Raptors NBA Draft Thread: Harrison Barnes

[Leolovinliberal]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

WHAT!?!?!??! You have obviously never seen Glen Rice play. I'm 39 and watched his entire career. Rice was a dead eye 3 point shooter, out to 25 feet, and several post up moves, could create his own shot and took it to the rim for monster jams on several occasions. He was a several time All Star. HB doesn't do one thing outstanding. He's a mediocre jump shooter that can literally do nothing else. HB couldn't carry Glen Rice's jock strap.

[fredericklove]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

WHAT!?!?!??! You have obviously never seen Glen Rice play. I'm 39 and watched his entire career. Rice was a dead eye 3 point shooter, out to 25 feet, and several post up moves, could create his own shot and took it to the rim for monster jams on several occasions. He was a several time All Star. HB doesn't do one thing outstanding. He's a mediocre jump shooter that can literally do nothing else. HB couldn't carry Glen Rice's jock strap.

Well it's true that Rice can hit shots any second any minute any hour in the game so he's not a good comparison for Barnes. But for you to say Barnes is a mediocre jump shooter who can't do anything else is a premature analysis. You ignore his defense and ignore on the fact that he's a willing rebounder.

[Undefeated]

I'm not convinced Barnes will be able to become a Joe Johnson type scorer without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard. Right now, we don't have one for the future - we have Bayless. All of those tools he uses such as pump-fakes and step backs come with being a good shooter. Being able to step back from the defender is elementary, really. But, being able to shake a lock-down defender to initiate a dribble penetration is not, unfortunately. He needs to learn to use both hands effectively in order to flourish.

Are we really basing this off the two games that Harrison Barnes struggled in the NCAA Tournament where he couldn't succeed without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard because Kendall Marshall was sideline with a wrist injury? If anything, Tyler Zeller and John Henson benefited the most starting with Marshall because he actually knew how to get the ball inside via pick-and-roll despite the defense jamming on the screen or hit them with the quick entry pass for the high-percentage two-pointer on a single coverage. Zeller and Henson were almost counter productive in those two games just as much if not more than Barnes. Roy Williams never adjusted his offense to feature Barnes more in screen-and-roll actions as the primary on-ball ball-handler, but continued to place the ball in the hands of his PG to get the ball inside to Zeller and Henson. Stilman White at best is a Division III PG, and he was the one running the offense for crying out loud trying to feed Zeller and Henson, but failed in doing so. He was trying to run the exact same inside-outside offense when the PG could barely make an entry pass, so that UNC's front-court could draw the double-team thus creating open looks on the perimeter for the wings like they did all year long, but it won't happen when the PG can't make a simple entry pass. It's hardly Barnes' fault for not being able to create when he barely had the ball in his hands against Kansas. It was only in the 2nd half he started to get his touches, and he was drawing fouls left and right off of dribble-penetration or screen-and-roll.

Even LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony doesn't shake their defender one-on-one. They use screens, much like Barnes has this season, to beat their initial defender and with their body control they're able to finish at the rim. And Barnes got a good left-hand. He regularly finishes with his left when in traffic.

[kmatrixg]

I'm not convinced Barnes will be able to become a Joe Johnson type scorer without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard. Right now, we don't have one for the future - we have Bayless. All of those tools he uses such as pump-fakes and step backs come with being a good shooter. Being able to step back from the defender is elementary, really. But, being able to shake a lock-down defender to initiate a dribble penetration is not, unfortunately. He needs to learn to use both hands effectively in order to flourish.

