot distribution you listed, he likely won't be more than a league average TS% guy then. That is tweaked version of post injury KD. 6'7 230lbs forward he has to be taking closer to 25% of his shot 0-3 feet. A reason Tatum been more efficient last 3 seasons even though his 3's been up and down is because he became a better finisher.

I disagree on this (also Barnes bread and butter isn't at the rim, it's 3-10 feet, and always been that area).

I also hope that his shooting from 10-16 feet .540 atm, isn't a fluke and there's something there.

He's shooting .730/.500./.540 from 0-16 feet overall right now, So maybe he extended his range out to the FT line (I hope).

Agreed. That midrange game is more important than people make it seem. If we want him to develop a go-to move, that's where it's going to be. You can't just ask him to keep taking inside shots when your team is one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. Teams can just pack the paint lol. He needs to keep developing that midrange game and keep taking a ton of them. Forget analytics here.

[Tha Cynic]

There is a lot of doubt that Scottie can become a three level number one option scoring threat, but when he and the team are trying to expand his game in that direction there is criticism of that. Which begs the question, what is he supposed to do then? Intentionally limit himself to only the stuff he’s already shown to be good at? Even if he does that, at some point expanding his game is going to mean doing stuff he’s not good at yet and it might look ugly. That’s part of development though.

Doesn’t seem to make that much sense to me to expect a guy who came into the league raw to look polished and refined when trying to add to what was a weak base to start with.

Most important point in the thread. A lot of comments about his limits but nothing about how you need to try new things to get better. We can pull historical stats all we want, but we hope he's more or a DeRozan type who came in with nothing and improves his game until he perfects areas he was bad at on offense.

That's why, bomb away and spam the midrange. You don't need him taking everything inside on a terrible 3 point shooting teams. Teams are daring your team to shoot the 3.

[tsherkin]

He's currently at 46.6%/29%/71.6%

He's taking 17.2 shots per game and scoring 22 (almost at the 5 point gap you need to see for an All Star). Assuming the first half of last year wasn't a fluke and he gets his 3P% closer to 35 and his FT% up, I can see him getting to close to 25PPG on his current shot attempts and current Ftr.

What's key here is he's taking more shots away from the basket (mid ranges as well) which if he's hitting them, can conserve his energy for the defensive end.

Yeah, efficiency is the difference between Scottie at 25+ ppg and Scottie where he is currently at.

Scottie's at .354 FTr this year, which is a wild increase over any other season of his career. I don't really trust it, but if he maintains that and climbs to/maintains 35% from 3 at present volume? That'd push him to about 23.8 ppg on about 59.0% TS. That'd be great for us. Not an ATG scoring threat or anything, but certainly within striking distance of 25.

I don't think specific scoring average is really the point, though. It's more about capacity to elevate in key moments and average level of efficiency. Especially as a guy who produces a lot of assists, Scottie would have to really push his possession demand to score 25+ ppg and maintain his playmaking, and I think that's a level above where he is.

We'll see what happens.

[Vampirate]

He's currently at 46.6%/29%/71.6%

He's taking 17.2 shots per game and scoring 22 (almost at the 5 point gap you need to see for an All Star). Assuming the first half of last year wasn't a fluke and he gets his 3P% closer to 35 and his FT% up, I can see him getting to close to 25PPG on his current shot attempts and current Ftr.

What's key here is he's taking more shots away from the basket (mid ranges as well) which if he's hitting them, can conserve his energy for the defensive end.

Yeah, efficiency is the difference between Scottie at 25+ ppg and Scottie where he is currently at.

Scottie's at .354 FTr this year, which is a wild increase over any other season of his career. I don't really trust it, but if he maintains that and climbs to/maintains 35% from 3 at present volume? That'd push him to about 23.8 ppg on about 59.0% TS. That'd be great for us. Not an ATG scoring threat or anything, but certainly within striking distance of 25.

I don't think specific scoring average is really the point, though. It's more about capacity to elevate in key moments and average level of efficiency. Especially as a guy who produces a lot of assists, Scottie would have to really push his possession demand to score 25+ ppg and maintain his playmaking, and I think that's a level above where he is.

We'll see what happens.

His FTr has been on a steady incline every year, so while .354 may be a bit high I think .300 may be within reach, especially as the main ball handler/2ndary handler.

His handles have definitely improved and I believe part of the TO issue is him attempting higher riskier passes, ball handling moves.
2 of his TOs against the Pacers were him trying to do a behind the back move against Siakam to get by him.

[tsherkin]

His FTr has been on a steady incline every year, so while .354 may be a bit high I think .300 may be within reach, especially as the main ball handler/2ndary handler.

.300 would be a lot more believable, yes.

[Thaddy]

Barnes has a good opportunity show that he's the best player on the floor against OKC today. He isn't better than SGA but he could have a great night that'll drive momentum forward. He needs to destroy his match up and demand a double team against JWill. Then Poeltl and Hartenstein will pack the paint but he needs to work around that. A Barnes/Mogbo front court will probably destroy them.

[brownbobcat]

A little here and there, sure. But a little more restraint and a little more emphasis on developing his middle game is still important.

I won't quibble with prioritizing a different area of improvement, but it does seem like the 3PT shot is easier to work on and get his shot off. There's a lot more complexity to actually getting off a good midrange shot (and making it)

Look at the breakdown of his 3P attempts, all with defenders at least 4+ ft away and over 40% 6+ ft away. He has to take those.


https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/shots-dash

[tsherkin]

A little here and there, sure. But a little more restraint and a little more emphasis on developing his middle game is still important.

I won't quibble with prioritizing a different area of improvement, but it does seem like the 3PT shot is easier to work on and get his shot off. There's a lot more complexity to actually getting off a good midrange shot (and making it)

Look at the breakdown of his 3P attempts, all with defenders at least 4+ ft away and over 40% 6+ ft away. He has to take those.


https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630567/shots-dash

I know, it's just... he's so bad at them that it murders his consistency and efficiency. And they take away from his work on the more complex developments for his mid-range game. It's frustrating. I know he ultimately needs both but the 3, especially open threes, he just needs to get his heart rate up and then shoot in the gym. It's far more difficult to practice the middle stuff outside of a live game.

[Thaddy]

I don't think Jwill is better than him. Jwill leverages the elite defense to get transition points and find spots.

[Shwaguy]

Chet isn't even better than him, let alone JWill

[Scizzup]

Chet isn't even better than him, let alone JWill

Chet is absolutely better than Barnes. Chet is a top 3 defender in the league, he is better on defense than anything Barnes gives you on offense. And on offense he still provides spacing/finishing for his team. Bigs like Chet are gamebreakers.

You can debate Jalen vs Barnes, and talk about the support he has but he is a more skilled player for today nba. OKC would not trade
Jalen for Scottie at all.

Edit: Only guy under 24 better than Chet when he is healthy is Wemby. So this is not even a knock on Scottie.

[DelAbbot]

Jalen Williams is better than Scottie Barnes