Tank World Order

[ruckus]

What could we get from Philly for Kyle, Norm and Boucher? Or even just Kyle and Norm. If we take back Harris (cause Simmons can slide over to Sf/pf) with Kyle at pg, what can we get back in terms of picks and young players? Thybulle would be a nice fit in our culture, Mike Scott to fill salary? They were unwilling to give up Maxey in the Harden deal. Would they be willing to part with him for Lowry?

[Pooh_Jeter]

The resemblance between "TWO" and Trump supporters is uncanny.

Both convince themselves that being a loser is justified. Its been and is fascinating to watch to say the least.

wow. i mean you can be arguing about this in a respectable manner or not talk about it at all. you just lowered yourself to the standard of pettiness and elementary grade name calling here.

you realize that the players play to win and that GMs/Owners can replenish their talent level through the draft. mostly uncorrelated. all teams do it in every league. Basketball, baseball, Hockey.

i've been saying it again and again, the name of the game is control of a potential superstar for 7+ years and adding/raising the talent ceiling/floor. I do not think there is anything wrong with that at all as it is a method of potentially achieving a championship(s) down the line. it is an approach.

noone here is saying they want to keep losing as you've tried so hard and "cleverly" trying to associate them with an unpopular group of US voters. just comparing the two makes you a **** dick.

You obviously have a very low perception of Trump supporters or you wouldn't have taken this so personally. I can't blame you, its easy to blame Trumpers for their ignorance and though it doesn't matter what my views are in this regard, i will say im very liberal and believe in some socialist systems but defining the 49ish % of Americans as one negative group is wrong. They are clearly misinformed and have felt they haven't been represented for a longtime.

In comes Trump (TWO), and he tells and shows his supporters its ok to be an **** (loser) to get what you want and you will get what you want if you support me. "Two" promises a top 5 pick who will make the Raptors great again. Its guaranteed that this pick will bring immediate success to the team and that we will be back to "winning" in no time!

The fact is, it sounds nice but its just not true. Its not true that we can guarantee a top 5 pick and its not true that that pick will immediately become the primary and final piece to a championship team.

Now, i don't believe in TWO but i do believe in building assets so im all for the right Lowry, Norm and none core trades. We very well may end up with 13th-18th pick and im fine with that. What im not fine with developing players in a losing atmosphere just like i don't believe a country should be run in a negative one.

Few conflicts can be solved with easy solution but most aren't. High rewards take mental toughness, work ethic and patience not just "fantastic people". Champions are build with character, not just talent.

Yeah, you made up a bunch of stuff no one has ever said and then doubled down on comparing us all to Trump and his supporters.

Show me one post where anyone is guaranteeing a top 5 pick (how could anyone?) or that one pick guarantees anything beyond the chance at securing a high ceiling prospect who could potentially be a star.

This is honestly shameful stuff.

[VanWest82]

Kyle, Norm and Boucher being dealt is a must. There is no reasonable argument outside of the offers being absolute garbage not to deal them.

What would lead you to believe we could extract real value for a 35 y.o. PG on a 30M expiring, an underperforming bench guy with a PO, and a bench big who, although he's been incredible this year, is ultimately just a bench big that probably needs a very specific situation to be successful due to his size?

imo the most likely scenario for those guys (assuming we continue to lose): Kyle gets bought out so he can sign with a contender, Norm maybe gets traded for a 2nd if we're lucky, and we keep Boucher because there's literally no one else.

[isyed]

Siakam gets shelved for a couple months and we move lowry to Philly for picks and maxey. Norm for ball. Fvv gets some minor injuries. Og gets more reps as 1st option and sucks but learns for next year.

We tank and get a top 5 pick.

Use cap space on a legit big and then use the picks from lowry trade to move up to maybe a top 15 pick and let's start fresh in Toronto next year

Fvv/flynn
Lonzo/td/Thomas
Og/top 5 pick
Siakam/boucher
Free agent(Jarret Allen) /top 15 pick







Sent from my SM-G975U1 using RealGM mobile app

[Marty_Budda]

nah, it is just politics101. Hopefully, you understand Red Claw's comparison better now. Cheers!