Are we really basing this off the two games that Harrison Barnes struggled in the NCAA Tournament where he couldn't succeed without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard because Kendall Marshall was sideline with a wrist injury? If anything, Tyler Zeller and John Henson benefited the most starting with Marshall because he actually knew how to get the ball inside via pick-and-roll despite the defense jamming on the screen or hit them with the quick entry pass for the high-percentage two-pointer on a single coverage. Zeller and Henson were almost counter productive in those two games just as much if not more than Barnes. Roy Williams never adjusted his offense to feature Barnes more in screen-and-roll actions as the primary on-ball ball-handler, but continued to place the ball in the hands of his PG to get the ball inside to Zeller and Henson. Stilman White at best is a Division III PG, and he was the one running the offense for crying out loud trying to feed Zeller and Henson, but failed in doing so. He was trying to run the exact same inside-outside offense when the PG could barely make an entry pass, so that UNC's front-court could draw the double-team thus creating open looks on the perimeter for the wings like they did all year long, but it won't happen when the PG can't make a simple entry pass. It's hardly Barnes' fault for not being able to create when he barely had the ball in his hands against Kansas. It was only in the 2nd half he started to get his touches, and he was drawing fouls left and right off of dribble-penetration or screen-and-roll.

Even LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony doesn't shake their defender one-on-one. They use screens, much like Barnes has this season, to beat their initial defender and with their body control they're able to finish at the rim. And Barnes got a good left-hand. He regularly finishes with his left when in traffic.

I actually wasn't basing it solely on those 2 games, but those games didn't help the fact that it eventually brought him back to earth after his great play to finish the season. It's well known that Barnes can't create his shot, let's put it plainly. His ball-handling needs work. And by your argument - Zeller and Henson also struggled - you make Marshall out to be a first team All-American who made those 3 the players they were. No doubt an offense is going to struggle without it's starting PG, but Barnes couldn't produce in the system as the number one scoring option in a featured role.

From one of the most respected basketball analysts of today, David Aldridge sums it up perfectly:

Barnes' skill is catching and shooting. He's a smooth perimeter talent, and at 6-foot-8 he's more than big enough to get his shot off against most pro threes. A team with a low-post option or a penetrating point guard could have a field day rotating the ball out to Barnes on the weakside.

"No question he's a catch-and-shoot guy," said an Eastern Conference exec. "He's not a slasher. He's not a good finisher at the basket. Doesn't look all that athletic. But he's going to look good. I have to believe he'll be all of 6-8, NBA body, he can shoot the ball and would be a willing defender. He didn't have a great year, but I still don't think it's going to hurt him."

The Tar Heels made the Elite Eight, but lost to Kansas. Barnes scored just 13 points on 5 of 14 shooting in that game, and when he tried to take over he couldn't get going. That game exemplified Carolina's struggles without point guard Kendall Marshall, who fractured his wrist during the tournament.
Scouts are almost apologetic when they describe their concerns about Barnes, who is by all accounts a solid young man. And that quality may have hurt his Draft position.

Without Marshall, Carolina didn't have anyone who could really create a shot for himself or others. Barnes couldn't really do it, either, but he was the best Carolina had, so he tried. It wound up hurting his numbers.

"What you ended up seeing was those bad shooting nights," said a Northwest Division executive. "He had several NCAA games where he just struggled. Some of that was being forced to do too much. He averaged about one assist a game, so you've got to be thinking, is that on him or is that the lack of scoring on that team?"

Said a Southeast Division talent evaluator: "They took a guy who was essentially a jump shooter, and at the end of the year they have him putting the ball on the [bleeping] ground and driving. Young fella, that's not what you do. What you do is knock down jumpers off two bounces, and off the catch."
Scouts also think Barnes may have felt obligated to live off of the hype that accompanied him out of high school to Chapel Hill.

"I think he should be an adequate defender, but to be honest, he's got to get over the fact that he was the high school player of the year and the greatest thing going, and the fact that he's no longer that," said a Pacific Division scout. "I don't know where his head's at. But he's a quality kid. No reason he can't figure it out. When he came to college I expected someone who was ahead of Shane Battier at that developmental stage, and Shane's had a pretty good career ... I never saw Harrison Barnes as LeBron James or Kobe Bryant or Jerry Stackhouse. I just saw a nice, solid player."

That isn't a bad thing, and scouts know that.

