Stein/Fischer: Toronto willing to deal RJ Barrett, IQ, Poeltl for Significant Upgrades // #9 Available

[MoneyBall]

Now that I think of it Miami would actually be pretty cool with Herro and Bam. Get a PG and solid 3 and d role players and they can make another run to The Finals

Who's going the other way? Miami looks depleted.

Wiggins Ware Jovic #20 are their assets

Rozier and SLO-Mo dead weight rerouted elsewhere

I was working under the assumption that the Suns were hoping to be competitive next year to appease Booker. This looks like a pretty big step back in the short term.

[PhilBlackson]

Now that I think of it Miami would actually be pretty cool with Herro and Bam. Get a PG and solid 3 and d role players and they can make another run to The Finals

Who's going the other way? Miami looks depleted.

Wiggins Ware Jovic #20 are their assets

Rozier and SLO-Mo dead weight rerouted elsewhere

I think PHX will mainly want Ware & Wiggins even more so than the 20th. Those 2 should at least help the Suns to tread water to not endure too painful of a rebuild/although still a rebuild lol. If they can get more out of Ware they might be able to drum up some mild excitement and/or eventually move on from Booker in a couple of years once they locked him into another extension to flip for even more assets.

“Win now mode” with Poeltl doesn’t really make sense. Yak is a free agent next summer and his addition to the team won’t suddenly put them in the Playoffs. I’m not sure that Wiggins couldn’t have a similar impact to Poeltl overall and he’s younger with more years remaining. They’re still a below mid team with a ton of holes either way But they need to sell their fans on some “hope” with a younger, higher upside prospect and hopefully can add another with the 20th pick should they likely push for that as well. Then they should be relatively as “competitive” while also having a young prospect like Ware that has established that he has real potential but also does it from the C position with LONG TERM control.

[ArthurVandelay]

Who's going the other way? Miami looks depleted.

Wiggins Ware Jovic #20 are their assets

Rozier and SLO-Mo dead weight rerouted elsewhere

I was working under the assumption that the Suns were hoping to be competitive next year to appease Booker. This looks like a pretty big step back in the short term.

Heat assets aren’t necessarily heading to PHX

[bboyskinnylegs]

no new odds showing the Raps as the favourites to land random player X?

[TGM]

If Ware is in the deal, KD going to Miami for sure, but doubt the Heat do it.

Personally think the Heat should go after someone like Derozan at a fraction of the cost.

[DreamTeam09]

I'm kinda high on Ware, not so much Jovic but I see the appeal.

I'd ask for Jamie Jacquez instead

Wiggins/Ware/Jamie Jacquez/20th

[CazOnReal]

Now that I think of it Miami would actually be pretty cool with Herro and Bam. Get a PG and solid 3 and d role players and they can make another run to The Finals

Who's going the other way? Miami looks depleted.

Duncan Robinson, Jovic (presumably) and Wiggins

I'm assuming Wiggins gets rerouted, possibly with #29 to us for RJ, possibly elsewhere.

If i'm Miami, Ware isn't even on the table when I can sign KD in a year in free agency. Like Robinson's contract comes off the books, Rozier's money is off the books and i'm pretty sure Slo-Mo's final year is a team option.

You could also bank of JJJ having a bounceback 3rd year but realistically I think he's closer to his ceiling than not given how old he was when he joined the NBA.

[Tor_Raps]

hey guys. anybody know a store that sell F5 keys?

Yes but sadly that store closed in 2003

[Scase]

But he hasn't, and that's my point. That's why I said same or worse, cause I was trying to not be overly negative about it.

Last 100+ games in NYC he averaged about 59% TS%, in his total time with us, he's averaged about a little under 57% TS%. So he's gotten noticeably worse with a marginal increase to USG% 22% vs 25%. His TOV% is up 10% vs 9%. His AST% rate is up, as is RJ's, because they have both been asked to handle the ball more due to injuries, our team wide AST/g are identical this year vs last, 28.5 vs 28.5. Meanwhile Scotties AST% has marginally increased, despite his AST/g actually dropping from 6.1 to 5.8. All this means is that someone has to make the pass to a scoring player in a pass heavy offence.