I understood it the first time without the pseudo intellectual bs.

It’s a crappy comparison with the intention to upset people. Not resolve anything.

"pseudo intellectual" for a definition that you should know at 18 years old, if not sooner. okay then.

It is a fair comparison 100%. People have decided to live in totally different reality.
FVV&Siakam performed at the highest-level in the NBA Finals (rare breed of players that can do that)...But TWO want to move away from that having convinced themselves that their "future" high FirstRound picks will automatically perform at the highest-level as well. Sorry folks, conflict has been resolved: We are sticking with FVV and Siakam

Pseudo intellectual means you’re trying to sound smart or be thought of as smart without actually being that smart. Saying stuff like “you should’ve known this definition at 18 if not sooner” further proves my point.

Sad part is I don’t really disagree with you about Fred and pascal. Most of us on here have already said they’re not the guys we want to trade.

[Basketball_Jones]

Masai needs to think long term here. Is it honestly sneak into the playoffs and thinking that will attract a big fish? They all want to go to contenders or warm locations. It's like if Detroit snuck into the playoffs with cap space next season, you think anybody wants to go there? We need more promising young talent combined with what we have. We can't just plug vets into this core because the foundation is crumbling with Lowry leaving and Siakam regressing.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

The resemblance between "TWO" and Trump supporters is uncanny.

Both convince themselves that being a loser is justified. Its been and is fascinating to watch to say the least.

wow. i mean you can be arguing about this in a respectable manner or not talk about it at all. you just lowered yourself to the standard of pettiness and elementary grade name calling here.

you realize that the players play to win and that GMs/Owners can replenish their talent level through the draft. mostly uncorrelated. all teams do it in every league. Basketball, baseball, Hockey.

i've been saying it again and again, the name of the game is control of a potential superstar for 7+ years and adding/raising the talent ceiling/floor. I do not think there is anything wrong with that at all as it is a method of potentially achieving a championship(s) down the line. it is an approach.

noone here is saying they want to keep losing as you've tried so hard and "cleverly" trying to associate them with an unpopular group of US voters. just comparing the two makes you a **** dick.

You obviously have a very low perception of Trump supporters or you wouldn't have taken this so personally. I can't blame you, its easy to blame Trumpers for their ignorance and though it doesn't matter what my views are in this regard, i will say im very liberal and believe in some socialist systems but defining the 49ish % of Americans as one negative group is wrong. They are clearly misinformed and have felt they haven't been represented for a longtime.

In comes Trump (TWO), and he tells and shows his supporters its ok to be an **** (loser) to get what you want and you will get what you want if you support me. "Two" promises a top 5 pick who will make the Raptors great again. Its guaranteed that this pick will bring immediate success to the team and that we will be back to "winning" in no time!

The fact is, it sounds nice but its just not true. Its not true that we can guarantee a top 5 pick and its not true that that pick will immediately become the primary and final piece to a championship team.

Now, i don't believe in TWO but i do believe in building assets so im all for the right Lowry, Norm and none core trades. We very well may end up with 13th-18th pick and im fine with that. What im not fine with developing players in a losing atmosphere just like i don't believe a country should be run in a negative one.

Few conflicts can be solved with easy solution but most aren't. High rewards take mental toughness, work ethic and patience not just "fantastic people". Champions are build with character, not just talent.

ignoring all the political stuff

the point is retool around higher ceiling players and have a longer control, contract wise, over them so the Raptors can be successful in the long run, someone the Raptors can surround with the likes of Siakam, FVV, and OG. the talent floor is raised and we can expect a brighter future. if you can get a potential superstar that immediately brings up the compete level of this team, and the Raptors have control over them for more than a free agent or a traded player can, why won't we?

no one is guaranteeing anything when it comes to a lottery pick because they can bust but the level of that player is substantiated from years and years of lottery stats - that a player in the lottery is most likely going to really help your team from a talent standpoint - which I don't even think you can refute.

they (the Raptors) have character and work ethic - noone is saying otherwise. they just lack talent, which is where we come back full circle of going to the lottery.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Kyle, Norm and Boucher being dealt is a must. There is no reasonable argument outside of the offers being absolute garbage not to deal them.