"I think Harrison could be a guy that we get down on and forget about, and then he has a solid, 15-year career," a Western Conference executive said. "You always want more from him, but he's talented enough and good enough that he's going to last. When you come in with so much hype, it's a disappointment when you don't live up to that."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_ ... index.html

[fredericklove]

The parts you bolded on Barnes' offensive skillset were all dependent, again, on one thing - his ability to improve his ball-handling.

...he should end up being a versatile scoring option who can catch the ball in different areas of the floor, whether it's posting up smaller players, catching the ball in the mid-range, running off screens, or being used in isolations and pick-and-rolls on the perimeter as he improves his ball-handling.

I'm not convinced Barnes will be able to become a Joe Johnson type scorer without the help of an elite, pass-first point guard. Right now, we don't have one for the future - we have Bayless. All of those tools he uses such as pump-fakes and step backs come with being a good shooter. Being able to step back from the defender is elementary, really. But, being able to shake a lock-down defender to initiate a dribble penetration is not, unfortunately. He needs to learn to use both hands effectively in order to flourish.

Like I said, I'm not against drafting Barnes because he is a deadly shooter. But, do we have the tools needed to develop his game and play into his current strengths to make sure he doesn't lose confidence? Not without making some big moves to bring in a great facilitator.

Not all offensive skillsets that the scout mentioned were all dependent on ball-handling, the scout referred to the iso and p&r on the perimeter as the sole skillsets that depends on improvements of his ball-handling, while other areas such as "catching the ball in different areas of the floor, whether it's posting up smaller players, catching the ball in the mid-range, running off screens" don't relate to handles, and they really don't.

But yes, I share your legit concerns whether his skills are translatable to the NBA, we'll see if he can in the NBA then.

[Undefeated]

I actually wasn't basing it solely on those 2 games, but those games didn't help the fact that it eventually brought him back to earth after his great play to finish the season. It's well known that Barnes can't create his shot, let's put it plainly. His ball-handling needs work. And by your argument - Zeller and Henson also struggled - you make Marshall out to be a first team All-American who made those 3 the players they were. No doubt an offense is going to struggle without it's starting PG, but Barnes couldn't produce in the system as the number one scoring option in a featured role.

Maybe Barnes can't create space off the bounce one-on-one, but how many times did he actually have the ball in his hands early in the shot-clock to do his thing? Because quite a few of his shot attempts were in the last half of the shot-clock which is why we saw a lot of his signature two dribble 17-foot pull-up jumper to get a shot off in time. And seriously, this yo-yo handles needs to stop. There simply aren't that many Small Forwards who are able to dance on their defender with their dribble in the NBA. Not even the best in the game. A lot of it is triple-threat with effective use of their dribbles. Barnes being able to protect the ball well enough in traffic using his off hand to shield the ball and keep it alive as he knifes and pick-and-rolls his way past, through and around the defense is still regarded as good ball-handling. That's difficult with how packed the paint is at the college level, and Barnes being able to get to the rim has been very impressive this year whether that's finishing directly or drawing contact for a pair of free-throws.

No, I'm not saying Kendall Marshall is that good. It has a lot to do with the system and how it's ran. That system was heavily revolved around the PG and the bigs. It focused on getting Henson and Zeller the ball repeatedly. Since the ball was always in Marshall's hands, it's obvious he'll stand out more than the wings like Barnes, P.J. Hariston and Reggie Bullock who were used as safety valves instead of secondary options.

[sh00n]

If our pick ends up staying where it's projected, I wouldn't mind Barnes falling to us. I'd be pretty pissed if we moved up and took him over MKG, Beal, or Lamb though. I watched him a lot this year and I don't remember ever coming away that impressed by him. I still think MKG is going to be the best player outside of Anthony Davis in this draft.

[kmatrixg]

I actually wasn't basing it solely on those 2 games, but those games didn't help the fact that it eventually brought him back to earth after his great play to finish the season. It's well known that Barnes can't create his shot, let's put it plainly. His ball-handling needs work. And by your argument - Zeller and Henson also struggled - you make Marshall out to be a first team All-American who made those 3 the players they were. No doubt an offense is going to struggle without it's starting PG, but Barnes couldn't produce in the system as the number one scoring option in a featured role.