I'm not trying to say IQ is awful or anything, but nothing he has done since being here would qualify as "seriously good". At best, he's stagnated, but realistically (due to injuries or otherwise) has gotten demonstrably worse. If people want to say he's played about as expected and has been injured so they expect better next season, that's completely reasonable and I can get behind it, but I don't see any purpose in gassing him up and lying about objective results.

I don’t know why you’re picking timelines to fit a narrative. Just look at the seasons.

2022/2023 - .578 TS
2023/2024 - .577 TS
2024/2025 - .570 TS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/q/quickim01.html

And that’s with him becoming a full time PG. PGs have a lower league average TS vs SGs. He’s 200bps above league average efficiency at PG with high volume and he’s doing it on a team with no shooting.

What timelines, I'm picking his last 100+ games as a knick vs his time as a raptor. He dropped efficiency while taking 1.5 more FGA, so as I said from the outset, same, or worse. That .577 is lacking serious context, he put up .598 on the knicks and .564 as a raptor. So lets not be shifty and try and pool those together. We are talking his performance since becoming a raptor.

Which again, still does not prove "seriously good" numbers in any stretch.

[Gavin_TDThree]

tin foil hat, I wonder if the trade's already done so they're waiting until after the finals to announce it. Aren't the ratings not great for this finals?

[ForeverTFC]

But he hasn't, and that's my point. That's why I said same or worse, cause I was trying to not be overly negative about it.

Last 100+ games in NYC he averaged about 59% TS%, in his total time with us, he's averaged about a little under 57% TS%. So he's gotten noticeably worse with a marginal increase to USG% 22% vs 25%. His TOV% is up 10% vs 9%. His AST% rate is up, as is RJ's, because they have both been asked to handle the ball more due to injuries, our team wide AST/g are identical this year vs last, 28.5 vs 28.5. Meanwhile Scotties AST% has marginally increased, despite his AST/g actually dropping from 6.1 to 5.8. All this means is that someone has to make the pass to a scoring player in a pass heavy offence.

I'm not trying to say IQ is awful or anything, but nothing he has done since being here would qualify as "seriously good". At best, he's stagnated, but realistically (due to injuries or otherwise) has gotten demonstrably worse. If people want to say he's played about as expected and has been injured so they expect better next season, that's completely reasonable and I can get behind it, but I don't see any purpose in gassing him up and lying about objective results.

I don’t know why you’re picking timelines to fit a narrative. Just look at the seasons.

2022/2023 - .578 TS
2023/2024 - .577 TS
2024/2025 - .570 TS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/q/quickim01.html

And that’s with him becoming a full time PG. PGs have a lower league average TS vs SGs. He’s 200bps above league average efficiency at PG with high volume and he’s doing it on a team with no shooting.

What timelines, I'm picking his last 100+ games as a knick vs his time as a raptor. He dropped efficiency while taking 1.5 more FGA, so as I said from the outset, same, or worse. That .577 is lacking serious context, he put up .598 on the knicks and .564 as a raptor. So lets not be shifty and try and pool those together. We are talking his performance since becoming a raptor.

Which again, still does not prove "seriously good" numbers in any stretch.

My dude, it's called sample size and composition. Shooters go through ebbs and flows. Context and situations change. A mini-hot streak, SOS, or more transition opportunities can have the effect you are describing. He was .578 in the last full season in NY. In the season that he split, he shot the 3 at exactly .395 for both us and the Knicks, except that he took ~2 more threes with us. His 2pt FG went down 50bps at 2 more 2PA, but he also was able to get to the line 1 more time. He got back to his career average this season from 2. No reason for another "Siakam is the worst 3pt shooter of all time thread".

[Zeno]

It isn’t that I don’t like Ware but I feel like he is being a little overhyped here. Like where would he go in this year’s draft? Would you give up the 9th pick in this year’s draft for him? I feel like certain teams really know how to work the media for the prospects values.

[Scase]

I don’t know why you’re picking timelines to fit a narrative. Just look at the seasons.