What would lead you to believe we could extract real value for a 35 y.o. PG on a 30M expiring, an underperforming bench guy with a PO, and a bench big who, although he's been incredible this year, is ultimately just a bench big that probably needs a very specific situation to be successful due to his size?

imo the most likely scenario for those guys (assuming we continue to lose): Kyle gets bought out so he can sign with a contender, Norm maybe gets traded for a 2nd if we're lucky, and we keep Boucher because there's literally no one else.

Kyle is still really good and there are a few contenders where he would fill an obvious need.

You could package Norm and Boucher together. Bench scoring and stretch bigs (both of which are capable of spot starts) is useful to contenders. Whether it's a pick or a semi interesting prospect there is value likely to be had.

[ash_k]

I understood it the first time without the pseudo intellectual bs.

It’s a crappy comparison with the intention to upset people. Not resolve anything.

"pseudo intellectual" for a definition that you should know at 18 years old, if not sooner. okay then.

It is a fair comparison 100%. People have decided to live in totally different reality.
FVV&Siakam performed at the highest-level in the NBA Finals (rare breed of players that can do that)...But TWO want to move away from that having convinced themselves that their "future" high FirstRound picks will automatically perform at the highest-level as well. Sorry folks, conflict has been resolved: We are sticking with FVV and Siakam

Pseudo intellectual means you’re trying to sound smart without actually being that smart. Saying stuff like “you should’ve known this definition at 18 if not sooner” further proves my point.

Sad part is I don’t really disagree with you about Fred and pascal. Most of us on here have already said they’re not the guys we want to trade.

You are just confusing Smart versus being knowledgeable but that's okay. Just like TWO think it is a smart idea to Tank!

We have the defenders now we just need our players like FVV&Siakam to be smarter with their decision making.
Like FVV trying to finish when 3 defenders collapse on him instead of kicking it out. (Please kick it out!)

[Steelo Green]

When people say things like “Siakam and Fred have performed in the finals, something a rare breed have” then I have a chuckle because that isn’t actually the truth.

Danny Green was a Ray Allen last second triple away from a finals MVP.

Maxwell - 0 all-star appearances has a finals MVP.

Toni Kukoc, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, Derek Fischer,
Miami Ray Allen, Michael Cooper, Harper, Bowen, Igoudala.

These are all role players who were key to finals wins.

There are a plethora more but we pretend that Fred and Pascal are in very special group and that somehow absolves them for the players they are now.

Also for some fun stats, Fred is having his lowest shooting efficiency since his rookie year this season and Pascal the lowest ever in his career (0.518?!).

But hey - let’s bask in the glory of their finals performance forever. We know they can do it just like we knew Danny Green could shoot the lights out and win another finals MVP.

Nostalgia when there’s ample evidence to show the past is over and done with is a bad way to make you get into a path of mediocrity.

[KL78192020]

The resemblance between "TWO" and Trump supporters is uncanny.

Both convince themselves that being a loser is justified. Its been and is fascinating to watch to say the least.

wow. i mean you can be arguing about this in a respectable manner or not talk about it at all. you just lowered yourself to the standard of pettiness and elementary grade name calling here.

you realize that the players play to win and that GMs/Owners can replenish their talent level through the draft. mostly uncorrelated. all teams do it in every league. Basketball, baseball, Hockey.

i've been saying it again and again, the name of the game is control of a potential superstar for 7+ years and adding/raising the talent ceiling/floor. I do not think there is anything wrong with that at all as it is a method of potentially achieving a championship(s) down the line. it is an approach.

noone here is saying they want to keep losing as you've tried so hard and "cleverly" trying to associate them with an unpopular group of US voters. just comparing the two makes you a **** dick.

You obviously have a very low perception of Trump supporters or you wouldn't have taken this so personally. I can't blame you, its easy to blame Trumpers for their ignorance and though it doesn't matter what my views are in this regard, i will say im very liberal and believe in some socialist systems but defining the 49ish % of Americans as one negative group is wrong. They are clearly misinformed and have felt they haven't been represented for a longtime.