Maybe Barnes can't create space off the bounce one-on-one, but how many times did he actually have the ball in his hands early in the shot-clock to do his thing? Because quite a few of his shot attempts were in the last half of the shot-clock which is why we saw a lot of his signature two dribble 17-foot pull-up jumper to get a shot off in time. And seriously, this yo-yo handles needs to stop. There simply aren't that many Small Forwards who are able to dance on their defender with their dribble in the NBA. Not even the best in the game. A lot of it is triple-threat with effective use of their dribbles. Barnes being able to protect the ball well enough in traffic using his off hand to shield the ball and keep it alive as he knifes and pick-and-rolls his way past, through and around the defense is still regarded as good ball-handling. That's difficult with how packed the paint is at the college level, and Barnes being able to get to the rim has been very impressive this year whether that's finishing directly or drawing contact for a pair of free-throws.

No, I'm not saying Kendall Marshall is that good. It has a lot to do with the system and how it's ran. That system was heavily revolved around the PG and the bigs. It focused on getting Henson and Zeller the ball repeatedly. Since the ball was always in Marshall's hands, it's obvious he'll stand out more than the wings like Barnes, P.J. Hariston and Reggie Bullock who were used as safety valves instead of secondary options.

There's no reason in arguing, you're convinced.

[fredericklove]

If our pick ends up staying where it's projected, I wouldn't mind Barnes falling to us. I'd be pretty pissed if we moved up and took him over MKG, Beal, or Lamb though. I watched him a lot this year and I don't remember ever coming away that impressed by him. I still think MKG is going to be the best player outside of Anthony Davis in this draft.

You don't remember? Those confident knocking down shots, putting the ball on the floor moments, and moments that he brings the game back for the team...geez, watch harder bro!

[sh00n]

If our pick ends up staying where it's projected, I wouldn't mind Barnes falling to us. I'd be pretty pissed if we moved up and took him over MKG, Beal, or Lamb though. I watched him a lot this year and I don't remember ever coming away that impressed by him. I still think MKG is going to be the best player outside of Anthony Davis in this draft.

You don't remember? Those confident knocking down shots, putting the ball on the floor moments, and moments that he brings the game back for the team...geez, watch harder bro!

I'm just not sold on Barnes. I have a weird feeling about him.

[Pooh_Jeter]

I don't like Barnes potential to be more than a role player.

I know a lot of people compared him to Rudy Gay, but he doesn't have the athleticism Rudy has. I do see some people calling his offensive game smooth, but it worries me that he doesn't have a great handle, doesn't finish around the basket well and it doesn't seem like he has great playmaking skills. You can get away with not having elite quickness/athleticism if you posess any of those things.

Like that scouting report said, seems like he is destined to be a spot up shooter who can provide some defense and rebounding. Certainly a serviceable player, but a huge upgrade on James Johnson? Not really.

[fredericklove]

No doubt an offense is going to struggle without it's starting PG, but Barnes couldn't produce in the system as the number one scoring option in a featured role.

That's because this system doesn't put Barnes into no.1 scoring option in the first place, it never has in this season. It's also the same system that relies heavily on plays running between' the PG and bigs as their main options, same sort of play sequences again and again, and hardly set any good screens for the wingers, rather, just put them in featured mode where they're just bystander, here, pass to the bigs first, wings laters.

This is why Barnes has to force shots cos there's no plays were running for him in a long stretch. The bigs are usually the 1st scoring option, thats how this system runs every year. Barnes just happens to average more points but never was the main guy to go to.