2022/2023 - .578 TS
2023/2024 - .577 TS
2024/2025 - .570 TS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/q/quickim01.html

And that’s with him becoming a full time PG. PGs have a lower league average TS vs SGs. He’s 200bps above league average efficiency at PG with high volume and he’s doing it on a team with no shooting.

What timelines, I'm picking his last 100+ games as a knick vs his time as a raptor. He dropped efficiency while taking 1.5 more FGA, so as I said from the outset, same, or worse. That .577 is lacking serious context, he put up .598 on the knicks and .564 as a raptor. So lets not be shifty and try and pool those together. We are talking his performance since becoming a raptor.

Which again, still does not prove "seriously good" numbers in any stretch.

My dude, it's called sample size and composition. Shooters go through ebbs and flows. Context and situations change. A mini-hot streak, SOS, or more transition opportunities can have the effect you are describing. He was .578 in the last full season in NY. In the season that he split, he shot the 3 at exactly .395 for both us and the Knicks, except that he took ~2 more threes with us. His 2pt FG went down 50bps at 2 more 2PA, but he also was able to get to the line 1 more time. He got back to his career average this season from 2. No reason for another "Siakam is the worst 3pt shooter of all time thread".

Ok so if it's a sample size issue, why are you using small sample sizes to make your point that he's shooting just as well?

And for the 3rd or 4th time now, how does any of this, show any evidence of "seriously good numbers"? That's what all this was arguing, that at no point while playing for the raptors, no matter the sample size, or how you wish to chop it up, has he put up anything that could be considered "seriously good".

I have said numerous times now, I don't think he has played terribly by any stretch, so drop the strawman.

No reason for another "Siakam is the worst 3pt shooter of all time thread".

And since you and a handful of others just love to reference that thread. Feel free to reference the actual name instead of being intentionally obtuse.

Siakam is shooting the 3 at a historically bad rate, and has a chance to be one of the worst in NBA history.

It's not that hard to be accurate or truthful, especially if you want to be snarky.

[djsunyc]

how soon after the finals will we get the shams tweet?

[Tripod]

And those of us that wanted to trade OG for a massive pick package were brow beaten that Masai got the best package

And by massive you mean 3 crap Knick picks that were not even all guaranteed 1sts.

There was interest in OG beyond the Knicks if we hadn’t waited until the last minute to trade him.

That's what the Knicks offered a full year before we eventually traded him.

There was never this massive pick package for OG like you are pretending their was....or could have been.

[PushDaRock]

PG's have a 55.8 TS%, so he's still above average for his position as a Raptor.

True... but not as helpful as it might be to us in context, given the deplorable state of our offense. And, as you increase volume, positional average is less relevant, because you begin to support to large a proportion of team offense for that to matter.

IQ in 27 games as a starter for the Knicks put up 21.7 ppg 5 rpg and 4.9 apg on 58.9 TS%. So, he was actually more efficient as a starter than he was as the so called spark plug off the bench. In general, he's played better as a starter than he has as a bench player.

I wouldn't say "in general," so much as "in 2024." And that was primarily on the basis of setting a career-high in 3pt shooting (39.5%) as anything. He also set his career-high in 3pt volume during his partial season with us, and shot a similar volume this year. And a career-high in the RA. He was also useless from 3-23 feet.

So I don't know how much you want to make of that sample.

He's a useful player. His shooting is of particular value, so being cavalier with trading him (IF we trade him) would be a mistake. There, I agree.

No, I am saying he was better as a starter than off the bench as a Knick so the idea that he's less efficient as a starter than as a bench player isn't true.

[YogurtProducer]

You didn’t expect an unbiased opinion, did you?

People using league average TS% as a barometer also bothers the hell out of me.

Why do you hate TS% as a barometer? I agree btw but I just wanted to see if our reasoning is the same lol

League average vs positional.

You don't want to compare PGs to centres

Not just that, but role is incredibly important.

League average TS% encompasses all shots taken. These include put back dunks, wide open catch and shoot 3's, transition dunks, etc. The league average TS% is not a great comparison for guys who take harder shots, are put in worse positions, etc.