In comes Trump (TWO), and he tells and shows his supporters its ok to be an **** (loser) to get what you want and you will get what you want if you support me. "Two" promises a top 5 pick who will make the Raptors great again. Its guaranteed that this pick will bring immediate success to the team and that we will be back to "winning" in no time!

The fact is, it sounds nice but its just not true. Its not true that we can guarantee a top 5 pick and its not true that that pick will immediately become the primary and final piece to a championship team.

Now, i don't believe in TWO but i do believe in building assets so im all for the right Lowry, Norm and none core trades. We very well may end up with 13th-18th pick and im fine with that. What im not fine with developing players in a losing atmosphere just like i don't believe a country should be run in a negative one.

Few conflicts can be solved with easy solution but most aren't. High rewards take mental toughness, work ethic and patience not just "fantastic people". Champions are build with character, not just talent.

I guess Mark Cuban must be a huge Trump supporter since he literally stated he tanked. Cuban is quite amazing with a "Losers" mentality to be so successful in life. I'll strive to be like you instead of Mark Cuban the Trump Tanking Loser Supporter.

[Bruin]

Kyle, Norm and Boucher being dealt is a must. There is no reasonable argument outside of the offers being absolute garbage not to deal them.

I'm probably on the extreme end of the TWO, but even for me as much as I don't really believe in Siakam, FVV or OG as anything but high end role players, they shouldn't just be dumped for anything you can get. They should have real value and you can be selective in how you approach any deals with them involved.

I guess when you don't actually have a reasonable argument you can just make up that TWO is for 5 years of tanking and trading every player on the roster. That, or just call us Nazi's and various other personal attacks.

Trading Boucher at his peak value right now is a must. Cheap contract and don’t see him ever putting up much better numbers as he’s soon gonna be on scouting reports and will be dealt with by teams. Plus he’s not really young anymore. This is his prime basically. I think we could reasonably get a 1st rounder for him from a team drafting in the 20s

Need to wait until at least after Feb 23 2020

I thought it was Feb 6?

[VanWest82]

Kyle, Norm and Boucher being dealt is a must. There is no reasonable argument outside of the offers being absolute garbage not to deal them.

What would lead you to believe we could extract real value for a 35 y.o. PG on a 30M expiring, an underperforming bench guy with a PO, and a bench big who, although he's been incredible this year, is ultimately just a bench big that probably needs a very specific situation to be successful due to his size?

imo the most likely scenario for those guys (assuming we continue to lose): Kyle gets bought out so he can sign with a contender, Norm maybe gets traded for a 2nd if we're lucky, and we keep Boucher because there's literally no one else.

Kyle is still really good and there are a few contenders where he would fill an obvious need.

You could package Norm and Boucher together. Bench scoring and stretch bigs (both of which are capable of spot starts) is useful to contenders. Whether it's a pick or a semi interesting prospect there is value likely to be had.

Yes Kyle is still very good but he makes 30M which means it's going to be much harder to match salary without taking back deals that run past 2021, in which case is it really worth it if the return is just another pick in the late 20s? We don't need more crappy contracts. Also, the only way a contender is giving up anything of value is because they want his bird rights in order to re-sign him which further narrows the list of teams because Kyle probably has a pretty good idea of where he wants to go if it's not the raptors. I just don't think it's likely that there's going to be much of a market given his age/salary.

If I'm a contender I have serious questions about whether Boucher can play in the post season. Also, trading away our only competent big is perhaps an overly aggressive tanking strategy. The point is to get a better draft pick, not wreck the team.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Trading Boucher at his peak value right now is a must. Cheap contract and don’t see him ever putting up much better numbers as he’s soon gonna be on scouting reports and will be dealt with by teams. Plus he’s not really young anymore. This is his prime basically. I think we could reasonably get a 1st rounder for him from a team drafting in the 20s

Need to wait until at least after Feb 23 2020

I thought it was Feb 6?

i think it says 3 months after you signed a contract?