So if the system puts bigs and pgs as main priority, then how exactly can a wing suddenly change the system? Wings can't change the system, the coach can. But the wings are not the coaches, their role is to play within the system, do what the PGs tell them to do. So suddenly this system comes into the tourney without a PG, was there any adjustment made by the coach? No. A system that never put the wing as 1st option, how will the wing become a 1st option? Barnes is not an iso guy, he needed all those screens/p&r in order to be effect, even though Marshall can pass it real good, but setting screens and getting p&r are part of the big's job, have the bigs done any of that for barnes, no. So overall, did Coach William turn the system into a different style, no, he still kept trying to run the same PG to Bigs sequences in the tourney, but gambling it by using a D1 PG and hoping he'd make something out of nothing.

To put it this way, last year in late season, they actually put Barnes as no.1 scoring option, they kept setting hard screens for Barnes to get his shots off, always try to find him under the screens to shoot it, those plays were first priority from Coach William, so that's how Barnes gone on fire in late stretch last season, but this season it's becoming clear that the bigs are first option (they don't run plays for Barnes anymore). If a coach knows Barnes needs set plays in order to be affective, and can't put him in iso-situation cos it won't be as effective as him going off screens/p&r play, then its all on the coach's ability to change things. He's been criticized before that he wasn't able to adapt changes. Look at the year that Ed went down with injury, suddenly there's no solid bigs available. Its same this year, when William's system loses a big or a PG, it goes downhill cos he doesn't have a backup plan.

So Coach William just doesn't know how to use most out of his wings, he just wants to restrict them to spot-up shooters, so its unfair that Barnes gets all the blame and heat during the tourney, and there goes Coach William, so lucky that he didn't get the criticism like Barnes did, its like no one judges on his inability to adjust his system whenever the main PG or main big are out.

[fredericklove]

I don't like Barnes potential to be more than a role player.

I know a lot of people compared him to Rudy Gay, but he doesn't have the athleticism Rudy has. I do see some people calling his offensive game smooth, but it worries me that he doesn't have a great handle, doesn't finish around the basket well and it doesn't seem like he has great playmaking skills. You can get away with not having elite quickness/athleticism if you posess any of those things.

Like that scouting report said, seems like he is destined to be a spot up shooter who can provide some defense and rebounding. Certainly a serviceable player, but a huge upgrade on James Johnson? Not really.

No one compared him to Rudy Gay's game. People compare him to Rudy Gay's season, comparing of how their season has ended. So don't get it mixed up. He doesn't have great handles for iso, doesn't mean he can't create shots for himself. He does finish around the basket well, when he goes up he takes contact well, so where you wanna argue is his inability to go iso to go str8 to the hole, that's where he has problem with. So its not the finishing ability around the basket as main problem, so don't get it mixed up again.

its true, he's a poor playmaker, probably the worst part that I hate about him, I'm definitely sure its a huge upgrade on JJ. How can you say its not? Shootings? JJ can't shoot. Barnes can, and he can help spread the floor for others too. Its part of the reason why BC wants a 2 way SF that can shoot. That's a huge upgrade imo.

[bonjovi0308]

doesnt have a quick first step and cant create his own shot? sounds like our sg

[RomaniaLuvTR]

90 % i believe..i still believe he`s the perfect SF for our future

[Pooh_Jeter]

No one compared him to Rudy Gay's game. People compare him to Rudy Gay's season, comparing of how their season has ended. So don't get it mixed up. He doesn't have great handles for iso, doesn't mean he can't create shots for himself. He does finish around the basket well, when he goes up he takes contact well, so where you wanna argue is his inability to go iso to go str8 to the hole, that's where he has problem with. So its not the finishing ability around the basket as main problem, so don't get it mixed up again.

its true, he's a poor playmaker, probably the worst part that I hate about him, I'm definitely sure its a huge upgrade on JJ. How can you say its not? Shootings? JJ can't shoot. Barnes can, and he can help spread the floor for others too. Its part of the reason why BC wants a 2 way SF that can shoot. That's a huge upgrade imo.

I guess I should have been more clear, I was comparing him to Rudy Gay in the way his stock fell going into the draft. But, Gay had the elite athleticism to fall back on.

If he doesn't have the ability and mindset to slash to the hoop it mitigates whether he is good or bad at finishing through contact/around the basket.