Like last year the leaders in TS% were Jarrett Allen, Jalen Duren, Gobert,, etc. - like Dugg said - mostly centers.

But we also had Christian braun and Keon Ellis in the 4th and 5th slots - aka guys who do next to no self creating (but props for finishing their opportunities).

But to Duff's point - you can just simply look at position and see what the average TS%'s are, which I have (based on basketballreference positions)

PG - 55.7
SG - 57.0
SF - 57.4
PF - 57.8
C - 60.7

By this metric - IQ has been an above average efficiency player, which should be obvious to anyone who actually like... watches the games.

Change this sample to be the top 100 players in terms of FGA's this year (per game, filtered for guys who played at least 918 minutes to include IQ) you see the TS% looks like this:

PG - 57.6
SG - 58.7
SF - 58.3
PF - 58.0
C - 60.1

So even here when looking at only higher usage guys, we see that IQ is average among high usage players. Which is not a bad thing by any means and should actually be a positive future sign for us. In fact, in that list there are 9 PGs who were more efficient than IQ was this year.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander - 0.637
Damian Lillard - 0.621
Stephen Curry - 0.618
Tyrese Haliburton - 0.616
Jalen Brunson - 0.605
Darius Garland - 0.6
Luka Dončić - 0.587
Jamal Murray - 0.584
James Harden - 0.582
Immanuel Quickley - 0.57
Trae Young - 0.567
De'Aaron Fox - 0.567
Cade Cunningham - 0.565
Ja Morant - 0.563
Tyrese Maxey - 0.562
De'Aaron Fox - 0.56
CJ McCollum - 0.55
Keyonte George - 0.539
LaMelo Ball - 0.536
Jalen Suggs - 0.536
Stephon Castle - 0.522
Fred VanVleet - 0.515
Dejounte Murray - 0.494

So like not to be a dick, but it is not surprising Scase is just incredibly biased here. We have VERY good reason to be excited about IQ's future contributions to this offense.

[Brinbe]

Ware is a nice piece but Riley likes his superstars and will always be in win-now mode if possible

I don't know if Herro/KD/Bam is a contender but the East will be wide open so who knows

[PushDaRock]

I don’t know why you’re picking timelines to fit a narrative. Just look at the seasons.

2022/2023 - .578 TS
2023/2024 - .577 TS
2024/2025 - .570 TS
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/q/quickim01.html

And that’s with him becoming a full time PG. PGs have a lower league average TS vs SGs. He’s 200bps above league average efficiency at PG with high volume and he’s doing it on a team with no shooting.

What timelines, I'm picking his last 100+ games as a knick vs his time as a raptor. He dropped efficiency while taking 1.5 more FGA, so as I said from the outset, same, or worse. That .577 is lacking serious context, he put up .598 on the knicks and .564 as a raptor. So lets not be shifty and try and pool those together. We are talking his performance since becoming a raptor.

Which again, still does not prove "seriously good" numbers in any stretch.

My dude, it's called sample size and composition. Shooters go through ebbs and flows. Context and situations change. A mini-hot streak, SOS, or more transition opportunities can have the effect you are describing. He was .578 in the last full season in NY. In the season that he split, he shot the 3 at exactly .395 for both us and the Knicks, except that he took ~2 more threes with us. His 2pt FG went down 50bps at 2 more 2PA, but he also was able to get to the line 1 more time. He got back to his career average this season from 2. No reason for another "Siakam is the worst 3pt shooter of all time thread".

I think he's trying to paint the picture that he feasted on bench players as a Knick and now is less efficient as a starter. But, like I've posted before he averaged 21.7 ppg on 58.9 TS% as a starter with the Knicks so the stats say otherwise towards that narrative.

[positivetension]

Ware is a nice piece but Riley likes his superstars and will always be in win-now mode if possible

I don't know if Herro/KD/Bam is a contender but the East will be wide open so who knows

That team is closer to the play-in than they are to contention. I feel like Bam is too young to be falling off but he did not have a great season this year.