Boucher signed the 2 year deal on Nov 25 or something like that

[MixxSRC]

It makes a lot more sense to tank this year even if you like Siakam and FVV. This year is a wash. I don't think anybody can disagree with that. They are not contenders. After that FVV and Siakam have 3 years on their deals. It's better to infuse this roster with fresh talent then do it in the future. After 3 years Siakam and FVV will be close to 30.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

What would lead you to believe we could extract real value for a 35 y.o. PG on a 30M expiring, an underperforming bench guy with a PO, and a bench big who, although he's been incredible this year, is ultimately just a bench big that probably needs a very specific situation to be successful due to his size?

imo the most likely scenario for those guys (assuming we continue to lose): Kyle gets bought out so he can sign with a contender, Norm maybe gets traded for a 2nd if we're lucky, and we keep Boucher because there's literally no one else.

Kyle is still really good and there are a few contenders where he would fill an obvious need.

You could package Norm and Boucher together. Bench scoring and stretch bigs (both of which are capable of spot starts) is useful to contenders. Whether it's a pick or a semi interesting prospect there is value likely to be had.

Yes Kyle is still very good but he makes 30M which means it's going to be much harder to match salary without taking back deals that run past 2021, in which case is it really worth it if the return is just another pick in the late 20s? We don't need more crappy contracts. Also, the only way a contender is giving up anything of value is because they want his bird rights in order to re-sign him which further narrows the list of teams because Kyle probably has a pretty good idea of where he wants to go if it's not the raptors. I just don't think it's likely that there's going to be much of a market given his age/salary.

If I'm a contender I have serious questions about whether Boucher can play in the post season. Also, trading away our only competent big is perhaps an overly aggressive tanking strategy. The point is to get a better draft pick, not wreck the team.

it would be funny if the Raptors traded Lowry and the returning players compliment the team so well that the Raptors get like 5th or 6th seed lmao. *cries in confused tears

[Pooh_Jeter]

What could we get from Philly for Kyle, Norm and Boucher? Or even just Kyle and Norm. If we take back Harris (cause Simmons can slide over to Sf/pf) with Kyle at pg, what can we get back in terms of picks and young players? Thybulle would be a nice fit in our culture, Mike Scott to fill salary? They were unwilling to give up Maxey in the Harden deal. Would they be willing to part with him for Lowry?

They would definitely give incentive to dump Harris, but I'm not sure if they would do that in season. If they were getting Boucher and potentially Norm maybe they would take that big of a leap though.

I feel like Maxey is a hard no, but Milton and Thybulle are definitely possibilities. I just can't imagine more than maybe 2 picks even with Harris being moved. I think getting rid of Horford lessened the burden of dumping him and it's not like he is an outright bad player, he is just overpaid.

[DreamTeam09]

If we are losing with this current format of players, then why is this thread at 59pages and counting?? The tankers should be happy about our record, the anti-tankers shouldn't be up in arms either, a high lottery pick is something this team could use, an influx of high-end talent.

The only thing I don't agree with that I see many of ya'all advocating for is trading the guys we have locked up on long terms. I'd keep FVV Pascal OG Boucher and then make our moves from there. But we definitely should be closer to even ground between the tankers and anti-tankers

[LBJKB24MJ23]

It makes a lot more sense to tank this year even if you like Siakam and FVV. This year is a wash. I don't think anybody can disagree with that. They are not contenders. After that FVV and Siakam have 3 years on their deals. It's better to infuse this roster with fresh talent then do it in the future. After 3 years Siakam and FVV will be close to 30.

i think this is what everyone is thinking. infuse this team with fresh and better talent and have FVV, Siakam, OG surround this talent and inject their work habits and mentality to the kid.

this lottery pick will have a lot of good examples of hard work and ethics to learn from.

[MixxSRC]

It makes a lot more sense to tank this year even if you like Siakam and FVV. This year is a wash. I don't think anybody can disagree with that. They are not contenders. After that FVV and Siakam have 3 years on their deals. It's better to infuse this roster with fresh talent then do it in the future. After 3 years Siakam and FVV will be close to 30.

i think this is what everyone is thinking. infuse this team with fresh and better talent and have FVV, Siakam, OG surround this talent and inject their work habits and mentality to the kid.

this lottery pick will have a lot of good examples of hard work and ethics to learn from.

I think for some anti-tankers everything need to be spelled out for them