I'd rather have Barnes than Johnson simply for the upside Barnes still possesses. That being said, are you saying that Barnes is a better defender, rebounder, playmaker and ISO player than JJ right now?

[fredericklove]

No one compared him to Rudy Gay's game. People compare him to Rudy Gay's season, comparing of how their season has ended. So don't get it mixed up. He doesn't have great handles for iso, doesn't mean he can't create shots for himself. He does finish around the basket well, when he goes up he takes contact well, so where you wanna argue is his inability to go iso to go str8 to the hole, that's where he has problem with. So its not the finishing ability around the basket as main problem, so don't get it mixed up again.

its true, he's a poor playmaker, probably the worst part that I hate about him, I'm definitely sure its a huge upgrade on JJ. How can you say its not? Shootings? JJ can't shoot. Barnes can, and he can help spread the floor for others too. Its part of the reason why BC wants a 2 way SF that can shoot. That's a huge upgrade imo.

I guess I should have been more clear, I was comparing him to Rudy Gay in the way his stock fell going into the draft. But, Gay had the elite athleticism to fall back on.

If he doesn't have the ability and mindset to slash to the hoop it mitigates whether he is good or bad at finishing through contact/around the basket.

I'd rather have Barnes than Johnson simply for the upside Barnes still possesses. That being said, are you saying that Barnes is a better defender, rebounder, playmaker and ISO player than JJ right now?

Gay had the elite athleticism to fall back on. It's kind of in the same scenario that Barnes' stock fell out of top 5 but Barnes has his shooting ability to fall back on, otherwise he wouldn't be projected as 6-7 range right now.

No, I'm saying he's a better scorer and shooter, and a more 2-way forward than JJ. Rebounding wise, that has yet to be determined so we'll see in the NBA. In terms of defense, Barnes will never have the solid weak-side D that JJ has, but man-to-man defense I see Barnes will be better because he doesn't gamble much, rather really stays tight on his man. JJ at times tends to gamble for the steals and sometimes takes his guy off. But of cos, JJ has better defensive skills right now. Playmaking will always be the main weakness for Barnes, but in terms of iso, I don't see JJ can do anything on iso, as bad as Barnes is on iso he can still create space to get his shots off against his man. JJ can't create anything on iso.

[Undefeated]

There's no reason in arguing, you're convinced.

Uh, okay? If you say you did actually watch the games, then what I've said would've been apparent to you instead of relying on the scouting report. Others who have followed UNC and Barnes closely have said the same thing. Barnes was a number one ranked prospect in the nation per ESPN in 2010, so he's a good ball player. We've seen him create off the dribble against other top prospects in games such as the Jordan Brand Classic and McDonald's All-American which leads me to believe, it's more of the system rather than the player. You don't come close to beating Kevin Durant in a game of one-on-one with a poor skill-set. Now, I'm not saying Barnes is Kobe Bryant like he was projected out of High School, but the shot-creating abilities are there somewhere. It's a huge exaggeration that Barnes can't create.

[AbC?]

Best case scenario Luol Deng with better shooting and worse defense.

[TheToothFairy]

This guy screams Glen Rice to me

WHAT!?!?!??! You have obviously never seen Glen Rice play. I'm 39 and watched his entire career. Rice was a dead eye 3 point shooter, out to 25 feet, and several post up moves, could create his own shot and took it to the rim for monster jams on several occasions. He was a several time All Star. HB doesn't do one thing outstanding. He's a mediocre jump shooter that can literally do nothing else. HB couldn't carry Glen Rice's jock strap.

Who references a player who hasn't played in almost 10 years Einstein? I have seen Rice since his days with Rumeal Robinson thank you. I am also older than you.

Rice was. #4 pick 6'8 SF Known for being a good shooter and not much else. You are overstating his shot creation and dunking prowess severly.

Barnes and Rice averaged about the same ppg as a sophomore . A Barnes Rice comparison is no stretch whether you agree or not